Hope that this is the right forum to post his question.
Did a search for de facto relationship and did not come up with any satisfactory results. Perhaps you could also point me in the right direction if a reference exist in the documentation.
I am not sure if a de facto relationship as a definition exists outside of Australia but it is one here that has legal ramifications in terms of property and other rights. Basically it covers couples living together but not married.
My interest though is how to flag this in PGV - I've seen a Registered Relationship tag somewhere but can't find it now. The difficulty is that (from my limited experience with the program) is that you can only link (in terms of relationships) a wife or husband to an individual through marriage. The other is that de facto relationships are not necessarily registered ones, one can be in a de facto relationship without it being registered.
Here are some definitions as an example (from http://www.law4u.com.au/cgi-bin/factsheet_right.asp?article_id=476\) :
" Since June 1999, the definition has been widened to cover ALL relationships between two adults (over the age of 18) who:
* live together as a couple; and
* are not married; and
* are not siblings or a parent or child of each other.
This means that homosexual couples are now covered by this law.
Domestic relationships
The new law also refers to domestic relationships. It defines these as:
* a de facto relationship; or
* a "close personal relationship" between two adults who live together and provide "domestic support and personal care". Note, if this care and support is provided for a fee or through a government scheme then the relationship is not a "domestic relationship".
A domestic relationship therefore includes relationships between siblings, and parents and children.
If you are in a domestic relationship you have the same rights under this new law in relation to maintenance and property division as a person in a de facto relationship."
On the same related topic, how does one annotate children born out of wedlock before de facto relationships were recognised?
Also how are gay relationships handled?
Thank you heaps once again for your assistance
Jean
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Anonymous
-
2009-09-01
Jean
A couple of things:
1 - you are right, you can only enter wife/husband relationships, or at least they are the terms that will be displayed. There are outstanding Feature Requests to somehow allow alternative descriptors (like "partner, etc) but its a complex area, and as far as I know no-one has felt up to tackling it yet
2 - to describe the legal nature of the relationship, when you add a "marriage" there is a drop-down for 'Type' that allows selection of Religious, Civil, or Registered Partnership
3 - If there is no actual legal relationship (except perhaps by length of time living together), there is the _NMR tag (Not Married). This can also have a "Type", but in this case (because (NMR is not a standard GEDCOM tag) it is free-form. Enter whatever you want.
4 - Children born out of wedlock - use 3, above (unless the parents later married). ALL children have a mother and father somehow, but you can leave out the father if you wish. You could use no FAM tag at all, but I find that leaves key information out of the INDI display that I would like to see.
5 - Gay relationships. I would again use _NMR - but one partner will still be called "wife". This is a compromise because PGV (and 99% of all fam hist software) bases its structure on the GEDCOM standard. This was created by the LDS Church, so does have a strongly traditional bias. The standard is long overdue for an update, but that seems unlikely to happen.
6 - Nothing unique to AUS about 'de facto', Most countries (at least in the western world) have it or something similar.
7 - If like many people, you want to propose some changes in this area, don't forget to allow for the requirements of virtually every language and culture in the known world :-)
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I should perhaps have better phrased my post - couples living together & not married commol;y referred to as de facto relationships in Australia.
It makes you wonder because there must be some cultures around the world where this live-in arrangement is the norm and official union by marriage out of the ordinary.
Polygamy must be thorny issue too.- food for thought.
Cheers.
Jean
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
While I am not condoning it, I recently heard that polygamy is the global norm for 80+% of the population.
"
According to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook derived from George P. Murdock’s Ethnographic Atlas recorded the marital composition of 1231 societies, from 1960-1980. Of these societies, 186 societies were monogamous. 1041 were polygynous.
"
The fact was being used to consider whether this contributes to longer breast-feeding!
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I'm still using 4.22 - any changes in the new version to accommodate partners/companions/de facto etc..
Jean
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Anonymous
-
2010-02-04
Not in the current 4.2.3 version, but yes, there is a change coming in the next release to include 'partner' where appropriate instead of husband / wife.
No planned release date for that version yet though.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
In Canada and USA, that "de facto" relationship is a "common law marriage". A "real" marriage ceremony has not taken place, and the partners have simply agreed to live together as if they were married. The gender of the partners is not relevant, at least everywhere in Canada. The partners might have had a marriage ceremony of some sort, but it did not occur in the presence of a person licenced to perform marriages.
I believe (although I'm not so sure about this) that in the UK that type of relationship is also called "common law".
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Here in Norway the Marriage Act was amended last year and is now "gender neutral" for all intends and purposes except some adoption issues. I have tweeked my PGV records for our family to show husband and husband by adding both 1 HUSB @I3@ and 1 WIFE @I3@ to the family record. Other desktop programs are whining when I try to import it but I think it looks nice in PGV ;-)
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Hi
Hope that this is the right forum to post his question.
Did a search for de facto relationship and did not come up with any satisfactory results. Perhaps you could also point me in the right direction if a reference exist in the documentation.
I am not sure if a de facto relationship as a definition exists outside of Australia but it is one here that has legal ramifications in terms of property and other rights. Basically it covers couples living together but not married.
My interest though is how to flag this in PGV - I've seen a Registered Relationship tag somewhere but can't find it now. The difficulty is that (from my limited experience with the program) is that you can only link (in terms of relationships) a wife or husband to an individual through marriage. The other is that de facto relationships are not necessarily registered ones, one can be in a de facto relationship without it being registered.
Here are some definitions as an example (from http://www.law4u.com.au/cgi-bin/factsheet_right.asp?article_id=476\) :
" Since June 1999, the definition has been widened to cover ALL relationships between two adults (over the age of 18) who:
* live together as a couple; and
* are not married; and
* are not siblings or a parent or child of each other.
This means that homosexual couples are now covered by this law.
Domestic relationships
The new law also refers to domestic relationships. It defines these as:
* a de facto relationship; or
* a "close personal relationship" between two adults who live together and provide "domestic support and personal care". Note, if this care and support is provided for a fee or through a government scheme then the relationship is not a "domestic relationship".
A domestic relationship therefore includes relationships between siblings, and parents and children.
If you are in a domestic relationship you have the same rights under this new law in relation to maintenance and property division as a person in a de facto relationship."
On the same related topic, how does one annotate children born out of wedlock before de facto relationships were recognised?
Also how are gay relationships handled?
Thank you heaps once again for your assistance
Jean
Jean
A couple of things:
1 - you are right, you can only enter wife/husband relationships, or at least they are the terms that will be displayed. There are outstanding Feature Requests to somehow allow alternative descriptors (like "partner, etc) but its a complex area, and as far as I know no-one has felt up to tackling it yet
2 - to describe the legal nature of the relationship, when you add a "marriage" there is a drop-down for 'Type' that allows selection of Religious, Civil, or Registered Partnership
3 - If there is no actual legal relationship (except perhaps by length of time living together), there is the _NMR tag (Not Married). This can also have a "Type", but in this case (because (NMR is not a standard GEDCOM tag) it is free-form. Enter whatever you want.
4 - Children born out of wedlock - use 3, above (unless the parents later married). ALL children have a mother and father somehow, but you can leave out the father if you wish. You could use no FAM tag at all, but I find that leaves key information out of the INDI display that I would like to see.
5 - Gay relationships. I would again use _NMR - but one partner will still be called "wife". This is a compromise because PGV (and 99% of all fam hist software) bases its structure on the GEDCOM standard. This was created by the LDS Church, so does have a strongly traditional bias. The standard is long overdue for an update, but that seems unlikely to happen.
6 - Nothing unique to AUS about 'de facto', Most countries (at least in the western world) have it or something similar.
7 - If like many people, you want to propose some changes in this area, don't forget to allow for the requirements of virtually every language and culture in the known world :-)
Thanks very much kiwi_pgv, very helpful indeed..
"Nothing unique to AUS about 'de facto',"
I should perhaps have better phrased my post - couples living together & not married commol;y referred to as de facto relationships in Australia.
It makes you wonder because there must be some cultures around the world where this live-in arrangement is the norm and official union by marriage out of the ordinary.
Polygamy must be thorny issue too.- food for thought.
Cheers.
Jean
While I am not condoning it, I recently heard that polygamy is the global norm for 80+% of the population.
"
According to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook derived from George P. Murdock’s Ethnographic Atlas recorded the marital composition of 1231 societies, from 1960-1980. Of these societies, 186 societies were monogamous. 1041 were polygynous.
"
The fact was being used to consider whether this contributes to longer breast-feeding!
Hi
I'm still using 4.22 - any changes in the new version to accommodate partners/companions/de facto etc..
Jean
Not in the current 4.2.3 version, but yes, there is a change coming in the next release to include 'partner' where appropriate instead of husband / wife.
No planned release date for that version yet though.
In Canada and USA, that "de facto" relationship is a "common law marriage". A "real" marriage ceremony has not taken place, and the partners have simply agreed to live together as if they were married. The gender of the partners is not relevant, at least everywhere in Canada. The partners might have had a marriage ceremony of some sort, but it did not occur in the presence of a person licenced to perform marriages.
I believe (although I'm not so sure about this) that in the UK that type of relationship is also called "common law".
Here in Norway the Marriage Act was amended last year and is now "gender neutral" for all intends and purposes except some adoption issues. I have tweeked my PGV records for our family to show husband and husband by adding both 1 HUSB @I3@ and 1 WIFE @I3@ to the family record. Other desktop programs are whining when I try to import it but I think it looks nice in PGV ;-)