panicbutton-translators — If you wish to help translate Panic Button, please join this list

Re: [Panicbutton-translators] Pause in development

[Gerard J. <ger...@a2...>]

Hi Russ,

> Right, I'll look into that (and all the other issues you've raised)
> once I get my computer back into a usable state.

There's probably the one or other finetuning still to come - I'd suggest=20
  that as soon as you find the time you supply me/us with the beta=20
version of the sources, then I can do a thorough "proofreading" on them=20
too.

Issues like different word orders will probably also arise (apart from=20
just the vocabulary, the grammar obviously also changes as you switch=20
languages - so if you say "can't copy file xy" in English, you'd=20
normally make a sentence "Kann Datei xy nicht kopieren" in German out of=20
it), so there's still some stuff to do once you've finished unpacking ;-)

> Excellent :-)

Work is progressing here, I hope to have a working setup ready by=20
tonight. Since I currently do not have the script for the installer (so=20
far I only found the MSI stuff in the CVS - or am I looking in the wrong=20
place?), this initial version will have no installation script ready=20
just yet - that may change pretty quickly too though, as I get the hang=20
of Inno Setup...

> Let me know when it's available. If you have no objection, I'd like to
> link to it and/or add it to the files available from SF.net so that
> others can benefit.

You'll most certainly be one of the very first to hear about this :-)

I have created a special section for the work on Panic Button on my=20
website - obviously all in German though ;-)

http://www.a2b-consulting.com/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dcateg=
ory&sectionid=3D4&id=3D19&Itemid=3D27

(yes, and abreviation of that URL is in the making - most likely=20
something to the tune of http://www.a2b-consulting.com/panicbutton/ -=20
this is just a preliminary link to show where on that website it's going=20
to be located...)

> Everything a developer needs to know *should* be documented. There are
> two files that you should read if you are compiling your own copy:
>=20
> _Notes.txt [1] (named that way so that Windows puts it at the top of
> the list when sorted by name)

I found that when I compile Panic Button, it complains about a missing=20
module "_grabscreen" - yet the screen grabbing *DOES* work. I couldn't=20
find any mentioning of that module in the sources of Panic Button, so I=20
suspect a little "bug" in the PIL version I use (I tried my luck with=20
1.1.5)...

Error message as from the compiler when trying to copy the DLLs:

*** copy dlls ***
copying C:\Python24\lib\site-packages\py2exe\run_w.exe ->=20
C:\DOKUME~1\gjensen\EIGENE~1\DOWNLO~1\PANICB~1\src\Panic_Button_Source_Co=
de_2-3\dist\PanicButton.exe
The following modules appear to be missing
['_grabscreen']

As I said: Panic Button seems to work though...

> Russ

Kind regards

Gerard
--=20
 From a2b Consulting GmbH     Gerard Jensen
R=F6dingsmarkt 39              mailto:ger...@a2...
20459 Hamburg                http://www.a2b-consulting.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: 040-657934-60           Fax: 040-657934-62     Handy: 0160-8050313
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Panicbutton-translators] Suggestion: make the time formatting also a "translatable" string

[Gerard J. <ger...@a2...>]

Hi,

as the translation is progressing, I'm ironing out a couple of issues=20
myself that I found in Version 2.3 - with translation efforts in mind, I=20
would suggest to also add the formatting to the list of translatable=20
strings:

%d.%m%.%Y %H:%M:%S

gives me a "European" type of time formatting (DD.MM.YYYY HH:MM:SS),=20
which should be pretty "standard" for most languages, and whoever needs=20
a different date form could then use the Python formating as used by=20
strftime anyway.

Affected would be mSendMail.py and mSendMail.SSL.py (in which I also=20
stumble accross a couple of status messages that don't seem to have made=20
it into the .pot file yet - see line 60 and following in the 2.3=20
sourcefile).

Should be easier to implement than attempting to cater for any time/date=20
formating request that may come up...

Gerard

--=20
 From a2b Consulting GmbH     Gerard Jensen
R=F6dingsmarkt 39              mailto:ger...@a2...
20459 Hamburg                http://www.a2b-consulting.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: 040-657934-60           Fax: 040-657934-62     Handy: 0160-8050313
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Panicbutton-translators] Pause in development

[Russ P. <ru...@ph...>]

On 15/08/06, Gerard Jensen <ger...@a2...> wrote:

> While going through the sourcecode of the 2.3 version I found a couple
> of translation issues we might have to have a better look at: a couple
> of times you copy files "to" locations - the string "to" however does
> not appear in the .pot file. The same applies to the "seconds" for the
> delay of the screenshot - that word too needs to be translated, yet the
> string isn't yet in the .pot file.

Right, I'll look into that (and all the other issues you've raised)
once I get my computer back into a usable state.

> Since I do have the intention to ship out a "German" version real soon
> now though, I have so far handcoded the changes into the current 2.3
> release.

Excellent :-)

> That will also give me the chance to make screenshots of the translated
> version, update the helpfile accordingly - and supply my first customers
> with an "interims" version of a translated Panic Button.
>
> All that (including the source of course)will be made available at
> http://www.a2b-consulting.com/ "real soon now"... ;-)

Let me know when it's available. If you have no objection, I'd like to
link to it and/or add it to the files available from SF.net so that
others can benefit.

> What I noticed wasn't documented anywhere yet: if any other developer
> would like to compile the Python sources into an executable too, they'll
> require "py2exe" from http://www.py2exe.org/ to do so.
>
> Since this is an extension of Python, you should have Python installed
> before you try to install py2exe ;-)

Everything a developer needs to know *should* be documented. There are
two files that you should read if you are compiling your own copy:

_Notes.txt [1] (named that way so that Windows puts it at the top of
the list when sorted by name)
PanicButton.ncd [2]

_Notes.txt is intended to be a set of notes to make life easier for
anyone wanting to compile their own copy of Panic Button.
PanicButton.ncd is a set of notes that I use to remember things. It's
currently out of date (it says that the fr*.py files haven't had
strings marked for translation, but they have) but it has various
useful notes.

PanicButton.ncd is a Notecase [3] file, but Notecase stores files as a
HTML file, so if you don't have and don't want Notecase, you can view
the file in any browser. You might have to rename it to have a .html
extension first, though.

Russ


[1] http://panicbutton.cvs.sourceforge.net/panicbutton/panicbutton/_Notes.txt?view=log
[2] http://panicbutton.cvs.sourceforge.net/panicbutton/panicbutton/PanicButton.ncd?view=log
[3] http://notecase.sourceforge.net/

Re: [Panicbutton-translators] Pause in development

[Gerard J. <ger...@a2...>]

Hi Russ,

> We aplogise for the inconvenience. Normal service will be resumed as
> soon as possible.

No problem at all, I'll just wait until you've unpacked ;-)

While going through the sourcecode of the 2.3 version I found a couple=20
of translation issues we might have to have a better look at: a couple=20
of times you copy files "to" locations - the string "to" however does=20
not appear in the .pot file. The same applies to the "seconds" for the=20
delay of the screenshot - that word too needs to be translated, yet the=20
string isn't yet in the .pot file.

Since I do have the intention to ship out a "German" version real soon=20
now though, I have so far handcoded the changes into the current 2.3=20
release.

That will also give me the chance to make screenshots of the translated=20
version, update the helpfile accordingly - and supply my first customers=20
with an "interims" version of a translated Panic Button.

All that (including the source of course)will be made available at=20
http://www.a2b-consulting.com/ "real soon now"... ;-)

What I noticed wasn't documented anywhere yet: if any other developer=20
would like to compile the Python sources into an executable too, they'll=20
require "py2exe" from http://www.py2exe.org/ to do so.

Since this is an extension of Python, you should have Python installed=20
before you try to install py2exe ;-)

Kind regards

Gerard

--=20
 From a2b Consulting GmbH     Gerard Jensen
R=F6dingsmarkt 39              mailto:ger...@a2...
20459 Hamburg                http://www.a2b-consulting.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: 040-657934-60           Fax: 040-657934-62     Handy: 0160-8050313
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Panicbutton-translators] Pause in development

[Russ P. <ru...@ph...>]

I've just posted the following on the Panic Button blog, but I thought
it worth repeating here:

------

My wife and I have just moved house. Our computers are currently
packed away, the room where they are going to live is full of boxes,
and we need to buy and assemble a pair of desks to put them on. In
addition, of course, there are various things about the new house that
need organised, as well as all the usual unpacking. We also have a
busy few weeks ahead of us, which means we don't actually have a lot
of time to do these things.

All this means that Panic Button is currently experiencing a temporary
(and hopefully short) pause in development. I'm pleased that I managed
to get the .pot file done before this, so translators have something
to work on. However, I may not be able to answer too many questions
about localisation issues until I can have a proper look at the code,
and try some things out to see how they work.

We aplogise for the inconvenience. Normal service will be resumed as
soon as possible.

------

Russ

[Panicbutton-translators] German translation: request for comments

[Gerard J. <ger...@a2...>]

Hi,

as mentioned, the German translation is progressing. Apart from the .po=20
file for Panic Button itself, you can now also "testrun" the helpfile=20
for it. Currently still missing is a translated installer, but since=20
there's no beta of 2.4 yet, that's probably something we can live with.

A provisional index has been added (more keywords will be added in=20
future), as the sources to it have not been finalised yet, the zip file=20
containing them will be uploaded at a later stage - this is so to speak=20
the "sneak preview" meant for "proofreading":

http://www.a2b-consulting.com/panicbutton/downloads/german.po
http://www.a2b-consulting.com/panicbutton/downloads/PanicButton.chm

PLEASE NOTE:

if you copy PanicButton.chm into the installation directory of Panic=20
Button, it wil *OVERWRITE* the existing file there - so make sure you=20
have a backup of that file at hand.

The .po file obviously won't help you much without a beta of 2.4. It is=20
posted here to showcase a comment test - perhaps the .pot file may=20
include similar comments at a later stage too, that should make it=20
easier to identify the respective labels in the program. We may see=20
additional information being added here too, such as maximum length of=20
each field, font style and size in use for it, etc.

Gerard

--=20
 From a2b Consulting GmbH     Gerard Jensen
R=F6dingsmarkt 39              mailto:ger...@a2...
20459 Hamburg                http://www.a2b-consulting.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: 040-657934-60           Fax: 040-657934-62     Handy: 0160-8050313
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Panicbutton-translators] Just a thought...

[Gerard J. <ger...@a2...>]

...but can we "wire" Panic Button to this key?

http://www.computergear.com/panbutsetof4.html

;-)

Gerard

--=20
 From a2b Consulting GmbH     Gerard Jensen
R=F6dingsmarkt 39              mailto:ger...@a2...
20459 Hamburg                http://www.a2b-consulting.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: 040-657934-60           Fax: 040-657934-62     Handy: 0160-8050313
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Panicbutton-translators] Help files nearly translated to German - save for the GPL of Panic Button (yet)

[Gerard J. <ger...@a2...>]

Hi,

I'm pretty much done with the translation of the help files now (save=20
for the "translation" of the screenshots, which obviously require some=20
sort of beta of 2.4 first), and just reached the GNU General Public=20
License section.

Not to fear too much here - thankfully there have been efforts already=20
to translate that, the most commonly known of which is available=20
directly from the GNU project: http://www.gnu.de/gpl-ger.html. I will of=20
course make use of that - despite it being not an "official" translation.

What is a bit irritating at the moment is that the help file sources=20
know a "06.html" as well as a "07.html", but the index only refers to=20
"06.html". Essentially that renders "07.html" (which seems to be a copy=20
of 06.html) unused.

If possible, I'd like to use that to offer the German translation (which=20
as I said is an "unofficial" one, despite it coming from the German GNU=20
website, so I'd like to also keep the English original) as an=20
alternative to the English original for those to click on that do not=20
understand English. Anything that speaks against that plan?

Oh, and another thing that's interesting: the index.html refers to the=20
license as "Appendix 2" yet when you click on it, the license identifies=20
itself (stored in 06.html) as being "Appendix 3" - a little typo in the=20
original, I'd guess ;-)

Kind regards

Gerard

--=20
 From a2b Consulting GmbH     Gerard Jensen
R=F6dingsmarkt 39              mailto:ger...@a2...
20459 Hamburg                http://www.a2b-consulting.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: 040-657934-60           Fax: 040-657934-62     Handy: 0160-8050313
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Panicbutton-translators] Effort of translating Panic Button a three pronged one

[Russell P. <rph...@as...>]

<SNIP>
>That is obviously nicely coordinated through the gettext framework - as
>long as we work with a single .po file here, there's hardly any reason
>why filenames should "collide".
>
>As I suggested to Russ though, it may be a good idea to already think
>about a naming convention for the filenames of the .po files here -
>while the number of translations is still small and thus the effort to
>rename the files to match a certain naming convention is not too much.
>
>To be more constructive in my "criticism" here: I would suggest to name
>the .po files using the ISO 639/3166 codes for country and language
(one
>language may be spoken in different countries with slight variations -
>think of US-English as to Britisch English) - something like "en_GB.po"
>or "de_DE.po" for example.

I'm planning to use a naming scheme like this. However, I want to
study gettext some more before I decide on a final scheme. I have an
idea that gettext looks for translation files named in this way, in
which case this would be ideal. I want to be sure before I commit,
though - I don't want to have to change the scheme at some point in
the future.

>2) Translation of the helpfiles (needs more elbow-grease)
>
>Here things become a bit trickier - obviously the filenames will
collide
>with each other if we just translate the contents of files like
>"01.html" yet keep the filename and/or location.
>
>Question here: should it be a "feature" that any newly installed
>translation of a helpfile overwrites the current one, or should one
>instead be able to choose from a set of languages, perhaps even be
>allowed to change the languages in the configuration of Panic Button
"on
>the fly"?
>
>In that case I'd think we need a convention for the help file
>directories - a combination of language and country code immediately
>springs to mind (like "de_DE" and "de_CH" to distinguish between German
>German and Swiss German, or "en_GB" and "en_US" for English Englisch
and
>US English). Obviously the ISO 639/3166 codes would apply:
>http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_15.html
#SEC221
>and
>http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_16.html
#SEC222
>specify those.

The help file that is distributed is an MS HTML Help file (currently
named "PanicButton.chm"). I think it would be logical to use the same
naming scheme that we settle on for the l10n files (eg en_GB.chm). The
.html files (like 01.html) are the source files for the .chm file.
Putting them into directories named the same way as everything else
seems sensible.

>3) Translation of the Installer (currently needs some more extra
thought)
>
>The PanicButton.aip file can obviously be found in the CVS:
>
>http://panicbutton.cvs.sourceforge.net/panicbutton/panicbutton/MSI/Pani
cButton.aip?view=3Dlog

Actually, that is for the attempted (and now abandoned) MSI installer.
It's an XML file, so it could be edited using an XML editor or a text
editor, and MS released an open source MSI compiler
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/wix/). The current installer is
created using Inno Setup (http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php). As
far as I can tell, the licence is not OSI-approved, but it appears to
meet all the criteria for an OSI-approved open source licence.

>One would require the "Advanced Installer"
>(http://www.advancedinstaller.com/) for this part to be revised
>according to the language in use - and that's where my "problems" (well
>perhaps only: perceived problems) start: this tool only allows to
create
>an "English speaking Installer" (at least the Freeware version - the
>Professional and Enterprise versions come with 15 languages supported),
>plus it's requiring anyone participating in the translation process of
>Panic Button to actually purchase (as said, the Freeware version is
only
>available in English) a closed source software in order to take part in
>an open source project - which raises at least some of my neck-hairs.

I try to use open source as much as possible, and the only closed
source software I currently use for Panic Button is Microsoft's HTML
Help Workshop (http://tinyurl.com/gle) to compile the .chm file. I use
that because .chm is the standard Windows help format these days, and
I don't know of any open source software to create .chm files. If
anyone knows of an open source .chm compiler, I'll happily switch.

I'm not sure how Inno Setup handles translations, but I'm reasonably
sure that the setup can be localised, so it's just a matter of working
out how ;-)

<SNIP>
>Currently that exercise looks fairly simple: as far as I can see,
>currently the installation stuffs all the files into the usual Windows
>programs directory, and creates shortcuts in the Start-menu (a)
creating
>a folder for PanicButton and b) adding a shortcut to the
PanicButton.exe
>in the Autostart folder).
>
>If that's really all there is to it, any installer should do the trick
-
>what about new file locations for the internationalised version though?

I suspect that the l10n files will be in one or more sub-directories,
in which case any installer should be able to cope.

>What sounds obvious here probably results in a "staged translation"
>effort as a consequence:
>
>a) first translate the .po file (trivial, as I said - poEdit seems to
do
>a pretty good job in providing a comfortable environment for this)
>b) create screenshots of the new user interface, to be used in the
helpfile
>c) translate the helpfile
>d) create an installer - best choice here would obviously be one where
>(as a user) you select the installation language and then automatically
>end up with an installation of Panic Button in your chosen language.
>
>Obviously this repeats with each new release as the features of Panic
>Button become more - sounds like an ever increasing amount of work just
>to manage that, never mind working on Panic Button itself.
>
>Should we really coordinate that in a centralised spot (e.g. the Panic
>Button website that Russ provides) or should we decentralise that
effort
>and make the maintainer of each translation responsible for the
>provision of both the zip file and installer version of PanicButton,
>even if this means that not every new version may not immediately be
>available in every language of the previous version?

The extra work involved in co-ordinating translations is one reason
why I wanted to use gettext. Because we use gettext, we have the
option of using Rosetta (https://launchpad.net/rosetta) for managing
translations if we decide we want to. I don't want users of localised
versions to feel that they are "second-class" users, so ideally I'd
like all versions to be released simultaneously. I'd also prefer to
have one file for all users, with all translations included. If the
file sizes get too large, I might have to re-think that, though. I'd
suggest that we do it this way:

1. I announce a release date to the translators. The .pot file, help
files, and features will not change after this announcement.
2. Translators work on updating their translated versions of files. I
use the time for testing, bug fixes, etc.
3. Translators send their completed translations to me.
4. Once the translations are received and testing is over, the new
version is released.

Russ

[Panicbutton-translators] Fwd: Effort of translating Panic Button a three pronged one

[Russ P. <ru...@ph...>]

<SNIP>
>That is obviously nicely coordinated through the gettext framework - as
>long as we work with a single .po file here, there's hardly any reason
>why filenames should "collide".
>
>As I suggested to Russ though, it may be a good idea to already think
>about a naming convention for the filenames of the .po files here -
>while the number of translations is still small and thus the effort to
>rename the files to match a certain naming convention is not too much.
>
>To be more constructive in my "criticism" here: I would suggest to name
>the .po files using the ISO 639/3166 codes for country and language (one
>language may be spoken in different countries with slight variations -
>think of US-English as to Britisch English) - something like "en_GB.po"
>or "de_DE.po" for example.

I'm planning to use a naming scheme like this. However, I want to
study gettext some more before I decide on a final scheme. I have an
idea that gettext looks for translation files named in this way, in
which case this would be ideal. I want to be sure before I commit,
though - I don't want to have to change the scheme at some point in
the future.

>2) Translation of the helpfiles (needs more elbow-grease)
>
>Here things become a bit trickier - obviously the filenames will collide
>with each other if we just translate the contents of files like
>"01.html" yet keep the filename and/or location.
>
>Question here: should it be a "feature" that any newly installed
>translation of a helpfile overwrites the current one, or should one
>instead be able to choose from a set of languages, perhaps even be
>allowed to change the languages in the configuration of Panic Button "on
>the fly"?
>
>In that case I'd think we need a convention for the help file
>directories - a combination of language and country code immediately
>springs to mind (like "de_DE" and "de_CH" to distinguish between German
>German and Swiss German, or "en_GB" and "en_US" for English Englisch and
>US English). Obviously the ISO 639/3166 codes would apply:
>http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_15.html#SEC221
>and
>http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_16.html#SEC222
>specify those.

The help file that is distributed is an MS HTML Help file (currently
named "PanicButton.chm"). I think it would be logical to use the same
naming scheme that we settle on for the l10n files (eg en_GB.chm). The
.html files (like 01.html) are the source files for the .chm file.
Putting them into directories named the same way as everything else
seems sensible.

>3) Translation of the Installer (currently needs some more extra thought)
>
>The PanicButton.aip file can obviously be found in the CVS:
>
>http://panicbutton.cvs.sourceforge.net/panicbutton/panicbutton/MSI/PanicButton.aip?view=log

Actually, that is for the attempted (and now abandoned) MSI installer.
It's an XML file, so it could be edited using an XML editor or a text
editor, and MS released an open source MSI compiler
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/wix/). The current installer is
created using Inno Setup (http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php). As
far as I can tell, the licence is not OSI-approved, but it appears to
meet all the criteria for an OSI-approved open source licence.

>One would require the "Advanced Installer"
>(http://www.advancedinstaller.com/) for this part to be revised
>according to the language in use - and that's where my "problems" (well
>perhaps only: perceived problems) start: this tool only allows to create
>an "English speaking Installer" (at least the Freeware version - the
>Professional and Enterprise versions come with 15 languages supported),
>plus it's requiring anyone participating in the translation process of
>Panic Button to actually purchase (as said, the Freeware version is only
>available in English) a closed source software in order to take part in
>an open source project - which raises at least some of my neck-hairs.

I try to use open source as much as possible, and the only closed
source software I currently use for Panic Button is Microsoft's HTML
Help Workshop (http://tinyurl.com/gle) to compile the .chm file. I use
that because .chm is the standard Windows help format these days, and
I don't know of any open source software to create .chm files. If
anyone knows of an open source .chm compiler, I'll happily switch.

I'm not sure how Inno Setup handles translations, but I'm reasonably
sure that the setup can be localised, so it's just a matter of working
out how ;-)

<SNIP>
>Currently that exercise looks fairly simple: as far as I can see,
>currently the installation stuffs all the files into the usual Windows
>programs directory, and creates shortcuts in the Start-menu (a) creating
>a folder for PanicButton and b) adding a shortcut to the PanicButton.exe
>in the Autostart folder).
>
>If that's really all there is to it, any installer should do the trick -
>what about new file locations for the internationalised version though?

I suspect that the l10n files will be in one or more sub-directories,
in which case any installer should be able to cope.

>What sounds obvious here probably results in a "staged translation"
>effort as a consequence:
>
>a) first translate the .po file (trivial, as I said - poEdit seems to do
>a pretty good job in providing a comfortable environment for this)
>b) create screenshots of the new user interface, to be used in the helpfile
>c) translate the helpfile
>d) create an installer - best choice here would obviously be one where
>(as a user) you select the installation language and then automatically
>end up with an installation of Panic Button in your chosen language.
>
>Obviously this repeats with each new release as the features of Panic
>Button become more - sounds like an ever increasing amount of work just
>to manage that, never mind working on Panic Button itself.
>
>Should we really coordinate that in a centralised spot (e.g. the Panic
>Button website that Russ provides) or should we decentralise that effort
>and make the maintainer of each translation responsible for the
>provision of both the zip file and installer version of PanicButton,
>even if this means that not every new version may not immediately be
>available in every language of the previous version?

The extra work involved in co-ordinating translations is one reason
why I wanted to use gettext. Because we use gettext, we have the
option of using Rosetta (https://launchpad.net/rosetta) for managing
translations if we decide we want to. I don't want users of localised
versions to feel that they are "second-class" users, so ideally I'd
like all versions to be released simultaneously. I'd also prefer to
have one file for all users, with all translations included. If the
file sizes get too large, I might have to re-think that, though. I'd
suggest that we do it this way:

1. I announce a release date to the translators. The .pot file, help
files, and features will not change after this announcement.
2. Translators work on updating their translated versions of files. I
use the time for testing, bug fixes, etc.
3. Translators send their completed translations to me.
4. Once the translations are received and testing is over, the new
version is released.

Russ

Re: [Panicbutton-translators] Effort of translating Panic Button a three pronged one

[Russ P. <ru...@ph...>]

<SNIP>
>That is obviously nicely coordinated through the gettext framework - as
>long as we work with a single .po file here, there's hardly any reason
>why filenames should "collide".
>
>As I suggested to Russ though, it may be a good idea to already think
>about a naming convention for the filenames of the .po files here -
>while the number of translations is still small and thus the effort to
>rename the files to match a certain naming convention is not too much.
>
>To be more constructive in my "criticism" here: I would suggest to name
>the .po files using the ISO 639/3166 codes for country and language (one
>language may be spoken in different countries with slight variations -
>think of US-English as to Britisch English) - something like "en_GB.po"
>or "de_DE.po" for example.

I'm planning to use a naming scheme like this. However, I want to
study gettext some more before I decide on a final scheme. I have an
idea that gettext looks for translation files named in this way, in
which case this would be ideal. I want to be sure before I commit,
though - I don't want to have to change the scheme at some point in
the future.

>2) Translation of the helpfiles (needs more elbow-grease)
>
>Here things become a bit trickier - obviously the filenames will collide
>with each other if we just translate the contents of files like
>"01.html" yet keep the filename and/or location.
>
>Question here: should it be a "feature" that any newly installed
>translation of a helpfile overwrites the current one, or should one
>instead be able to choose from a set of languages, perhaps even be
>allowed to change the languages in the configuration of Panic Button "on
>the fly"?
>
>In that case I'd think we need a convention for the help file
>directories - a combination of language and country code immediately
>springs to mind (like "de_DE" and "de_CH" to distinguish between German
>German and Swiss German, or "en_GB" and "en_US" for English Englisch and
>US English). Obviously the ISO 639/3166 codes would apply:
>http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_15.html#SEC221
>and
>http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_16.html#SEC222
>specify those.

The help file that is distributed is an MS HTML Help file (currently
named "PanicButton.chm"). I think it would be logical to use the same
naming scheme that we settle on for the l10n files (eg en_GB.chm). The
.html files (like 01.html) are the source files for the .chm file.
Putting them into directories named the same way as everything else
seems sensible.

>3) Translation of the Installer (currently needs some more extra thought)
>
>The PanicButton.aip file can obviously be found in the CVS:
>
>http://panicbutton.cvs.sourceforge.net/panicbutton/panicbutton/MSI/PanicButton.aip?view=log

Actually, that is for the attempted (and now abandoned) MSI installer.
It's an XML file, so it could be edited using an XML editor or a text
editor, and MS released an open source MSI compiler
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/wix/). The current installer is
created using Inno Setup (http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php). As
far as I can tell, the licence is not OSI-approved, but it appears to
meet all the criteria for an OSI-approved open source licence.

>One would require the "Advanced Installer"
>(http://www.advancedinstaller.com/) for this part to be revised
>according to the language in use - and that's where my "problems" (well
>perhaps only: perceived problems) start: this tool only allows to create
>an "English speaking Installer" (at least the Freeware version - the
>Professional and Enterprise versions come with 15 languages supported),
>plus it's requiring anyone participating in the translation process of
>Panic Button to actually purchase (as said, the Freeware version is only
>available in English) a closed source software in order to take part in
>an open source project - which raises at least some of my neck-hairs.

I try to use open source as much as possible, and the only closed
source software I currently use for Panic Button is Microsoft's HTML
Help Workshop (http://tinyurl.com/gle) to compile the .chm file. I use
that because .chm is the standard Windows help format these days, and
I don't know of any open source software to create .chm files. If
anyone knows of an open source .chm compiler, I'll happily switch.

I'm not sure how Inno Setup handles translations, but I'm reasonably
sure that the setup can be localised, so it's just a matter of working
out how ;-)

<SNIP>
>Currently that exercise looks fairly simple: as far as I can see,
>currently the installation stuffs all the files into the usual Windows
>programs directory, and creates shortcuts in the Start-menu (a) creating
>a folder for PanicButton and b) adding a shortcut to the PanicButton.exe
>in the Autostart folder).
>
>If that's really all there is to it, any installer should do the trick -
>what about new file locations for the internationalised version though?

I suspect that the l10n files will be in one or more sub-directories,
in which case any installer should be able to cope.

>What sounds obvious here probably results in a "staged translation"
>effort as a consequence:
>
>a) first translate the .po file (trivial, as I said - poEdit seems to do
>a pretty good job in providing a comfortable environment for this)
>b) create screenshots of the new user interface, to be used in the helpfile
>c) translate the helpfile
>d) create an installer - best choice here would obviously be one where
>(as a user) you select the installation language and then automatically
>end up with an installation of Panic Button in your chosen language.
>
>Obviously this repeats with each new release as the features of Panic
>Button become more - sounds like an ever increasing amount of work just
>to manage that, never mind working on Panic Button itself.
>
>Should we really coordinate that in a centralised spot (e.g. the Panic
>Button website that Russ provides) or should we decentralise that effort
>and make the maintainer of each translation responsible for the
>provision of both the zip file and installer version of PanicButton,
>even if this means that not every new version may not immediately be
>available in every language of the previous version?

The extra work involved in co-ordinating translations is one reason
why I wanted to use gettext. Because we use gettext, we have the
option of using Rosetta (https://launchpad.net/rosetta) for managing
translations if we decide we want to. I don't want users of localised
versions to feel that they are "second-class" users, so ideally I'd
like all versions to be released simultaneously. I'd also prefer to
have one file for all users, with all translations included. If the
file sizes get too large, I might have to re-think that, though. I'd
suggest that we do it this way:

1. I announce a release date to the translators. The .pot file, help
files, and features will not change after this announcement.
2. Translators work on updating their translated versions of files. I
use the time for testing, bug fixes, etc.
3. Translators send their completed translations to me.
4. Once the translations are received and testing is over, the new
version is released.

Russ

[Panicbutton-translators] Effort of translating Panic Button a three pronged one

[Gerard J. <ger...@a2...>]

Hi,

since we've got the list now, I'll certainly make use of it too. I am=20
currently busy translating Panic Button into German and noticed that the=20
effort is obviously a three pronged one, that might need some additional=20
coordination.

Here are some of my thoughts, obviously for anyone to discuss (why would=20
I post them here otherwise ;-)):


1) Translation of the .po file (the trivial part actually)

That is obviously nicely coordinated through the gettext framework - as=20
long as we work with a single .po file here, there's hardly any reason=20
why filenames should "collide".

As I suggested to Russ though, it may be a good idea to already think=20
about a naming convention for the filenames of the .po files here -=20
while the number of translations is still small and thus the effort to=20
rename the files to match a certain naming convention is not too much.

To be more constructive in my "criticism" here: I would suggest to name=20
the .po files using the ISO 639/3166 codes for country and language (one=20
language may be spoken in different countries with slight variations -=20
think of US-English as to Britisch English) - something like "en_GB.po"=20
or "de_DE.po" for example.


2) Translation of the helpfiles (needs more elbow-grease)

Here things become a bit trickier - obviously the filenames will collide=20
with each other if we just translate the contents of files like=20
"01.html" yet keep the filename and/or location.

Question here: should it be a "feature" that any newly installed=20
translation of a helpfile overwrites the current one, or should one=20
instead be able to choose from a set of languages, perhaps even be=20
allowed to change the languages in the configuration of Panic Button "on=20
the fly"?

In that case I'd think we need a convention for the help file=20
directories - a combination of language and country code immediately=20
springs to mind (like "de_DE" and "de_CH" to distinguish between German=20
German and Swiss German, or "en_GB" and "en_US" for English Englisch and=20
US English). Obviously the ISO 639/3166 codes would apply:=20
http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_15.html#S=
EC221=20
and=20
http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_chapter/gettext_16.html#S=
EC222=20
specify those.


3) Translation of the Installer (currently needs some more extra thought)

The PanicButton.aip file can obviously be found in the CVS:

http://panicbutton.cvs.sourceforge.net/panicbutton/panicbutton/MSI/PanicB=
utton.aip?view=3Dlog

One would require the "Advanced Installer"=20
(http://www.advancedinstaller.com/) for this part to be revised=20
according to the language in use - and that's where my "problems" (well=20
perhaps only: perceived problems) start: this tool only allows to create=20
an "English speaking Installer" (at least the Freeware version - the=20
Professional and Enterprise versions come with 15 languages supported),=20
plus it's requiring anyone participating in the translation process of=20
Panic Button to actually purchase (as said, the Freeware version is only=20
available in English) a closed source software in order to take part in=20
an open source project - which raises at least some of my neck-hairs.

I would suggest to think about using an open source installer here -=20
things like InstallJammer (http://www.installjammer.com/) or NSIS=20
(Nullsoft scriptable install system - see=20
http://nsis.sourceforge.net/Main_Page) seem to fit the bill a bit better.

NSIS supports at least 40 interface languages (plus you can create your=20
own, so if you need a Klingon speaking one, that shouldn't be much of a=20
problem either ;-)), InstallJammer currently only boasts Spanish and=20
French as alterantives to English, yet supports multiple platforms too=20
(not yet relevant - but why should Panic Button be locked into Windows=20
only in future too?)

Since the possible migration to an alternative installer may quickly=20
develop into a "project within a project", perhaps a "roadmap" of where=20
to put which file should be charted, so that whoever wants to start work=20
on an alternative installer.

Currently that exercise looks fairly simple: as far as I can see,=20
currently the installation stuffs all the files into the usual Windows=20
programs directory, and creates shortcuts in the Start-menu (a) creating=20
a folder for PanicButton and b) adding a shortcut to the PanicButton.exe=20
in the Autostart folder).

If that's really all there is to it, any installer should do the trick -=20
what about new file locations for the internationalised version though?

What sounds obvious here probably results in a "staged translation"=20
effort as a consequence:

a) first translate the .po file (trivial, as I said - poEdit seems to do=20
a pretty good job in providing a comfortable environment for this)
b) create screenshots of the new user interface, to be used in the helpfi=
le
c) translate the helpfile
d) create an installer - best choice here would obviously be one where=20
(as a user) you select the installation language and then automatically=20
end up with an installation of Panic Button in your chosen language.

Obviously this repeats with each new release as the features of Panic=20
Button become more - sounds like an ever increasing amount of work just=20
to manage that, never mind working on Panic Button itself.

Should we really coordinate that in a centralised spot (e.g. the Panic=20
Button website that Russ provides) or should we decentralise that effort=20
and make the maintainer of each translation responsible for the=20
provision of both the zip file and installer version of PanicButton,=20
even if this means that not every new version may not immediately be=20
available in every language of the previous version?

As I said - just some thoughts...

Kind regards

Gerard

--=20
 From a2b Consulting GmbH     Gerard Jensen
R=F6dingsmarkt 39              mailto:ger...@a2...
20459 Hamburg                http://www.a2b-consulting.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tel: 040-657934-60           Fax: 040-657934-62     Handy: 0160-8050313
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Panicbutton-translators] Testing translations

[Russ P. <ru...@ph...>]

I've been asked whether translations can be tested on the current
version of Panic Button (2.3). Since one reason for setting up this
list was to avoid having to answer the same question multiple times, I
thought I'd answer here.

Unfortunately, they can't. However, since it is obviously useful for
translators to be able to see how their translations look in the
actual application, I will make a beta available as soon as I can,
which will allow translations to be tested. I don't know exactly how
it will work yet, and as I'm in the middle of a house move, my
computer is currently packed away, which means I can't do much work on
Panic Button right now.

As soon as I have a version of Panic Button available that can be used
to test translations, I shall post a notice to this list.

Russ