Would it be asking too much that when you write an app, that you also write a set of docs that are usable?
I can only guess at how much time you waste out of our life dealing with these problems.
I read the README file in the down load. I read the install instructions by Mike that you so proudly applauded. They are more confusing than usable:
1) Both docs state chmod to 777 on everything in the forms directory. Yet neither mention anything about the USE directory. It is only when you go to the index.php file the first time that you get an error message as to files in that directory that don't have adequate permissions.
2) Your README instructions and Mike's INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS vary in what they say should be given WRITE permission, leaving only more confusion for the user.
3) Wouldn't you agree that leaving all these files and folders at 777 creates a HUGE security flaw in any website that uses your instructions; especially since no where do you mention password-ing them or changing them after the install?
This is why Linux has turned off so many who want to convert. Code writers don't document. So whatever savings the user gets by not paying the MS license fees is eaten up in time wasted trying to figure out how to use the applications?
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I think Richard is correct in his assessment; however, it is not just a lack of docuemtation that makes the software less valuable. Poorly written documentation, and documentation that is actually incorrect and never checked and revised also create a great deal of confusion which lessens the value of the software.
I am not sure a user would ever consider downloading the program if he or she knew how much time is needed to learn it. We should also consider whether an undocumented software is proven and if it is not proven, whether it is stable and safe.
I was once a technical writer; and while I should be offering to write some of the documentation, I can't because I have no knowledge of the proper download, installation, or utilization of the software. Instead, I flounder - create a form, complete it, and get error messages. I fix those, download the form onto my website, complete the form, press the submit button and get nothing. Who, in their right mind, would want a newbie like me writing such documentation?
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I do agree that the documentation is a little lacking but have to say that I have used this program for some time. Right from the beginning I have had very few troublew such as those listed in this forum. I have plenty of experience using this program and have found that most users have trouble due to limits placed by their web host.
I personally have chosen to provide support to this forum because of the benifits I have received from using the program.
I know it can be frustrating to try a program and have it fail, but you can not program for every possible host variation. If you have specific issues you would like help with, feel free to post your questions.
As far as documentationfor this version of the SW. It will probably never be what you expect it to be. Look for the next version to add features and hopefully do a better job at detecting and providing workarounds for host differences.
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I am not a programmer either and I too struggle with getting these programs to do what I want, but you know what? I count my blessings that there are programmers out there writing stuff so that I can make my living as a web designer without a formal education. I do spend a lot of time on forums and trying to figure things out but I guarantee you it's not near as much time or MONEY as I would waste taking PE classes at the local community college to get a degree in this stuff! Nor do I have to take a 12 week course to learn the first 3 chapters of php for dummies only to find out I still don't have enough knowledge to chmod into my web server! I am extremely greatful to all of you who take the time write free or virtually free programs so that I can do the things that I need to do without spending thousands of hours and evem more dollars "going to school". As for Unix v Windows - hello, windows supports php and mysql too - what was that about?
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Good Lord, are you trying to say, "ignorance is bliss" and an education is not worth your time and effort? I would like to suggest that you may have missed the point which is that the weakness of this type of open structure is the lack of documentation. With regard to programming and software, a lack of documentation only perpetuates ignorance. Since you are not a programmer but wish to consider yourself a professional designera with no formal training and no documentation on which you can rely, I simply have to wander how sound your sites really are.
M'ijk
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M'ijk, do I need to ban you from the forums? I thought you had stopped using the program ... why after a week are you still here and posting these insulting comments? You've already wasted my time arguing pointlessly, and now you are humiliating other users? How immature are you?
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Ali, write the documentation and you will be done with me. Also, you will have the gratitude of everyone who uses this software and the value of your software to users here will increase significantly. And if you will start it - provide the step by step instructions - I will be happy to help. If you are not willing to do that then you will need to have me banned from the forum because I will continue this until one of the two happens.
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I will not write documentation. End of conversation. I don't need gratitude, i don't need more users (users use the program if they want to.. not to do me a favor), and I certainly don't need your help. Don't bother posting any more, all your subsequent posts will be deleted without any consideration. Congratulations, you have publicly made an ass out of yourself.
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A side note, your garbage posts to all the threads in the forum are actually helping increase the "project activity", which in turn is increasing the rank of the project on SourceForge. So keep on posting, all I have to do is click one button to remove your post which I totally don't mind doing.
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I love phpFORMGenerator. I am using it on all of my web sites, about 15 total. I have multiple forms, all forms are using either email, flat file + email, mysql + email, and also going to multiple recipients. I have managed quite easily I might add to embed the forms into my website. I have had a couple of permission issues, these being due to the web host. I quickly solved those issues and moved on. I am anticipating the next release & will quickly install it on all of my sites. I really am tired of taking 5-10 minutes to listen to your rants about how bad the software is & that there is no documentation, if you don't like it grow up & delete it. There are several different programs out there, better yet why don't you take about 10 minutes & learn how to create your own forms in html.
Thanks for the great program & help. Musawir & tnteveret1. Keep up the good work.
I think I will also start trying to help on the forums more.
Chris
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I'm sure I'm doing this wrong so please forgive. I'm trying to respond to several e-mails I've received on my original post but can't reply for some reason.
Maartensdijk,
Actually this program has been fantastic for me. The help that I needed was with modifying some of the PHP. Please don’t use my thread for knocking this program. I’m EXTREMELY grateful that this person takes time out of his life to gift this program to the public. It is invaluable to me. I really don’t know what I’m doing but this program was written so well that I don’t need to know. For a basic form, I enter a little data and it’s done. EVERYTHING! How crazy-sweet is that?
Documentation would be nice but it doesn’t de-value the generosity of the PHPFG creator. If it really bugs you, why don’t you offer to write documentation for the program instead of attacking the author? All the energy you’re putting into creating tension on this forum could probably be better expended in writing really good documentation that would satisfy you and maybe help someone else out. I think you should try saying, "Thank You" instead of what you're doing.
Pura Vida,
Athena
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I suggest that there should be no further posts on this issue ... this is way too much effort to convince a person who obviously has no clue about how opensource and free software works. Plus he is posting threat messages like "if you don't write the documentation I'm going to continue to post messages on this forum until you do so!". That is after he said that he will never use the program again. What does that tell you about this person? To me he seems to be either partially retarded or just someone who has nothing else to do other than cause problems needlessly at arbitrary places that do not concern him. In either case, I believe he's not worth even an explanation. I tried that before, but he is stubborn and his only intention is to somehow belittle the program. I told him to stop using the program and go get something that he likes, but still he sticks around and keeps on blabbering. Lately, he started insulting other users who are happy with using the program. From that point on, I have started deleting all his posts without any consideration. Whatever he says now will get deleted immediately. This is a pretty pathetic situation for him, but I had to do it because these forums are for "HELP" ... not documentation requests, and certainly not pointless arguments. This will not be tolerated.
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Don't just use ur month instead of working on it.
I think most of ppl who contribute their software for free is nice enough.
For those who got lots of complain and yell at people for help unpolite, I think it's not hard to HIRE someone to do that for you.
Trust me, you can yell at your programer as much as you want as long as you pay them.
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Would it be asking too much that when you write an app, that you also write a set of docs that are usable?
I can only guess at how much time you waste out of our life dealing with these problems.
I read the README file in the down load. I read the install instructions by Mike that you so proudly applauded. They are more confusing than usable:
1) Both docs state chmod to 777 on everything in the forms directory. Yet neither mention anything about the USE directory. It is only when you go to the index.php file the first time that you get an error message as to files in that directory that don't have adequate permissions.
2) Your README instructions and Mike's INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS vary in what they say should be given WRITE permission, leaving only more confusion for the user.
3) Wouldn't you agree that leaving all these files and folders at 777 creates a HUGE security flaw in any website that uses your instructions; especially since no where do you mention password-ing them or changing them after the install?
This is why Linux has turned off so many who want to convert. Code writers don't document. So whatever savings the user gets by not paying the MS license fees is eaten up in time wasted trying to figure out how to use the applications?
I think Richard is correct in his assessment; however, it is not just a lack of docuemtation that makes the software less valuable. Poorly written documentation, and documentation that is actually incorrect and never checked and revised also create a great deal of confusion which lessens the value of the software.
I am not sure a user would ever consider downloading the program if he or she knew how much time is needed to learn it. We should also consider whether an undocumented software is proven and if it is not proven, whether it is stable and safe.
I was once a technical writer; and while I should be offering to write some of the documentation, I can't because I have no knowledge of the proper download, installation, or utilization of the software. Instead, I flounder - create a form, complete it, and get error messages. I fix those, download the form onto my website, complete the form, press the submit button and get nothing. Who, in their right mind, would want a newbie like me writing such documentation?
I do agree that the documentation is a little lacking but have to say that I have used this program for some time. Right from the beginning I have had very few troublew such as those listed in this forum. I have plenty of experience using this program and have found that most users have trouble due to limits placed by their web host.
I personally have chosen to provide support to this forum because of the benifits I have received from using the program.
I know it can be frustrating to try a program and have it fail, but you can not program for every possible host variation. If you have specific issues you would like help with, feel free to post your questions.
As far as documentationfor this version of the SW. It will probably never be what you expect it to be. Look for the next version to add features and hopefully do a better job at detecting and providing workarounds for host differences.
I am not a programmer either and I too struggle with getting these programs to do what I want, but you know what? I count my blessings that there are programmers out there writing stuff so that I can make my living as a web designer without a formal education. I do spend a lot of time on forums and trying to figure things out but I guarantee you it's not near as much time or MONEY as I would waste taking PE classes at the local community college to get a degree in this stuff! Nor do I have to take a 12 week course to learn the first 3 chapters of php for dummies only to find out I still don't have enough knowledge to chmod into my web server! I am extremely greatful to all of you who take the time write free or virtually free programs so that I can do the things that I need to do without spending thousands of hours and evem more dollars "going to school". As for Unix v Windows - hello, windows supports php and mysql too - what was that about?
Good Lord, are you trying to say, "ignorance is bliss" and an education is not worth your time and effort? I would like to suggest that you may have missed the point which is that the weakness of this type of open structure is the lack of documentation. With regard to programming and software, a lack of documentation only perpetuates ignorance. Since you are not a programmer but wish to consider yourself a professional designera with no formal training and no documentation on which you can rely, I simply have to wander how sound your sites really are.
M'ijk
M'ijk, do I need to ban you from the forums? I thought you had stopped using the program ... why after a week are you still here and posting these insulting comments? You've already wasted my time arguing pointlessly, and now you are humiliating other users? How immature are you?
Ali, write the documentation and you will be done with me. Also, you will have the gratitude of everyone who uses this software and the value of your software to users here will increase significantly. And if you will start it - provide the step by step instructions - I will be happy to help. If you are not willing to do that then you will need to have me banned from the forum because I will continue this until one of the two happens.
I will not write documentation. End of conversation. I don't need gratitude, i don't need more users (users use the program if they want to.. not to do me a favor), and I certainly don't need your help. Don't bother posting any more, all your subsequent posts will be deleted without any consideration. Congratulations, you have publicly made an ass out of yourself.
A side note, your garbage posts to all the threads in the forum are actually helping increase the "project activity", which in turn is increasing the rank of the project on SourceForge. So keep on posting, all I have to do is click one button to remove your post which I totally don't mind doing.
I love phpFORMGenerator. I am using it on all of my web sites, about 15 total. I have multiple forms, all forms are using either email, flat file + email, mysql + email, and also going to multiple recipients. I have managed quite easily I might add to embed the forms into my website. I have had a couple of permission issues, these being due to the web host. I quickly solved those issues and moved on. I am anticipating the next release & will quickly install it on all of my sites. I really am tired of taking 5-10 minutes to listen to your rants about how bad the software is & that there is no documentation, if you don't like it grow up & delete it. There are several different programs out there, better yet why don't you take about 10 minutes & learn how to create your own forms in html.
Thanks for the great program & help. Musawir & tnteveret1. Keep up the good work.
I think I will also start trying to help on the forums more.
Chris
I'm sure I'm doing this wrong so please forgive. I'm trying to respond to several e-mails I've received on my original post but can't reply for some reason.
Maartensdijk,
Actually this program has been fantastic for me. The help that I needed was with modifying some of the PHP. Please don’t use my thread for knocking this program. I’m EXTREMELY grateful that this person takes time out of his life to gift this program to the public. It is invaluable to me. I really don’t know what I’m doing but this program was written so well that I don’t need to know. For a basic form, I enter a little data and it’s done. EVERYTHING! How crazy-sweet is that?
Documentation would be nice but it doesn’t de-value the generosity of the PHPFG creator. If it really bugs you, why don’t you offer to write documentation for the program instead of attacking the author? All the energy you’re putting into creating tension on this forum could probably be better expended in writing really good documentation that would satisfy you and maybe help someone else out. I think you should try saying, "Thank You" instead of what you're doing.
Pura Vida,
Athena
I suggest that there should be no further posts on this issue ... this is way too much effort to convince a person who obviously has no clue about how opensource and free software works. Plus he is posting threat messages like "if you don't write the documentation I'm going to continue to post messages on this forum until you do so!". That is after he said that he will never use the program again. What does that tell you about this person? To me he seems to be either partially retarded or just someone who has nothing else to do other than cause problems needlessly at arbitrary places that do not concern him. In either case, I believe he's not worth even an explanation. I tried that before, but he is stubborn and his only intention is to somehow belittle the program. I told him to stop using the program and go get something that he likes, but still he sticks around and keeps on blabbering. Lately, he started insulting other users who are happy with using the program. From that point on, I have started deleting all his posts without any consideration. Whatever he says now will get deleted immediately. This is a pretty pathetic situation for him, but I had to do it because these forums are for "HELP" ... not documentation requests, and certainly not pointless arguments. This will not be tolerated.
Guys ...
If you don't like this program, it's fine.
Don't just use ur month instead of working on it.
I think most of ppl who contribute their software for free is nice enough.
For those who got lots of complain and yell at people for help unpolite, I think it's not hard to HIRE someone to do that for you.
Trust me, you can yell at your programer as much as you want as long as you pay them.