I just fixed someone who I'd previously put under the wrong parents. I got it straightened out after reading some older posts but I'd like to write a Wiki about doing this and want to be sure I have my facts straight.
It seems to me, when a new person is added as a child/sibling/parent/spouse of an existing INDI, that person gets a FAMC or FAMS event and that FAMC/FAMS record is updated to list that INDI. Further INDI additions result in the creation of the other FAM record for that INDI. Is there any case where both records get created together?
What I did at first was change the INDI's father to the correct one. That seems to have created a whole new family (with his mother marrying twice or something like that, probably because the mother was unchanged when I saved that change). It was just dumb thinking on my part. I ended up cleaning that up, I think.
Anyway, I'd like to describe how this works in the Wiki to keep people from making this mistake, and any comments I can get on what the consequences are of doing this wrong would be helpful. What if the INDI was added as a brother instead of as a child or a father? Is there a good reason for being able to change one parent of an INDI, or can everything be done by redefining the family?
You've got me thoroughly confused, in short order. Repairing an incorrect addition of any person to a family is easy-peasy, what with the programmers' addition of the CHANGE FAMILY MEMBERS function under the EDIT FAMILY feature.
Navigate to the family to which the HUSB/WIFE/CHIL is incorrectly attached. Select EDIT > CHANGE FAMILY MEMBERS and select the HUSB/WIFE/CHIL(s) that you wish to remove from this family. SAVE.
Usually, I will have already opened the INDI which I intend to modify in a new tab or window if no correct FAM exists, or if the correct FAM unit already exists, then I open that FAM record in the tab/window. After saving the removal (above), open the FAM record (if exists), select EDIT > CHANGE FAMILY MEMBERS and add the HUSB/WIFE/CHIL correctly, OR, if not existing, use the CLOSE RELATIVES tab for the INDI and select on of the correct methods of addition (HUSB/WIFE using existing, or new HUSB/WIFE) or add to an existing family.
Does this help you?
"Repairing an incorrect addition of any person to a family is easy-peasy, what with the programmers' addition of the CHANGE FAMILY MEMBERS function under the EDIT FAMILY feature."
Agreed. But it's not obvious, so I want to add it to the Wiki. The user made the mistake entering an INDI so it's maybe not all that crazy to think he'll try to fix it in the INDI, rather than switching over to FAM.
Say someone adds an INDI as the son of the wrong father (who has a wife). Eventually, possibly after many other people have been added, realizes mistake, thinks "OK, I chose the wrong father to add this guy under, so let me go back and change his father. That should fix it." Conveniently, the 'Family with parents" tab of Quick Update allows that. Obviously the actual effect of that is to create yet another incorrect family with the old (wrong) mother and the new father.
So, I'll try to rephrase the questions:
1) Is there actually a good use for changing a parent on that QU screen? I know Quick Update isn't universally liked.
2) What are the consequences of doing what I initially did? How many other FAMs or INDIs might be affected?
3) What else should I know before I try to describe the right/wrong process in the Wiki? I'd like to describe why changing the parent is wrong, and not just say that it is wrong.
Pls. read the Wiki entries on Editing People and Editing Families first. Any clarification or addition to the Wiki is welcome, but in my experience it is always better to describe the correct pathway rather than to explain, what you did wrong.
The "Quick Update" is an unfinished tool, and it is safer not to use it.
In your posts, you write:
"someone who I'd previously put under the wrong parents."…. The correct consideration here is a FAMILY, and the statement "someone who I's previously added to a wrong Family" makes it easier to understand, what to do.
Similarly, "is added as a child/sibling/parent/spouse of an existing INDI", is in fact adding "as a child/sibling/parent/spouse of an existing INDI to a new or existing FAM-ily".
This should be always underlined, as it makes clear, that the relationships in GEDCOM exist almost solely in Families (with a minor exception of Associates). Any change to relationship must be done to a FAM-ily record (and for confusing reasons is also double-recorded in INDI-vidual record).
I hope it helps
Anton, to answer your questions:
1) No. As you said yourself, "the actual effect of that is to create yet another incorrect family with the old (wrong) mother and the new father. "
2) I can't tell from here what you initially did. You said "What I did at first was change the INDI's father to the correct one.", but you didn't say HOW you did it. It sounds from those words like you edited raw GEDCOM data, whcih is not good, unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing.
3) Isn't it best to just explain what SHOULD be done, rather than confusing users with explanations of why every alternative is wrong? The right way is as Stephen describes.
Sorry - didn't mean to criticize, if you viewed it that way. I was simply totally baffled by your explanation (or lack thereof).
I'm with KIWI and Marek
1) Quick update is a BAD bit of programming, and is disabled on my sites because of its ability to screw things up quickly and its lack of sourcing.
2) It has been argued here, many times, that we should be explaining things that users do in making errors. I tend to find that I must train my users to do things correctly. They will NEVER read the WIKI, rarely read any help and are forced to read my FAQs, but only once. Training and retraining is achieved by watching their habits and sending prompt emails to advise them when they error.
I advise my users in the welcoming email to NEVER - EVER delete an INDI. If they error in data entry, simply email the ADMINs and advise what the proper connection should/would be.
I would hardly encourage you to consider clarifying WIKI instructions and using the proper methods of data entry, rather than bringing up the confusing subject of correcting errors incorrectly.
Didn't mean to baffle anyone.
marekz - Yes I looked in the Wiki beforehand and found a very rudimentary description of editing families. Did you? I wouldn't suggest something that already existed and wouldn't want to waste time on it. Let me know if I missed something.
Stephen - thanks for the comments. I will probably disable QU on my site also but that's not really my point. Instructions for the use of PGV have to exist somewhere and this should be in them. I'm assuming the Wiki is part of that. I'm willing to write something useful.
Kiwi - 2) per my second post, done with QU. All via GUI.
I know how to do it right. I knew that before I posted. I never asked about that.
I'm not so much trying to say why this is the wrong way to do it (that would be a very narrow article) but explain why relationships and families are the way one has to do it. The answers to my questions are the information I'd need to write that, not the body text of what I'd say. I write a lot of tech articles and use a lot of background info in them.
So, I'm still trying to learn how the FAMs change with an edit such as I described. No one's explained it yet. For instance, you have two parents with three children. For one child, you use QU to change its father. Then you realize that had an unintended effect and remove him from the family and add him as a son elsewhere. Are the other two children now left with incorrect FAMC records? Why or why not? I can test this stuff but I was hoping someone would simply know.
OTOH if no one really give's a rat's ass about the Wiki or other documentation, I'll just forget the whole thing.
Nothing wrong with what you want to do, but I think it will be best if you test it. As you can see, none of the three of us who have responded use QU, so can't give you a simple answer.
Perhaps this would fit best in a part of the WIKI targeted specifically at QU?
Anton, I am new to this and am making all kinds of mistakes, and like you, made the same mistake. I put a person in the wrong place in a tree, and before I caught the mistake, I added some people to that person. When I realized my mistake, it seemed the more I did to correct the problem only made it worse, like the example you gave. I ended up deleting the whole wrong tree I had added as I couldn't figure out how to do it properly.
Seemed like there needed to be some sort of "prune" option, i.e. take this person and every descendant (including wife) and cut and paste them to another record.
PGV is very powerful with many options, and many ways of doing things, but sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.
To remove a person from a set of parents, you go to the family record, click "change family members", and then click remove on the appropriate child.
To add them to another set of parents, go to the indi page, and click "add to existing family".
> I ended up deleting the whole wrong
> tree I had added as I couldn't figure
> out how to do it properly.
I'm guessing that the correct method removes the child from the FAMC record and removes the FAMC record from the child's INDI record. If that's the gist of it, then the descendants should stay with the child as he moves. But no one has really given any details yet.
I'm also guessing that the wrong method (changing the parent in QU) either creates a new FAMC record for that child (and the 'new parents') only, or alters the existing FAMC record for everyone who happens to be in it.
Yes I could test this, But I probably won't; why mess with my data when someone already knows how it works?
<<I'm guessing that the correct method removes the child from the FAMC record and removes the FAMC record from the child's INDI record. If that's the gist of it, then the descendants should stay with the child as he moves. But no one has really given any details yet.>>
The instructions I gave above will remove one pair of FAMC/CHIL pointers, and add another pair.
QU has many deficiencies. AFAIK, none of the developers use it. It is quite a convoluted piece of code, and quite tricky to maintain as even simple changes to one part of it tend to have knock-on effects elsewhere. For this reason, I guess you'll have difficulty persuading someone to maintain/support it.
But, people like it in its current form, so we are just waiting patiently for it to die, so we'll have an excuse to remove it ;-)
If an INDI has a FAMS in its record, it's either the HUSB/WIFE of that record. Any FAMC's referring to the record (children of the INDI) will remain attached to that FAM record, both as 1 CHIL and the reverse FAMC.
Yes, CHANGE FAMILY is a 'pruning interface' as you suggest is needed.
Yes, SAVE AND VIEW is the same as SAVE and GO TO NEW RECORD. However, you need to start using the FAM record view instead of the INDI record view to speed up your additions.(although you can now accomplish the same thing by using the ADD a Brother/sister feature under Close Relatives).
I definitely think you developers have better stuff to do than work on QU. If it goes away, fine with me. I was wondering what the consequences were of that certain action, but if QU isn't anyone's area of expertise then forget it. I'll work up some proposed Wiki text and post it here for review.
Thanks for the input!
I haven't seen SAVE AND VIEW yet, not that I noticed, and when I do GO TO NEW RECORD, I don't see a way back to where I would add the next person, which is why I want to "continue, from entering one to the next to the next, without what seems like several screens. If I had it my way, I would have one screen…columns….for confirmation, at the top is the father/mother, marriage date and location…below you enter the given name, birth date, location, death date, location and sex for all their offsrping with a way to apply a source info which would apply to all.. There would be a spread sheet looking page where you enter all the offspring in one fell sweep. For most of my family tree additions, that is all the data I have.
Still never found QU or quick edit or whatever it is called.
For QU - try this pic to see if it helps you find it. If you don't see it there on your system, then you have not switched it on the the GEDCOM config screen.
: http://www.our-families.info/QU.jpg "Quick Update Pic"
… and this one will show you how to find The Family page, and once there, the best way to easily add children to a family.
: http://www.our-families.info/Add%20Children.jpg"Family Page"
…and on the subject of "SAVE AND VIEW " please read the answers you are given. Stephen clearly said, further up here:
Yes, SAVE AND VIEW is the same as SAVE and GO TO NEW RECORD.
Oh $%^^*(*^ this forum…
That link to the Family page got screwed up. Try this:
I don't think you are reading any of our posts or you have ignored KIWI's several words of advice, and you're trying to use PGV before you become acquainted with its numerous features. You should spend time, before entering anything, learning navigation techniques and tricks, locations of links, editing options for type of page view, etc. Developing a solid data entry approach to build your gedcom is NOT a contest, or something to be done without planning and most importantly, SOURCING. You'll hate yourself later for simply copying data willy-nilly and typing it into a program. Truly, that's not genealogy.
Virtually exactly what you want is readily available, you just have to navigate to the right form to begin with.
You need to be viewing the FAM records, NOT the INDI view. The URL at the top should read:
From ANY indi page (particularly the one from which you wish to branch), click the CLOSE RELATIVES (Family Members on my site) tab and then click on either the "Family with Parents - " link or the "Family with John/Jane Doe - Spouse " link. KIWI mentioned the NAVIGATOR PANE on the right side to accomplish the same thing without navigating to the CLOSE RELATIVE tab. From a FAMILY page, you can add the MARR/DIV/NCHI/RESI and each of their children, lickety-split. As I said, you can also do most of the additions from the close relatives tab by selecting either ADD A BROTHER/SISTER or ADD A CHILD, but you can NOT add FAMILY EVENTS (MARR, License, RESI, NCHI, etc) unless viewing the FAMILY RECORD page.
Lew, please give this a try. I think you have exhausted this conversation on the open discussion forum and if you need particular assistance should move specific questions, with one need at a time, to the HELP forum.
I looked at the Wiki and thought of two places where an edit would be helpful. Please let me know what you think.
**In "User's Guide" -> "Editing/Entering Data" -> "People"**
Also at the heart of genealogy are the family relationships between people. Whereas information about a specific person is contained in his individual record, relationships are handled by family records. FAM records describe one family: usually husband, wife, and children. An individual record typically contain a FAMC pointer to the FAM record where the person is a child, and a FAMS pointer to the family where that person is a husband or wife. With these two fundamental relationships, all other relationships are derived.
**In "Editing families"**
When a person is assigned to a family by any means (add as child, sibling, parent, or spouse) the result is the same: they get a FAMC or FAMS pointer in their INDI record, and the corresponding FAM record is updated to include them as CHIL, HUSB, etc. Consequently, if a person is mistakenly added to a family this must be corrected in a way that correctly alters the necessary family records. This is done from the family record, not by editing the person's individual record even though the change may have been made from an individual record.
Possible outcomes of such a mistake are that the person was assigned as a child of the wrong family (if added as a sibling or a child) or that they were assigned as a spouse of the wrong family (if added as spouse or parent). This example describes moving a person from one family (as a child of that family) to another. In other words, it removes the child from one set of parents and assigns it to another. If the error you are correcting is of a different nature, such as an incorrect spouse being linked to a family, you will have to adjust the procedure.
1) Make a note of the family ID to which this person should be assigned.
2) Go to the incorrect family record. You can reach this from the individual record several ways, including:
- Go to "Family with Parents" from the Close Relatives tab
- Go to "Parents Family" from the navigator
3) On the "Options for Family" menu, under "Edit Family" choose "Change family Members"
4) Using the "Remove" link, remove the person as a child of this family. Make a note if the individual ID of the person. At this point that individual does not have a FAMC pointer, meaning that he is not a child of any family. Assign him to a family as follows:
5a) Return to his Individual record, and from the "Close Relatives" tab, use "Link this person to an existing family as a child" to assign the correct parental family, or
5b) Go to the correct family and use "Add child to this family"
Note that this example is just for one specific case. Depending on what changes were made while a person is incorrectly linked to a family, you may have more clean-up to do.
Pretty good, but you may confuse people with the "family record' and "FAM record" as, unless contained in the text previously, you have not signified/defined them as identical. I would suggest using the term as "Family Record" (note the CAPS) and include in parens (FAM or FAM Record).
In the following:
"5b) Go to the correct family and use "Add child to this family"
this would create a NEW INDI, not attach an existing. The proper method would be to use your 5a or, from the Family Record > Options > Edit to use the CHANGE FAMILY MEMBERS as you did with the delete and select the correct INDI to add as the missing child or spouse.
Just a note. The location of these EDIT options is about to change with the next major release (see SVN example on pgvthemes.com) as the many functions currently included in the submenus will move to a menu option. EDIT in both INDI and FAM view will become a header icon to simplify the interface. When released, you'll have to return to the WIKI and modify the instructions for the new release.
I noticed you did not mention DELETE. I instruct all new users to not attempt to correct their own entry mistakes but rather to simply write to the site admin and explain to whom an INDI is related and how, so I can fix these. I specifically ask they NOT delete INDI's or FAM's as they are more likely to create bigger problems. It helps that I usually respond to emails within a few minutes as my occupation keeps me online nearly 24/7. Don't know if you wish to mention that almost ANY error is easily remedied via these change procedures rather than deleting and reentering.
Thanks for the comments. I made a few revisions that I think cover the bases here.
One question though: are there any complications if a person is reassigned as a spouse rather than as a child? I refer to this as being a similar procedure but if there are other factors to address I should probably mention them.
Here's the latest revision:
Also at the heart of genealogy are the family relationships between people. Whereas information about a specific person is contained in his individual record, relationships are handled by family (FAM) records. FAM records describe one family: usually husband, wife, and children. An individual record typically contains a FAMC pointer to the FAM record where the person is a child, and a FAMS pointer to the family where that person is a husband or wife. With these two fundamental relationships, all other relationships are derived.
When a person is added to a family by any means (add as child, sibling, parent, or spouse) the result is the same: they get a FAMC or FAMS pointer in their Individual Record (INDI), and the corresponding Family Record (FAM) is updated to include them as CHIL, HUSB, etc. Consequently, a mistake at this point will be that the person was assigned as a child of the wrong family (if added as a sibling or a child) or was assigned as a spouse of the wrong family (if added as spouse or parent).
A mistake here must be corrected in a way that correctly alters the necessary FAM records. Please note that deleting the individual is not the best way to do this. Although deleting the individual completely will clean up the necessary records, it is very rarely the best method and is simply unneccessary. Editing the family links works very well and preserves all of the existing information for that person. This is done from the Family Record view, not by editing the person's INDI record even though the change may have been made from an INDI record.
This example describes moving a person from one family (as a child of that family) to another. In other words, it removes the child from one set of parents and assigns it to another. The other siblings will stay attached to those original parents, and and children and spouse of the indivual being moved will stay attached to him. The only relationship affected is that of him to his parents.
If the error you are correcting is of a different nature, such as an incorrect spouse being linked to a family, you will have to adjust the procedure.
1) Make a note of the correct FAM ID, to which this person really belongs as a child.
2) View the incorrect FAM record. You can reach this from the Individual Record several ways, including:
- Go to "Family with Parents" from the Close Relatives tab
- Go to "Parents Family" from the navigator.
4) Using the "Remove" link, remove the person as a child of this family. Make a note of the INDI ID of the person. At this point that individual does not have a FAMC pointer, meaning that he is not a child of any family. Assign him to a family as follows:
5a) Return to his Individual Record (you can do this quickly by typing the INDI ID into the search window). From the "Close Relatives" tab, use "Link this person to an existing family as a child" to assign the correct parental family, or
5b) Go to the correct parental Family Record. On the "Options for Family" menu, under "Edit Family" choose "Change family Members" and add the child from that window.
Note that this example is just for one specific case. For an incorrectly linked spouse you would need to alter the "Family with…" record instead of the "Family with Parents" record. And depending on what changes were made while a person is incorrectly linked to a family, you may have more clean-up to do.
Anton, that looks good, PLUS its great to see more work being done on the WIKI.
Can I make one recommendation "a picture paints a thousand words". I couple of appropriate screenshots and a bit of "photoshop'ing" would help enormously. I'm particularly thinking of your para 2). Showing (with some bold arrows) where those options are would be great. Look at , the top section, to see what I mean.
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