[Phpwebsite-developers] Re: phpWebSite face lift

[Michael H. R. <po...@mi...>]

> I'd personally prefer keeping H1 and H3 instead of introducing H2  
> into the templates as the title and sub title, as that will break  
> less themes and certainly it won't break my themes since I rely on  
> the templates containing H1 and H3. It's a long established tradition  
> I don't think we should change. I use sIFR replacement on H1 and H3 a  
> lot for instance so chaning to H2 will give me crap fonts again.

As I recall, I only changed the heading tag in the Skeleton module (I
really don't understand why H2 has been left out in the beginning). That
said I would never make such a change to any of the other modules. I am
well aware that such a change would result in a great impact, that would
affect sites like yours, running some sort of replacement for the
heading tags.


> You've introduced more tables. Generally, that's to be avoided. In  
> particular, in the comments module, it makes the form wider. Please  
> be aware that some users are using fixed width themes that may only  
> have room for narrow layouts of 400px. Creating forms which have the  
> label alongside the text entry causes problems for those themes. I  
> also think adding tables to layout forms is retrogressive.  
> Personally, I'd be inclined to use a definition list for form layout.

That's right, I have introduced more tables. But I have also removed
some, replacing them with div's. I am trying to go for a design where we
use tables for lists (a list of users, a list of links, a list of notes
etc.) and tables for input forms (add user, add link, add note etc.). If
you look across phpWebsite today you will see 2 different layout
standards for input forms: 1) labels and input fields are listed
vertical and 2) label and input field are listed horizontal in a grid
layout. In the second approach it is rather common to use a table to
construct the grid. Generally we should only use one approach, and I
have chosen to go for the grid layout. The last time this was discussed
I sensed a positive attitude for the grid layout, which is used in a
vast number of CVS designs today, and I certainly don’t find this to be
retrogressive.

I know lots of users a using a fixed width theme. That's why I have
added the style "formtable" to all of the input tables I have created,
and added the class "label" to the first column and "value" to the
second. Using those styles, it should be possible to style the input
forms so they doesn't break a fixed width layout.

I know the change to the comments module is not optimal. I worked with
this small input form for hours, trying different approaches. I finally
decided to stick with the grid layout, but if you could come up with a
more suitable design, please let me know.

If there is a great opposition against the grid layout in the phpWebSite
community, I will be happy to remove it, and change it to a vertical
look. Personally I find the grid layout to be more tempting and I feel
it has a more professional look. But this is my personal opinion, and if
the majority feels different, then I am more than willing to drop the
grid layout.


> If it can be avoided, I'd rather not use inline styles if we're  
> defining a set of classes now. Seems pointless.

Well not to me. I personally think that inline styles can be rather
useful. In an ideal world, I would have reworked the html design
entirely, causing all existing themes to be deprecated, but on the same
time added the ability for styling phpWebSite ala csszengarden. This is
however not a suitable approach. Like I mentioned in my previous mail,
my first priority was to ensure, that almost all of my changes would
work with older css files and those themes already developed to
phpWebSite. That's why I have used some inline styles, which mainly
replaces existing html attributes like valign, align and nowrap.


> I noticed you'd added 'datatable', 'label', 'value' and 'formtable'  
> classes. These need to be formalised and documented so that users who  
> may have defined them already in their own themes know they are used.  
> We shouldn't introduce CSS classes without defining a set that we're  
> going to stick with going forward in to Fallout. Saying that, I don't  
> know if Matt's defined a set yet for Fallout so now is possibly our  
> chance. :-)

I have introduced the classes you mention hoping that they can give
users and designers a more powerful way of styling phpWebSite. It is my
plan that I will try to update the majority of existing 0.10.x modules
to use the new styles. It is very important to me to stress out, that
the new styles are meant to be optional, and that I don't intent to
introduce more styles. Once again I would like to point out, that my
decision is due to the fact that I don't intend to completely rework the
existing design in 0.10.x. I will leave this to Matt and the upcoming
Fallout.

What I have seen in Fallout so far, Matt has given the user interface an
extensive new look and feel. Take the new controlpanel for instance,
with the tabbed interface and matching styles. I am a bit worried about
the consequences if we try to mix styles between 0.10.x and Fallout. I
believe that styling Fallout will be a whole new experience compared to
what we have been used to. I have no plans of revolutionize the look and
feel of 0.10.x, but only intend to give it a small face lift, trying to
achieve a more consistent design between the different modules.

In relation to the naming of the few styles I have introduced, I have
not come across those names in any of the existing modules or any 3rd
party modules. I hope and cross my fingers that it should be safe to go
with the new names.


I would like to say, that in my years of experience working with user
interface and html design, I have realised that this is one of the most
sensitive and controversial areas of developing software. I know that
some of my changes could cause a lot of commotion in the community, but
please keep in mind that I only plan to give phpWebSite a more
consistent look and feel. I do not plan change the overall look of
phpWebSite and I do not plan to introduce a table-less design.

- Michael (TechElephant)