Use of hyphen (-) in Nordic languages
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While wading through all of the existing Language files to standardize the way "PhpGedView" and "GEDCOM" are written, I came across some other inconsistencies in the Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish language files.
I noticed that some compound words are not written consistently. For example, "GEDCOM file" is seen three different ways, in the SAME language file, and sometimes even in the same topic:
GEDCOM fil
GEDCOMfil
GEDCOM-fil
I know that in German the third method is quite acceptable as is the second (but less so nowadays), while in English it's not, and only the first is correct.
Please guide me: What's correct in Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish? If there's a choice, what's more correct? Does it depend on whether the root word is borrowed from a foreign language or not?
I'll go through the Nordic language files to fix the inconsistencies according to your guidance.
Regards,
Gerry Kroll (canajun2eh)
Hi Gerry,
Thanks for pointing out to the translators that their files may contain inconsistencies in writing the same words. As we are responsible for the content, so it can be expected from us to check and correct consistency, grammar and spelling.
Furthermore I think it would be very useful to have some "rules" on translation, like, what you say, how some words are written, use of headers, use of breaks, etc. Also some documentation on how the help text is built up, especially in the help menu, would help a lot.
I would very much like to hear your findings on fixing the english language files, as it may be of use for us.
Best regards,
Boudewijn.
Hi
It's not easy to give a straight out answer to this subject. I norwegian we do not split word combinations like you do in english.
So in norwegian "GEDCOM fil" is wrong. "GEDCOM file" should in norwegian be translated as "GEDCOMfil", but here we have a mix with upper/lower case that is not good. So the best translation is here "GEDCOM-fil". The hyphen is also used when we find the word combination difficult to read ("gedcomfil" / "gedcom-fil").
GEDCOM is a "tech" word that give no meaning for many visitors of PGV sites, so I have sometimes tried to use other words like "genealogy database". As a translator I find it hard to just translate a word/sentences, I have to look at where it's used (header, menu, button, help line(s) or help text) and the situation it's used. And sometime I have to make a choise between correct norwegian grammar and the integrity of PGV.
We have other words like the database word "record", e.g. "No records found". A better translation for the visitors is "No names found", "No sources found".... At the end, we must remember that PGV is made for the users and not the programmers!
The translator is responsable for the translation in their own language and I find it odd that other should fix the translation in a just technical way... It's better to bring the subject to translator forum and let the translators decide what to do in their own language files.
Best regards,
Geir Hkon
I agree with Geir Hkon on this. The swedish has the same rules as norwegian on that point. And i think that there is some of the faults you mention above in the swedish files.
But it hade been much simpler if the english file had been consistent so if you get the english file consitent. It will be much easier to get the other languages right to.
regards
Patrik
Thank you all for your valuable input.
As Boudewijn has pointed out, translation is a very difficult task that is best left to those intimately familiar with the subject language. What might look "wrong" to a foreigner most often is perfectly acceptable to someone who grew up with the language.
The only reason I was even looking at those "foreign-to-me" language files was because I had to get consistency into the use of GEDCOM and PhpGedView. Unfortunately, the recent .sv. files accidentally undid all the tedious work I did. (I can do it again for you, Patrik.)
I felt that I could do that for everybody, thereby saving most overworked translators a lot of tedious work.
The current English help file has an explanation of the term GEDCOM. It's not techno-speak, and it's not a word either. Boudewijn did an excellent job of converting the English words to Dutch. I can read Dutch, but don't ask me to speak or write in it.
I believe I'm being forced into becoming the person most "responsible" for English. At least, that's the impression I'm getting from John. Somebody's got to do it; it might as well be me.
Regards,
Gerry Kroll (in Canada)
I shall fix it back again. But I must say that it wont look good but for consistency so. But i don't like that you change things without telling. I also did alot of fixing to get consistent with the hyphen which i have to do again.
regards
Patrik
Patrik:
Thank you for changing things back. That's a great deal of work!
I agree with you that no matter which way you look at it, "GEDCOM" is very ugly. As Boudewijn points out, "GEDCOM" and all its technical details is completely meaningless to most ordinary users. Most users aren't the least bit interested in all of the underlying stuff -- they just want an application that works and is easy to use, preferably without reading any documentation.
We all need to work towards eliminating the technical jargon from Help files. Let's look at this after the dust has settled a little on PGV 3.3.
Regards,
Gerry Kroll.
I agree that we have to eliminate the GEDCOM where it is possible. But i don't have the time just now. I hope I will get the time to translate the lines i haven't in the help text and change the lines that have been changed.
Don't forget to update the lang_changlog file when you do changes to the lang files. Is suppose that small corrections to the en files doesn't have to be posted there but any significant changes has to be stated there as it is that we use to no where to go back and retranslate.
Regards
Patrik Hansson
Patrik:
I thank you. That a great deal of very tedious work!
Let's start a new discussion thread on eliminating GEDCOM from most of the text. The .no. files went a good way towards that by using "slektsfil" in many places where the English used "GEDCOM file". I feel that this a quite acceptable way of handling the issue.
There's a common misconception among translators that I've dealt with in my working career. For some reason, they have felt that they must always translate word-for-word from one language to the other. That might very well be the case when you're doing verbal translations, but when it comes to the written word, it's much better to translate the concept rather than the actual words, especially when the translator is familiar with the subject.
In summary:
I think you shouldn't use the term GEDCOM unless it's absolutely necessary. When the meaning of what you need to translate is lost without the word GEDCOM, you might want to consider providing a link back to the Help text on GEDCOM, so that GEDCOM is in blue (or whatever the Theme prescribes), and becomes clickable.
There are far too many occurrences of GEDCOM in those files! I think there are over 200, but I long lost count.
Best wishes,
Gerry Kroll.
Very right. The target audience determines the way it's written in a specific language. For that reason I seldom use GEDCOM in user oriented help text, but genealogy or familytree instead.
I also see that still a lot has to be done.
For instance: Which new user will understand what "GEDCOM INDI record ID" is?
Boudewijn.
In regard to "GEDCOM fil", "GEDCOMfil" and "
GEDCOM-fil" Gerry Kroll said:
> Please guide me: What's correct in Danish,
> Norwegian, and Swedish? If there's a choice,
> what's more correct? Does it depend on whether
> the root word is borrowed from a foreign language
> or not?
In correct Danish you really can't use a mixed case word like "GEDCOMfil" or a mixed case hyphenation like "GEDCOM-fil", it would have to be "gedcomfil", or if you insist on using all capital GEDCOM you'll have to separate the words like "GEDCOM filen".
Arne:
Thank you for your valuable insight. I believe we're all in agreement that mixed-case "words" are not only ugly but also not acceptable, especially if one of the components of such a "word" is an acronym.
"GEDCOM" is an acronym, and in the English version of the language files I'll insist that, like all acronyms, it be in capital letters. Likewise, I have insisted that "PGV" is not at all acceptable in the English files, and that the program name is written "PhpGedView" everywhere.
I'm leaving the translations from English up to the experts, and trust that they will follow the practices mentioned above. Occasionally, something leaps out at me as I glance through the non-English files. I'm no longer changing non-English files, and instead contact the last developer who posted changes.
Regards,
Gerry Kroll
I do not agree with Arne Eckmanns statement:
"In correct Danish you really can't use a mixed case word like GEDCOMfil or a mixed case hyphenation like GEDCOM-fil it would have to be gedcomfil, or if you insist on using all capital GEDCOM you'll have to separate the words like GEDCOM filen".
When you pair abbrevations and acronyms with another word, you MUST use hyphenation. That is to say that GEDCOM-fil is the correct way to write it.
Here are the rules with som examples:
In Danish you use hyphenation when abbreviations and words are paired. For example: e-mail must be written with a hyphen because the letter ‘e’ is an abbreviation for electronic. (see Retskrivningsordbogen, 3. udg., 2001, s. 724, § 63.3). Likewise you would write the following terms with a hyphen: tv-program, skole-tv, VM-kamp, hf-elev, 2.-plads, B.T.-læsere and ph.d.-studerende.
If words like e-mail are paired with yet another word like address, you would use a hyphen more, like: e-mail-addresse (see. Retskrivningsordbogen, 3. udg., 2001, s. 726, § 63.7.a). Further examples are: S-togs-station and skole-tv-program.
GEDCOM is an abbreviation or rather an acronym for GEnealogical Data COMmunication, and should therefore be written with uppercase letters. When paired with another word it is correct Danish to write it: GEDCOM-fil.
Best regards
joehansen