opensync-users

[Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Dotan C. <dot...@gm...>]

I need to sync my KDE-PIM calendar with either my Nokia E71 or my
Nokia 6288. Opensync 0.22 is already installed on my Kubuntu 8.04 (KDE
3.5.10) machine. I go to opensync.org and try these links:
Help / Guide
Wiki
Documentation for 0 - 0.2x

"Help/Guide" is the Trac help system- no good for me. "Wiki" takes me
back to the homepage. "Documentation for 0 - 0.2x" has these relevant
links:
DeviceCompatibilityList
Examples
FAQ

"DeviceCompatibilityList" makes me confidant that the E71 is
supported. All the links on the"Examples" return 404 errors. "FAQ" has
a question 'How do I get started?' but the answer is literally to
install then 'start tinkering'.

So I then turned to Google and searched on the keywords "kde,
opensync, nokia". I did not get very far. Where to go from here? This
is not a troll but a real question: Is opensync meant to be used by
regular joes like me (mechanical engineers, not computer programmers)?
If so, where is the documentation?

I thank you in advance and apologize for the provocative nature of
this post, but there is no better way to word it.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

Re: [Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Juha T. <Juh...@ik...>]

On Wednesday 19 November 2008 17:34:48 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> I need to sync my KDE-PIM calendar with either my Nokia E71 or my
> Nokia 6288. 

I've E71 too here. And i use KDE.

> Opensync 0.22 is already installed on my Kubuntu 8.04 (KDE 
> 3.5.10) machine. 

Good news: 0.2x versions have kdepim plugin
Bad news: 0.2x does not really work, that's why the big changes started for 0.40.

> I go to opensync.org and try these links: 
> Help / Guide
> Wiki
> Documentation for 0 - 0.2x
> 
> "Help/Guide" is the Trac help system- no good for me. "Wiki" takes me
> back to the homepage. 

Yep, one of the few reasons I'm against this whole web wikialization. 
If you were a bricklayer and left from finished work, your tools would
be partly visible between the bricks you laid. Or if you were an electrician,
your meters would be part of the house electric circuits. Or for book writer,
you would find the instructions from book margins how to change the 
color cartridge for the typewriter. Wiki tries to solve a content problem by
changing the tools and way to access the content. You just have been confused
by the above.

> "Documentation for 0 - 0.2x" has these relevant 
> links:
> DeviceCompatibilityList
> Examples
> FAQ
> 
> "DeviceCompatibilityList" makes me confidant that the E71 is
> supported. All the links on the"Examples" return 404 errors. "FAQ" has
> a question 'How do I get started?' but the answer is literally to
> install then 'start tinkering'.

What we have, is a problem in docs that that was not versioned at all,
which started to be a problem when we had 0.3x development versions that
were not compatible with the docs anymore. Some people started to mix docs
but imo it's better to have releases that will also appear in documentation
space. So, I splitted the docs last weekend to

 http://www.opensync.org/wiki/docs

and unfortunately you cought me in middle of indexing them. Another problem 
is that i found out that we have other kind of stuff that needs versioning too
but is not part of docs, so the whole hierarchy is screwed and I need to re-do it.

Part of my last week meeting's action points were to make some 
kind of guidelines for wiki and it's due tomorrow so this will 
get better today evening.

> So I then turned to Google and searched on the keywords "kde,
> opensync, nokia". I did not get very far. Where to go from here? This
> is not a troll but a real question: Is opensync meant to be used by
> regular joes like me (mechanical engineers, not computer programmers)?

Yes it is. Part of the goals for 0.40 release were to make it way much
easier in many ways and it has already achived quite a few of them. One
is to make configuration easier. We're already working with the installation
docs. Once we get the 0.40 release out, all distros will pick it and you don't
have to worry about the installation, which is somewhat laborious at the
moment.

> If so, where is the documentation?

  http://www.opensync.org/wiki/TitleIndex

is all wiki pages there are. that's autogenerated and like typical wiki, we
have not had anyone really looking the big picture but everyone have scratched
something where finds a suitable place and thus there is a lot of repeating,
empty pages and outdated information as code has moved faster than docs.

Short answer to your questions is: 

current opensync might work as 0.2x what you probably find from your distro.
if it doesn't, you need some hacking skills to install the current svn version
which works better, but still has some annoying bugs. You might want to wait
few weeks it to get better. See the roadmap for open tickets.

> I thank you in advance and apologize for the provocative nature of
> this post, but there is no better way to word it.
 
Well, you're not the first one. This is one of the most annoying missing
feature on opensource desktop. I was one of you, swearing it after wasting
countless hours trying to make it work. 

I cannot code good c-code. But still, I came to irc channel, tried to help 
everywhere I can and belive me, there is more things to do than I've time. 
We welcome you to join to help us (which you already did by giving feedback 
about web/docs).


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattupäisiä autoilijoita.

Re: [Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Dotan C. <dot...@gm...>]

2008/11/19 Juha Tuomala <Juh...@ik...>:
> On Wednesday 19 November 2008 17:34:48 Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> I need to sync my KDE-PIM calendar with either my Nokia E71 or my
>> Nokia 6288.
>
> I've E71 too here. And i use KDE.
>

Excellent, this is encouraging.

>> Opensync 0.22 is already installed on my Kubuntu 8.04 (KDE
>> 3.5.10) machine.
>
> Good news: 0.2x versions have kdepim plugin
> Bad news: 0.2x does not really work, that's why the big changes started for 0.40.
>

Which will not be ready for some time, I understand.

> Part of my last week meeting's action points were to make some
> kind of guidelines for wiki and it's due tomorrow so this will
> get better today evening.
>

Excellent, I will refer back to the docs next week when I have some
more time. Thanks.

>> So I then turned to Google and searched on the keywords "kde,
>> opensync, nokia". I did not get very far. Where to go from here? This
>> is not a troll but a real question: Is opensync meant to be used by
>> regular joes like me (mechanical engineers, not computer programmers)?
>
> Yes it is. Part of the goals for 0.40 release were to make it way much
> easier in many ways and it has already achived quite a few of them. One
> is to make configuration easier. We're already working with the installation
> docs. Once we get the 0.40 release out, all distros will pick it and you don't
> have to worry about the installation, which is somewhat laborious at the
> moment.
>

This is very encouraging. So long as the project is moving in that
direction. I am patient, and can scrape by today.

>> If so, where is the documentation?
>
>  http://www.opensync.org/wiki/TitleIndex
>

Regarding KDE, I see a message that Novel sponsored an opensync-kde
meeting in 2005. Other than that, there is a problem/solution page
that is so far over my head that I will not even begin to google the
terms on the page at this stage.

> is all wiki pages there are. that's autogenerated and like typical wiki, we
> have not had anyone really looking the big picture but everyone have scratched
> something where finds a suitable place and thus there is a lot of repeating,
> empty pages and outdated information as code has moved faster than docs.
>
> Short answer to your questions is:
>
> current opensync might work as 0.2x what you probably find from your distro.

How do I test that? I have here a phone, a usb cable, a bluetooth
connection, and a laptop computer. What should I do first? Second?

> if it doesn't, you need some hacking skills to install the current svn version
> which works better, but still has some annoying bugs. You might want to wait
> few weeks it to get better. See the roadmap for open tickets.
>

I am willing to test SVN. I can backup both the phone and the laptop.
How to build?

>> I thank you in advance and apologize for the provocative nature of
>> this post, but there is no better way to word it.
>
> Well, you're not the first one. This is one of the most annoying missing
> feature on opensource desktop. I was one of you, swearing it after wasting
> countless hours trying to make it work.
>

I do contribute docs to some small opensource programs that I use (Zim
wiki, for example). However you do not want _me_ to write the docs for
opensync! If I do manage to get my E71 and KDE-PIM syncing, however, I
promise to document and publish the method.

> I cannot code good c-code. But still, I came to irc channel, tried to help
> everywhere I can and belive me, there is more things to do than I've time.
> We welcome you to join to help us (which you already did by giving feedback
> about web/docs).
>

Nor can I code in C. I will join the IRC channel when I have some
time. Is there a preferable weekday / hour when knowledgable people
are on IRC?

Thanks!

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

Re: [Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Juha T. <Juh...@ik...>]

On Wednesday 19 November 2008 18:25:53 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > I've E71 too here. And i use KDE.
> Excellent, this is encouraging.

actually i think the e71 is our libsyncml s60 dedicated 
test device, so yes in that area we're in good shape.

> Other than that, there is a problem/solution page 
> that is so far over my head that I will not even begin to google the
> terms on the page at this stage.

yep, i remember seeing that too once. But cannot remember where.


> > current opensync might work as 0.2x what you probably find from your distro.
> 
> How do I test that? I have here a phone, a usb cable, a bluetooth
> connection, and a laptop computer. What should I do first? Second?

Well, usb is quite easy to get working as you don't need to pair it.
bt is probably more used/tested. There should be instructions below
that docs/0.2x tree, find them from titleIndex. Yep, there are quite
a lot pages, i know :-/


> I am willing to test SVN. I can backup both the phone 

Yes, e71/s60 has its own backuptoo inside.

> and the laptop. 

you could start from file-sync plugin, that needs just empty dir.

> How to build? 

that should be up to date in wiki. You just need to repeat every 
step for each plugin. 

  http://opensync.org/wiki/docs/trunk


note that it will install to /usr/local which is not under package control
and you need to remove it manually in case you want to get rid of it.

> I do contribute docs to some small opensource programs that I use (Zim
> wiki, for example). However you do not want _me_ to write the docs for
> opensync! If I do manage to get my E71 and KDE-PIM syncing, however, I
> promise to document and publish the method.

Read existing trunk docs, comment them and we make them better. that's
already a huge help.


> Nor can I code in C. I will join the IRC channel when I have some
> time. Is there a preferable weekday / hour when knowledgable people
> are on IRC?

Most of the people hang out there 24/7, we'll be waiting you.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattupäisiä autoilijoita.

Re: [Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Chris C. <ran...@gm...>]

Just wanted to chime in and say to Dotan that you're not alone - I too have
just arrived that the conclusion that I'm fed up with Nokia's windows
bloat-suite and I want to get opensync working for me, and I too am not a
programmer. 

> On Wednesday 19 November 2008 18:25:53 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > > I've E71 too here. And i use KDE.
> > Excellent, this is encouraging.
> 
> actually i think the e71 is our libsyncml s60 dedicated 
> test device, so yes in that area we're in good shape.

I have an E90, which runs S60 3rd Edition, which I think is the same
platform as the E71.
 
> > > current opensync might work as 0.2x what you probably 
> > > find from your distro.
 
I run Debian Lenny, which has 0.22

I'm willing to install and test 0.22, but is there much point, since so much
development has taken place in 0.3x?

> > How do I test that? I have here a phone, a usb cable, a bluetooth
> > connection, and a laptop computer. What should I do first? Second?
> 
> Well, usb is quite easy to get working as you don't need to pair it.
> bt is probably more used/tested. There should be instructions below
> that docs/0.2x tree, find them from titleIndex. Yep, there are quite
> a lot pages, i know :-/
> 
> > I am willing to test SVN. I can backup both the phone 
> 
> Yes, e71/s60 has its own backuptoo inside.
> 
> > and the laptop. 
> 
> you could start from file-sync plugin, that needs just empty dir.
> 
> > How to build? 
> 
> that should be up to date in wiki. You just need to repeat every 
> step for each plugin. 
> 
>   http://opensync.org/wiki/docs/trunk
> 
> 
> note that it will install to /usr/local which is not under 
> package control
> and you need to remove it manually in case you want to get rid of it.

I have limited experience with SVN but I would be willing to experiment with
the development code. I tend to do my compiling on a different machine
(running Debian Sid), and then install the compiled binaries on my main
Lenny machine. I presume I could do that with 0.3x
 
> > I do contribute docs to some small opensource programs that 
> > I use (Zim
> > wiki, for example). However you do not want _me_ to write 
> > the docs for
> > opensync! If I do manage to get my E71 and KDE-PIM syncing, 
> > however, I
> > promise to document and publish the method.
> 
> Read existing trunk docs, comment them and we make them better. that's
> already a huge help.

It can often be very helpful for documentation to be written/edited by a
user rather than a developer, because a user is less likely to make
erroneous assumptions about what users need to know (or not). 
 
> > Nor can I code in C. I will join the IRC channel when I have some
> > time. Is there a preferable weekday / hour when knowledgable people
> > are on IRC?
> 
> Most of the people hang out there 24/7, we'll be waiting you.

See you there,

Chris ("Magnate" on IRC)

Re: [Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Martin O. <doc...@gm...>]

On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 17:15 +0000, Chris Carr wrote:
> Just wanted to chime in and say to Dotan that you're not alone - I too have
> just arrived that the conclusion that I'm fed up with Nokia's windows
> bloat-suite and I want to get opensync working for me, and I too am not a
> programmer. 

How goes integration work into the hardware layers? I haven't heard much
about how opensync is going to work in the future when you plug in
various devices or pair them up bluz wise.

Or are the systems not yet in place for this kind of integration? I've
been trying to push libbarry (blackberry support) to getting HAL device
capabilities listed.

Regards, Martin

Re: [Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Juha T. <Juh...@ik...>]

On Wednesday 19 November 2008 19:22:02 Martin Owens wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 17:15 +0000, Chris Carr wrote:
> > Just wanted to chime in and say to Dotan that you're not alone - I too have
> > just arrived that the conclusion that I'm fed up with Nokia's windows
> > bloat-suite and I want to get opensync working for me, and I too am not a
> > programmer. 
> 
> How goes integration work into the hardware layers? I haven't heard much
> about how opensync is going to work in the future when you plug in
> various devices or pair them up bluz wise.

It has already been decided that libopensync is a sync engine tying 
format and connection plugins together. Other projects are free to
implement upper layers and utilize libopensync as such engine.

Go to http://www.ohloh.net/ and compare opensync with for example Apache.
This is not a small project and community/manpower to develop is way
much smaller than other similar sized projects. 

Hopefully that will change somewhat once we have more polished product.

> Or are the systems not yet in place for this kind of integration? I've
> been trying to push libbarry (blackberry support) to getting HAL device
> capabilities listed.

Not sure. I do know that there are projects that somewhat overlap with this, implementing 
their own sync engine and GUI, all those hw detection layers etc. 
But imo it's good to have stuff in smaller chunks and keep simple 
interfaces between those.


Tuju

-- 
Varo hattupäisiä autoilijoita.

Re: [Opensync-users] Where to start?

[Martin O. <doc...@gm...>]

> It has already been decided that libopensync is a sync engine tying 
> format and connection plugins together. Other projects are free to
> implement upper layers and utilize libopensync as such engine.

The only problem I can see is one of position. If a project does not
expect to be used in a certain way it won't provide the required APIs or
be orientated in such a way as to make creating those other layers
impossible.

For instance the config files in 0.3x slaughter the possibility of
hardware detection and hal integration without having hackish glue.

While I can agree that small blocks are a good idea, if one of your
interfaces is expected to be hardware, you should at the very least
expect hal integration in other layers and understand what that means.
and at most lay groundwork for supporting it.

> Not sure. I do know that there are projects that somewhat overlap with this, implementing 
> their own sync engine and GUI, all those hw detection layers etc. 
> But imo it's good to have stuff in smaller chunks and keep simple 
> interfaces between those.

I'm going to be working on peer access, I believe it's more important
than syncing at the moment. An important divide into smaller blocks
would have been one project to provide data access another to do format
translation and yet another to provide syncing logic.

Providing a singular use case scenario from which developers/users can
build outwards may have been a better strategy than building as wide a
base of support without an end to end stack;

1) Hardware Detection (HAL)
2) Hardware Data Access (Unknown, Various, OpenSync)
3) Online Detection (Network Manager)
4) Online Services Access (Unknown, various, OpenSync)
5) Syncing (OpenSync, Conduit)
6) GUI Integration (Conduit Some)

We're no were near delivering something useful to users looking at end
to end stack.

Regards, Martin