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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-16 23:17:44
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Hi, > > As for aos's argument that traders are dead wether they have fast > auto-refire or not. That maybe true, but does it has to be true for slow > connections in warships?. Should the only viable option for slow connections > be to planet bust and run away? > To compensate fire and run tactics even moving would need a delay. Move or fire, wait 15 seconds. For slow connections the waiting is invisible covered in the load time ... for fast connections it is anoying. Where is the compromize? Of course you could allow autoreturn fire without the penalty of having to wait a realod time in that case. But that would mean ships which just wait IS fire as much as they get attacked. So 3 fighters can not attack one big war ship as the big war ship will fire on all three. With either "no return fire" or reload time on return fire as well the big ship can either autofire on the first attacking it, or manualy descide on which to fire. With no reload time at all and auto return fire without reload time the big ship will kill several of the smaler ones ... regardless of speed I think. The problem is not so much fast versus slow connections ... the advantage is allways to the one entering sector last. Its very unlikely that the guy in sector has a reason to relaod sector and will see the entering one. Except: he is waiting there in a minefield anyway and reloading all the time anyway. Another anoying point is that you get a full screen combat message if you enter a mined sector, instead of current sector(plus an additional damage report or something). You can not even move without reloading as you have no move controls. I died once to MB because of that. Missjumped into a minefield and he could move into the sector faster and attack and even kill me faster than I could refresh the screen. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Oliver D. B. <oli...@ma...> - 2003-01-16 22:59:10
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> 1) Is bad for people with slower connections Yes people with high speed connections are practically invisible in ME. They can attack and run out without anyone seeing them. I experienced this many times. By the time I had refreshed screen the person could attack and run. With no auto return fire high speed connections can kill any ship they want to. A simple stratregy, hit, move away. Hit again, move away. If the slow connection guy tries to follow you you simply move away. > > 2) Is too good with cloak and 1 on 1 combat Again shoot and run away, no need to recloak. Why recloak the guy wont see you > > 3) Will encourage hunters cause they can now hunt longer with less > > damage Yes by attacking and moving away you gain no damage and thus never need to refill. You can simply continue to wear the oposition down > > 4) Is a death sentence to anyone who doesn't refresh or doesn't look > > at the screen every few secs > > Its could be a deaths sentence for all who dosent move fast enough. I do realise that high speed connection always will have an advantage. But thats no reason to make it completely impossible. Thats like saying "We cannot prevent murders so lets make it legal". By making the gab even bigger we will only add to the frustration of never being able to beat the higher connections person. Imagine to loose a 150 mill ship, not because U were lasy or stupid but simply because your screen wouldent load fast enough. As for aos's argument that traders are dead wether they have fast auto-refire or not. That maybe true, but does it has to be true for slow connections in warships?. Should the only viable option for slow connections be to planet bust and run away? |
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-16 22:47:21
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Probably the dev team should open the spec for this. I comment in your message below, after giving the corner stones we talked about some weeks/monthes ago. (I have no idea if those are still valid). > Michael van Dongen wrote: > > I've seen this discussion come by a few times so I'm just gonna state > my view for the record > > I'm in favor of auto return fire for several reasons... > > No auto return fire : > > 1) Is bad for people with slower connections Why? > 2) Is too good with cloak and 1 on 1 combat Why? > 3) Will encourage hunters cause they can now hunt longer with less > damage Why? > 4) Is a death sentence to anyone who doesn't refresh or doesn't look > at the screen every few secs > Erm, shit, wanted to comment. > Now the suggestion is a good one but I'd turn it into a tech or create > a new race and make it their ship tech instead > > Worst case scenario is that this suggestion will chase away all > non-hardcore players > > btw, It's BRUTICUS but now using my main e-mail for this list and not > the complaints one > Base idea is: a) ship weapons have a reload time like TFP has. My proposal was 5 seconds but meanwhile I would go for 10 seconds. Further: b) ships/pilots have an option to activate auto return fire. Explaination: b) means players can descide what they want. In conjunction with a) the problem is: weapon reload time will/should apply regardless wether you fire or you auto return fire. So a warrior likely will switch off auto return fire because he likes to descide himself on what to fire, probably not on the guy who fired on him. A trader likely might have return fire activated ... as he only can run and at least would fire back automaticaly if(before) he dies. The basic idea is to make the delay that long that slow connections wait during the laod time of the page(and do not realize the delay at all) while fast connections have to accept a noticeable delay after page display. The extension to that above was a true randome display of players in sector or options for sorting by AR/DR or similar stuff, to avoid that all fire on the first target IS. Anywy, no idea if the actual spec is still this one, or if it ever was :-) At least that was my proposal before the game ended. I see far more problems in to high weapon damage and to less armor for traders currently. Even with a reload time of 15 seconds, after 30 seconds(2 rounds), a lot of traders are dead. So a to slow connection will kill you regardless wether we have new or old combat, and regardless wether you have auto return fire or not. Ships like the old, not the new, fighters relied on "no" autoreturn fire. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-16 22:14:39
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I like this one, Michael. Proabably Carnaugh can caome up with nice numbers to fill it? XP gain == XP loss should be achieved, like Carnaugh allredy did in his numbers. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Michael v. D. <mi...@ci...> - 2003-01-16 18:22:06
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I've seen this discussion come by a few times so I'm just gonna state my view for the record I'm in favor of auto return fire for several reasons... No auto return fire : 1) Is bad for people with slower connections 2) Is too good with cloak and 1 on 1 combat 3) Will encourage hunters cause they can now hunt longer with less damage 4) Is a death sentence to anyone who doesn't refresh or doesn't look at the screen every few secs Now the suggestion is a good one but I'd turn it into a tech or create a new race and make it their ship tech instead Worst case scenario is that this suggestion will chase away all non-hardcore players btw, It's BRUTICUS but now using my main e-mail for this list and not the complaints one |
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From: Michael v. D. <mi...@ci...> - 2003-01-16 18:13:50
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The race abilities setup version 3 K, I'm leaving out the race descriptions to shorten the file. There are several important points to note before starting 1) Several modifiers were dropped due to coding restrictions 2) A production/building/research modifier will be inserted for each race 3) I will no longer fill in the values 4) And most importantly, this is an alternative. Not meant to replace previous versions Goals : Promote teamwork Force players to choose a style Create diversity Balancing tool for ship list Possible coded modifiers : Research Production Building Personal race relations Global race relations Racial kill Local tax Maximum Alignment Xp loss upon death *All subdivided into positive and negative Possible non-coded modifiers : Starting Alignment Xp gain upon kill *All subdivided into positive and negative Default assignments per race :1 permanent positive bonus (PB) 1 permanent negative (PN) 1 building modifier (BM) 1 production modifier (PM) 1 research modifier (RM) 1 starting modifier (SM) Perceived race segregation : Zyck'lirg - A bug race that has so much population that building is fast and xp means very little. Their ships are meant for traveling long distances and they range from medium sized traders to large warship. Since most of their ships are biologic they do not show up on any long range scanners. Xollian - Evil Hunters that have trouble getting along with other races in various ways. Their main power is the cloaking technology and their efficient weapons factories. KEA - Major traders that are friendly with everyone but have trouble producing due to inefficiency. They are liked by all other races for their trading abilities and can continue trading even all the races are at war with each other Paragon - A tech loving race. They are masters of deception even going as far as masking their own ships. Due to their love for technology they keep large supplies of power ready so they can install the latest devices. Mawlor - Born warriors that are good at fighting but don't like to lose and consider building beneath them. They dislike sharing any of the glory of combat with others of their species so they rely on a few per ship compensated by immense amounts of robotic drones Now to assign abilities to each race without values Zyck'lirg : PB) X% less xp loss upon death PN) unaffected by positive global race relations BM) X% less building cost PM) X% more production cost RM) X% more research cost SM) -X global race relations Xollian : PB) Do not pay local taxes on selling goods PN) Max alignment < 500 BM) X% more building cost PM) X% less production cost RM) X% less research cost SM) -X alignment KEA : PB) Unaffected by negative global race relations PN) X% less gain upon kill BM) X% less building cost PM) X% more production cost RM) X% less research cost SM) +X alignment Paragon : PB) X% more xp gain upon kill PN) Maximum personal race relations < 500 BM) X% more building cost PM) X% more production cost RM) X% less research cost SM) +X personal race relations with all races Mawlor : PB) Maximum personal race relations > 500 PN) X% more xp loss upon death BM) X% more building cost PM) X% less production cost RM) X% more research cost SM) -X personal race relations Someone with more knowledge of game numbers and stats will have to assign the actual values As always feel free to comment |
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From: Danny F. <da...@fr...> - 2003-01-16 16:19:47
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At 15:05 2003-01-16 +0000, you wrote: > >>Instead of giving one +50 allign and the other -50, give the first one > >>+100 and leave the other one at *0*. > > >Why? I vote for decisive advantages and disadvantages, make break > >decisions, not minor stuff that can be easily overlooked when choosing > >Its a difference if I only have 50 points less than someone else or if >I have -50 points, which have probably a dramatic effect on trading, >IMP protection and other areas. Well the being minus aligned (evil) will have benefits as well that might make choosing to be so a helluva lot more tempting... so the 5% price increase in ships might be well worth it. > >race... or we're back to "Who has the best ships, never mind the rest" > >and thats what we didn't want... right? > >Thats anyway the case, espacialy if you do not follow my point of view >the only reason to take a race is "can yopu cope" with the ships ... Trying to follow your line of thought but you seam to be overly intent on making everything even, too even... wasn't it you who hit me over the head to look at the player types? >The only parameters wich are not "user fixable" are XP loss/gain and >research/construction/fabrication costs. > >So, who realy cares about allign? Only those who will write in forum >about it. Well only because we gave some significance to it, it costs to be minus aligned, difference is now they get something for it. (No not narcotics) > > >I simply do not like it that way as it is to war/weapon focused. > > > > Well so the construction, building & research points are slated towards > war? > > I didn't see that... but maybe... > > > > /Wiz > >increasing weapon construction price for KEA ... is not realy an >economic thing, is it? Building my turrets/shields/dhs for more money >... or less ... is not a war issue? Researching ... wehre the only >things I can do with research is weapon construction ... is not a war >issue? Well depends, it might be for an alliance. Don't you think so? >Finaly: it makes more sense to read/analyse my mail in context. Instead >of trying to make me look stupid by commenting every sentence isolated >:-) > >If you don't like me to give my thoughts to OME internals ... then just >tell me and I leave the list. > >aos Erm, if you think I make you look silly, you need to sharpen your arguments, this has *nothing* to do with you, only the issues at hand. Although I'd really appreciate you showing a wee bit humility before the fact that your calculations / ideas / suggestions *may* not be the only ones that are correct, there are alot of people on this list that can actually have half a brain and know how to use it. |
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From: Danny F. <da...@fr...> - 2003-01-16 16:13:20
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Ok i see what you mean, my point is, that the (maybe) huge advantage of being an evil Xolian with the Raid option might warrant a few HUGE bonuses in other races... U see what I mean? At 15:06 2003-01-16 +0000, you wrote: >What I am saying is they even out overall, obviously different races get >different bonuses in different areas. Or are you sugggesting that we make >1 race better then another with these Racial Abilities? Like give one >race a 200% increase in EXP as a bonus and another race a 1% Discount on >Light guns? All I am saying was try to make the bonuses equal, ie not >like that example I just used. Anyways I think I have done this and they >are good. > >Carnaugh > > ><< >Entire point is "The numbers DON'T have to even out" look at player styles >instead. >Player A is predominantly a trader he selects the race with the best race >advantages for that particular job. >Player B is predominantly a Player Killer he don't give a tats arse about >trading other than a means to get higher XP so he gets more proficient in >killing. >Player C is predominantly a warrior but also trader for himself and his >alliance he will select the race that are good to average to both but >leans mostly to good war attributes. >Player D is predominantly a loner and want to do everything himself, and >he will be extinct faster than a bat out of hell, so we don't have to >bother about him at all. >Player E is predominantly a politician / organizer this is the trickiest >one because he might choose the best all round race that has average >overall abilities, but can swing either way. > >The rest of the player categories fall where they may, they either don't >care / understand and simply live with either what others tell them or >what they happened to choose. > >This is not to make the racial attributes balance out but to make em >counteract as efficiently the above player styles. > >Don't be afraid of letting the numbers count. > >/Wiz > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months >http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Thawte.com >Understand how to protect your customers personal information by implementing >SSL on your Apache Web Server. Click here to get our FREE Thawte Apache >Guide: http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0029en >_______________________________________________ >Openme-developers mailing list >Ope...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openme-developers |
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From: Justin S. <jus...@ho...> - 2003-01-16 15:06:31
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What I am saying is they even out overall, obviously different races get different bonuses in different areas. Or are you sugggesting that we make 1 race better then another with these Racial Abilities? Like give one race a 200% increase in EXP as a bonus and another race a 1% Discount on Light guns? All I am saying was try to make the bonuses equal, ie not like that example I just used. Anyways I think I have done this and they are good. Carnaugh << Entire point is "The numbers DON'T have to even out" look at player styles instead. Player A is predominantly a trader he selects the race with the best race advantages for that particular job. Player B is predominantly a Player Killer he don't give a tats arse about trading other than a means to get higher XP so he gets more proficient in killing. Player C is predominantly a warrior but also trader for himself and his alliance he will select the race that are good to average to both but leans mostly to good war attributes. Player D is predominantly a loner and want to do everything himself, and he will be extinct faster than a bat out of hell, so we don't have to bother about him at all. Player E is predominantly a politician / organizer this is the trickiest one because he might choose the best all round race that has average overall abilities, but can swing either way. The rest of the player categories fall where they may, they either don't care / understand and simply live with either what others tell them or what they happened to choose. This is not to make the racial attributes balance out but to make em counteract as efficiently the above player styles. Don't be afraid of letting the numbers count. /Wiz >> _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup |
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From: Justin S. <jus...@ho...> - 2003-01-15 21:50:29
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aos, actually I agree with you in general, it would be better maybe to have no penalites and just equalize pluses among the races. I don't mind either way. The only thing I want is for the pluses and minuses to equal out. Bruticus' original #s didn't do this. Mine do the job much better. I guess having +s and -s cancel allows us to have a Middle race that has no changes. For instance if we did add a 6th race, I would suggest making Paragon (as it already sort of is) the middle race in all aspects. Bruticus you want Team Penalties and Team Bonuses, but for some races these aren't really that at all. For instance you call the Mawlor increase in building cost a Negative Team, but really it is a Negative only for the Mawlor player. That is why the Mawlor having Military Payment bonus for a Positive Team item is fine. A Xollian with high alignment gets cheap ships but he also buys them for all his alliance mates and allied alliances. Many of your benefit/penalties are either both Team or Individual. Even at 50% cost it is hardly worth the Xollian player to fly around to everyones base and build their guns for them. Producing Guns doesn't give EXP. So a Xollian player doesn't really want to build guns for people (especially at his own base since it uses goods). Yes it may help the alliance overall but it starts to hurt the Xollian player himself, if he is going to fully make use of his bonus like other races by using his benefit as much as he can. I think with the Numbers I have given they are reasonably balanced. Xollians probably have the worst Race Abilities then Mawlor (an unlucky Mawlor player will really suffer while a lucky one can really climb the rankings fast). The 3 other races are more well off but people percieve Mawlor and Xollian to be better so I guess that is fine if the Racial Traits help KEA, Paragon and Zyck a bit more (although Brut your #s were really off, although you did say they were just preliminary). Carnaugh _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup |
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From: Stephen L <ste...@ho...> - 2003-01-15 19:56:50
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Zycklirg Hordes:- A spiritual race, that has lived in peace with all races for a millennium. They have spent their time building up a strong social order and protecting their resources. They have researched many ways to save energy, whether it is construction or on travelling though the vast universe. Their peace was shattered over 500 years ago when their spiritual home of Gebela was invaded and the spiritual home was destroyed by the KEA. With reason and talks failing the Zycklirg where left with no choice but to fight. With no experience in war the Ritua Priests called on the Secretive and ancient order of the Spiritcon to protect their way of life. The Zycklirg Hordes are highly trained warrior monks who in a short period of time recruited and train large numbers of Zycklirgs. The Zycklirg Hordes massed the largest fleet of ships ever seen to drive the KEA out. The battle of Gebela was not won by either side and cost the lives of 250 million Zycklirg Hordes. Following the battle the Ritua Priests order that all Zycklirg shall serve in the Zycklirg Hordes and that research in warfare be the main focus until this KEA threat be removed for once and for all. You have read about it in the history books, now you must answer the call and make history too and defend your races way of live. Are you up to it? If you are a ship awaits you! Kallan Emporium Acquisitions:- (K.E.A). The Kallan Emporium race has only lived above the surface of their planet for the last 200 years. Their advances however have been very fast. Their ships being able to hold vast amounts of much needed cargo. They have spent most of their resources and now search the universe in the search for worlds to mine and strip of all natural minerals. During their travels they have made many enemy, but now they are at peace with all but the Zycklirg. This war has raged now for 5 decades with neither side willing to talk peace. The war started over the mining of Gebela, a planet rich in minerals but also an ancient spiritual home to the Zycklirg. The first major battle taking place in the Gebela sector and resulting in the death of 200 million Kallan Emporium Doki and the lost of 900 billion oraim energy crystals. The years of war and mining have taken their toll on their social. Everything is now focused towards the claiming of resources with young Kallan Emporium being forced to enlist in the Emporium Acquisitions . The Emporium Acquisitions are made up of traders and warriors, ready to fly to any part of the universe to claim a planet and remove resources that they find there. Now you have reached the age of enlistment. The Emporium Acquisitions require your services to maintain the supply of goods and riches. Paragon:- The Paragon race was once a great and powerful race spanning many solar systems. They prided themselves on having knowledge. This quest for knowledge had compelled them to research and explore the galaxy. During there many years of research they discover the technology for the creation of Xollians. This lead to many years of high productive and many advances in technology. But no one could imagine the cost on the Paragon society. Things started to go wrong, as the Xollians started think for themselves. The Xollians secretly plotted their escape and their numbers grew as did the concern of the council. Weeks before a planned reductions in the Xollian numbers they took over several key facilities. Many Xollian died as they tried to escape but a few of them did. Many years had past and many Xollian had been de-activated, the search for those that remained had been stopped. A new danger to our way of living had immerged. A few scientists had notice the Veis star getting larger and larger. As its brightness grew so the planets environment began to shift from one extreme to the other. The Paragon decided they had no other choice but relocate their whole population to a distant galaxy. As they left the star imploded into a SuperNova destroying the whole galaxy and now nothing remains in that part of space but dead space. Now you must help to rebuild the Paragon empire and to hunt down the remaining Xollians who still haunt the memories of your people. Help your race succeed in their new home and in their quest. Xollian Mantis:- (Xollian) Having been engineered and breed only a few decades ago the Xollian have as yet not discovered much of the universe. What they have discovered they have had to fight for. The Xollian where engineered 72 years ago by Paragon scientists. They where breed for the sole purpose of hunting. Their creators frequently sent many thousand Xollian to their death on suicide missions in there search for knowledge. After 47 years of this way of life the first Xollian (Talut) gained the ability of independent thought. This was kept secret for a further 5 years as Talut help many other Xollians to achieve the level of independent thinking. As time past the Xollians increased in number and in their desire for freedom. The secret council of the Xollians planned their escape even though they knew would cost many lives. They took over several key Paragon starbases, including the Nemimus Centre (Paragon starship research centre). They held these facilities for almost a week while they prepped their starships for their escape. The time came to make their new ships (including some experiential cloaked ships) out though the Paragons fleet that they new was waiting for them. Many Xollian where lost as they broke though the Paragon fleet including Talut. But escape they did. Now you the latest and most advanced Xollian have been engineered, you have been granted the honour of being assigned to the Xollian Mantis. It is your duty to find a new area for your race to populate. Mawlor Royal Guard :- The Mawlors have been around for centuries. They are the charismatic holy warriors of Valok who fool many people into thinking they are being helped, when in fact the Mawlors are only helping themselves. Overall, Mawlors seek glory and prestige. They do not care how it is obtained, but they wish to be recognized by large amounts of people for their skill and prowess. If they achieve this by helping the poor, so be it. But often times they will make deals on the side with the enemy in case things don't pan out, or to enhance the perceived glory they get for the "valiant rescue". In the end, it comes down to looking out for number One. The home of the Mawlors originate from the planet Mertren, which lies on the edge of the delta quadrant. However Mawlors have for the last thousand years been a nomadic race who roamed the universe constantly looking for new challenges and excitement. Their one turning point was when they took part in a great race war. Siding with Paragon allies. Even though they were extremely skilled in combat, the Mawlor armies and their allies were greatly outnumbered at the Battle of Basheba Prime and were defeated. The remaining Mawlor factions gathered their families and fled for the very survival of their race, contrary to the very nature of their being. The structure of Mawlor society is largely based on a warrior-like code of honor and relationships between families. Honour, pride, and trust are the foundations on which Mawlor society is based. Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the society is that there are very few written laws and no one has the sole position of enforcing them. When young Mawlors reach a certain age they are required to swear on their families honour that they will do their best to respect their own kind and protect that honor. Lying, stealing, cheating, and other such acts are simply considered to be beneath them. Any Mawlor who has proved him or herself to be dishonorable will be punished mercilessly by their peers. Now you have come of age and as the eldest member of your house it is your honour to join the Royal Guard and seek to honour your house. With this sort of history/background to each of the races it would be possible (if necessary) to start each race with different realtion levels. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 |
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-15 17:06:20
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The point is: you can achieve the same by making the advantage of the others higher. Instead of giving one +50 allign and the other -50, give the first one +100 and leave the other one at *0*. I did not want to say that you did noit think or math about it. I onyl say: most players won't like it like you did it ... they now have the fealing that they need to avoid to pick the most disadvantages. They players woiuld like to pick the most advantages. Bottom line both might look the same for game mechanics, but with avoiding negative numbers the payers are likely more happy. Your explanaition makes fullyy sence, and I did not doubt that, however, I disagree. I simply do not like it that way as it is to war/weapon focused. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: <out...@wa...> - 2003-01-15 14:57:47
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> From: Angelo Schneider <ang...@oo...> > Only I question the team work aspect. > > The role in the team will likely be determined during playing and be far > away from the races abilities(IMHO). Well I said they will promote teamwork, not enforce it. You could do everything yourself but working with others will save you a lot of money in the end. Also I was trying to put a stop to arranged alliances. Even MC had the big idea to all pick 1 or a maximum of 2 different races. > The guys making the building will very likely be KEA ... because they > have to carry hughe amounts of goods to the bases for construction. Yes KEA are still best for hauling low lvl goods and that's a big advantage. So in order for them NOT to be able to do everything by themselves I gave another race the big building bonus > What about XP gain? And time? E.g. Zycklirg could build faster .... and > KEA gain more XP via building, but lets say it takes longer for them? I dropped a lot of modifiers to make life easier on the coders. What I have to go on now is what is already coded and even then I added a few small onces > From: "Farid Khan" <Far...@ro...> > Yes they do affect ship balance. But the effect can be minimized. > > The proposed setting changes still puts KEA on top for trading. They > will have an easier time trading anywhere they want simply since war and > global relations won't affect them. > > Nothing will take that away from KEA. However, another race, say > Paragon, can be given a large heavy mover having the same number of > holds of the KEA ship, and if paragon's ceiling for personal or global > relations are significantly lower than KEA's then they will always make > less money and less experience. BUT, it won't affect trading with > regards to upgrades petitions or refilling ports, since their large > trader will annihilate them as fast as any KEA would. Well Paragon don't have that penalty so you don't need to change the shiplist __________________________________________________________ http://www.wanadoo.nl/ |
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From: Justin S. <jus...@ho...> - 2003-01-15 14:39:07
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To Respond to some of aos' comments... I didn't come up with the Alignment differences idea (BRUTICUS came up with everything to vary I just balanced the #s). There are only a few abilities we can change without alot of coding. One of these is alignment. Of all the 5 races the one I think most associated with evil is Xollian. Most Xollian players have chosen that race because they want to hunt. So I don't think it will be too much of a problem to have Xollians hunting to try to get their alignment back up (I played Xollian last game and the race I killed most was Xollian). So at the start alot of Xollians may hunt each other if they want to be Good. The Military payment variance isn't really that much (2%). Yes that is 2 million on a 100 million ship, but really that is chump change to a KEA player. The reason Mawlor gets more Military Payments is to show that the Mawlor Economy is based on war and the KEA Economy on trade (would be silly to have it the other way around). 150% Weapon Production Cost is not really that much. H gun costs ~3 million. Producing guns is half price (1.5 million). So a KEA player would pay 2.25 million to make a H gun. Still a discount over buying them. But if a KEA player wants he can just buy the guns from the shops at full price and not really suffer much from it (thus near elminating their penalty). Also buying forces at 90% of cost more then makes up for that. You make 6-7 guns per ship, but how many CDs do you go through and how many mines do you go through in a game? I did do some math to come up with these #s. Again Mawlor has higher Military Payments cause it goes with the race (and again it isn't that huge of a benefit 2.5% is 2.5 million on a 100 million ship). Considering Mawlor has the worst efficiency tradeships (Duke is 600 @ 5.5TPS) and a Penalty to race relations they suffer at trading. Also they have building penalty (everyone will build no matter the penalty for EXP) so a Mawlor will have to spend more money to gain the same EXP as anyone else. There is really no need to modify build/research/production times or EXP gained. We can just modify the money needed to do those things and that will allow people to do more in that area cause they won't have to spend as much and be able to build/research/produce with less interruptions. So Zyck will gain more EXP from building and Mawlor less. As it is a Mawlor spends 5% more money to get the same EXP as anyone else. A Zyck player spends 90% of the money another player spends to get the same EXP. KEA, because of the relation bonus which allows them to trade anywhere despite war and because they have the best Trade Ships already WILL get the most EXP from trading. They don't need a bonus on top of that. Think of the Mawlor/Zyck exp difference this way... Mawlors are Warriors, so they live by the Sword and die by the Sword. Ie they get great reward and prestige from making a kill, but get knocked down the ranks harder for dying. Just as with their low accuracy high damage weapons (and variable damage Combat Drones), Mawlor life is risk. Great reward comes with luck and skil, but if you are unlucky (or unskillful) you'll find yourself at the bottom of the rankings. Zyck are only a part of the whole. The individual doesn't matter as much as the whole. Therefore a Zyck player must fight against this to raise in the rankings. But also failure isn't noticed as much on an individual level. So a Zyck player gains less reward from making a kill, but also suffers less from dying. Note also this: with 1 on 1 combat Mawlors make more juicy targets since everyone will want that extra 5% EXP from them, just as a Zyck player can hide since they make less juicy targets then the norm. With a little bit of thinking, alot of logic and some math you can balance anything. That is how I balance the world on the pinpoint of my intellect. Carnaugh - that last line was a joke (I think?) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup |
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From: Justin S. <jus...@ho...> - 2003-01-15 13:36:27
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I changed the Zyck and Mawlor EXP %s. At 95%/105% it works out to 5k Exp difference on a 1 million EXP player kill (at 10% base). I made the gain/lose for each of those races the same. If they aren't the same then it is an additional penalty to all the other races since Mawlor/Zyck would lose less then they gain from kills (unless we are creating EXP with kills which I think is a bad idea, killing should result in EXP transfering not creating or destroying it). The Racial descriptions and ME history can be put in the game when it is avaliable (can it not?). In the mean time we can use whatever. Zyck'lirg: PB) 95% xp change upon Death (ie 9.5% if 10% base EXP switch) PN) 95% xp change upon Kill (ie 9.5% if 10% base EXP switch) PT) 90% Build Cost NT) 110% Research Cost SM) -50 Global Race Relations (all other Races) Xollian: PB) 120% Alignment Gain on Evil Kills PN) Maximum Alignment is 450 PT) 50% Weapon Production Cost NT) 105% Research Cost SM) -50 alignment KEA: PB) Unaffected by Negative Global Race Relations PN) 80% Military Payment (ie 8% if 10% base Military Payment) PT) 90% Forces Cost NT) 150% Weapon Production Cost SM) +50 alignment Paragon: PB) Maximum Alignment is 550 PN) 80% Alignment Gain on Evil Kills PT) 90% Research Cost NT) 110% Forces Cost SM) +50 Personal Race Relations with all other Races Mawlor: PB) 105% xp change upon Kill (ie 10.5% if 10% base EXP switch) PN) 105% xp change upon Death (ie 10.5% if 10% base EXP switch) PT) 125% Military Payment (ie 12.5% if 10% base Military Payment) NT) 105% Build Cost SM) -50 Personal Race Relations with all other Races Carnaugh _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 |
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-15 11:51:50
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Hi, The overall picture looks good. I do not like negative allign however. If nothing has changed you only can get better allign by killing an other negative alligned player. So you force a palying style oppon a player: go and kill! IMO the military payment varies to much ... KEA has it hard enough to kill another races ship! They shold get MORE not LESS for their victroy. 150% weapon production cost is far to much also. They make more money, ok. But why does one think they need to spend also more money? That the best war race gets on top of that an additional military payment is ironic. Well, it fits the race description ... You have only XP changes for kills/death ... what is about trade, building and research? Some thoughts: I had guessed that the tech race, paragon, can research more easy and gets more XP. On the other hand KEA could get more XP via trade and zyck via construction(and cheaper and less time). Then it is more logical that Mawlor gets more XP via killing. aos Justin Stedman wrote: > > I fixed the #s and balanced them. Changed a few abilities here and there so > one race wasn't getting huge bonuses over another (as it was before). > Saruman is working on a Story/History of ME which includes the Racial > Profiles. I (and he) think these 2 things are related, ie the history of ME > is the races and how they came to being and shaped the ME Universe. > > Zyck'lirg: > PB) 97% xp change upon Death (ie 9.7% if 10% base EXP switch) > PN) 98% xp change upon Kill (ie 9.8% if 10% base EXP switch) > PT) 95% Build Cost > NT) 110% Research Cost > SM) -50 Global Race Relations (all other Races) > > Xollian: > PB) 120% Alignment Gain on Evil Kills > PN) Maximum Alignment is 450 > PT) 50% Weapon Production Cost > NT) 105% Research Cost > SM) -50 alignment > > KEA: > PB) Unaffected by Negative Global Race Relations > PN) 80% Military Payment (ie 8% if 10% base Military Payment) > PT) 90% Forces Cost > NT) 150% Weapon Production Cost > SM) +50 alignment > > Paragon: > PB) Maximum Alignment is 550 > PN) 80% Alignment Gain on Evil Kills > PT) 90% Research Cost > NT) 110% Forces Cost > SM) +50 Personal Race Relations with all other Races > > Mawlor: > PB) 103% xp change upon Kill (ie 10.3% if 10% base EXP switch) > PN) 102% xp change upon Death (ie 10.2% if 10% base EXP switch) > PT) 120% Military Payment (ie 12% if 10% base Military Payment) > NT) 105% Build Cost > SM) -50 Personal Race Relations with all other Races > > Carnaugh > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Oliver D. B. <oli...@ma...> - 2003-01-15 09:10:44
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Ok guys guess I have to wawe my project admin stick here :) We need a closeure on this subject. I want ME to be running start of next month and we should have this closed before, so we dont have todo everyone in the last minute. So last chance to have an opinion will be 24 of January at that time I will simply add the best suggestion so far. middy |
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From: Justin S. <jus...@ho...> - 2003-01-15 02:40:34
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I fixed the #s and balanced them. Changed a few abilities here and there so
one race wasn't getting huge bonuses over another (as it was before).
Saruman is working on a Story/History of ME which includes the Racial
Profiles. I (and he) think these 2 things are related, ie the history of ME
is the races and how they came to being and shaped the ME Universe.
Zyck'lirg:
PB) 97% xp change upon Death (ie 9.7% if 10% base EXP switch)
PN) 98% xp change upon Kill (ie 9.8% if 10% base EXP switch)
PT) 95% Build Cost
NT) 110% Research Cost
SM) -50 Global Race Relations (all other Races)
Xollian:
PB) 120% Alignment Gain on Evil Kills
PN) Maximum Alignment is 450
PT) 50% Weapon Production Cost
NT) 105% Research Cost
SM) -50 alignment
KEA:
PB) Unaffected by Negative Global Race Relations
PN) 80% Military Payment (ie 8% if 10% base Military Payment)
PT) 90% Forces Cost
NT) 150% Weapon Production Cost
SM) +50 alignment
Paragon:
PB) Maximum Alignment is 550
PN) 80% Alignment Gain on Evil Kills
PT) 90% Research Cost
NT) 110% Forces Cost
SM) +50 Personal Race Relations with all other Races
Mawlor:
PB) 103% xp change upon Kill (ie 10.3% if 10% base EXP switch)
PN) 102% xp change upon Death (ie 10.2% if 10% base EXP switch)
PT) 120% Military Payment (ie 12% if 10% base Military Payment)
NT) 105% Build Cost
SM) -50 Personal Race Relations with all other Races
Carnaugh
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-14 21:59:40
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Hi, A note on Hawklans comment: > I also believe that a broader spectrum > should be applied to all the races, and we also should avoid assigning > negative values as much as possible. > This makes sence. Another game I play, space at coldfirestudios, has about 12 races. None has a negative value in its abilities, all have one(or more) positive bonus somewhere. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Farid K. <Far...@ro...> - 2003-01-14 21:53:41
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Yes they do affect ship balance. But the effect can be minimized. The proposed setting changes still puts KEA on top for trading. They will have an easier time trading anywhere they want simply since war and global relations won't affect them. Nothing will take that away from KEA. However, another race, say Paragon, can be given a large heavy mover having the same number of holds of the KEA ship, and if paragon's ceiling for personal or global relations are significantly lower than KEA's then they will always make less money and less experience. BUT, it won't affect trading with regards to upgrades petitions or refilling ports, since their large trader will annihilate them as fast as any KEA would. Don't get me wrong, it could be that upon looking at the end result that we won't propose any changes to the shiplist to compensate. But, assigning racial criteria like this allows us to assign artificial values that can be compensated with different ship design. All in all, I STILL like the concept. However, I don't believe that rushing into it is a good idea. I also believe that a broader spectrum should be applied to all the races, and we also should avoid assigning negative values as much as possible. But as it has been said, it is only one person's view Hawklan -----Original Message----- From: ope...@li... [mailto:ope...@li...] On Behalf Of Angelo Schneider Sent: January 14, 2003 4:36 PM To: Michael van Dongen Cc: ope...@li... Subject: Re: [Openme-developers] Race abilities with values and more stuff erm ... IMHO your proposals do not affect ship balance. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Take your first step towards giving your online business a competitive advantage. Test-drive a Thawte SSL certificate - our easy online guide will show you how. Click here to get started: http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/redirect.pl?thaw0027en _______________________________________________ Openme-developers mailing list Ope...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openme-developers |
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-14 21:36:07
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erm ... IMHO your proposals do not affect ship balance. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-14 21:32:39
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Hi, nice work Michael. Only I question the team work aspect. The role in the team will likely be determined during playing and be far away from the races abilities(IMHO). Frankly: I realy doubt I can convince one of my "builders" in my alliance to play Zycklirg. (The race you gave the build advantage to) The guys making the building will very likely be KEA ... because they have to carry hughe amounts of goods to the bases for construction. The same for paragon ... in ship iteration 2 they had not realy competitive traders (KEA top traders, Mawlor second best trader) ... but their personal relation bonus affects trade. All traders will choose KEA or Mawlor .... (as long as the trade ship advantages do not/have not shift/ed) People currently choose race because of the ships. To get them choosing race for other reasons ... the ships should not conflict with the races special abilities ... or vice versa. What about XP gain? And time? E.g. Zycklirg could build faster .... and KEA gain more XP via building, but lets say it takes longer for them? aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Michael v. D. <mi...@ci...> - 2003-01-14 21:12:57
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Paragon The Paragons used to be a fairly normal race in the global scheme of things. Their culture and technology were all standard up until a few dozen years ago when a huge change in racial mentality occurred During the global communication era the entire population became caught up in a race for the latest technological oddities. This resulted in a mad drive to fulfill the demand of the population which flooded the market with all sorts of unique tech. Even their first steps into space and subsequent trading were only a side effect from their search for new resources to produce the next generation of gimmicks. Or ---------------------------- Having evolved from a pirate like society the Paragon have a rather unusual view of both life and goods. While not as ruthless as the old civilization they nonetheless believe that what they can see, they can take. At first glance a typical Paragon comes across as very friendly with the best of intentions. However it is best never to turn your back on them for they are not as friendly as they appear. Thanks to their way of life the Paragon have mastered the art of lies and illusions in order to lull anyone they encounter into a false sense of security. Once they see an opportunity though they won't hesitate to relieve you of your money, goods and ship. On the other hand some Paragon have schemed for years and made themselves very popular across the galaxy without ever committing an act of evil . but that just means they are going after very big prizes Mawlor The Mawlor as a race has always been very aggressive and warlike throughout history which has been rather big problem the last few decades. With their weapons becoming bigger and better their population began to decrease at an alarming rate. In order to cut down on their losses some Mawlor generals began probing the idea of using robotic warriors. Even in the early stages of development this plan proved to be very effective and after a few short years most of the fighting was between drones instead of the population itself. This freed up a large portion of Mawlors to finally begin looking towards the stars. This eventually led to the discovery of the other races where the Mawlor soon found a new outlet for their warrior instincts. KEA Despite what people may think the KEA do not focus on trade because of some desire to buy out the universe. They simply have to buy more resources because their factories are incredibly inefficient. To even produce the most basic commodities they need vast amounts of resources due to underdeveloped industry and a horrible bureaucratic system of management. So they were one of the first to enter space in search of more goods because their home world no longer had any. This has forced the KEA to become expert barterers that are valued, and needed, by other races throughout the galaxy. Xollian The Xollians today are a far cry from their earlier civilization. Several hundred years ago their planet was polluted beyond it's capability to support normal life. This had such a disastrous effect on the Xollian population that each next generation was born mutated. The parts of the population that weren't yet afflicted began casting out the mutated people to desolate regions of their planet and were not allowed back into the normal cities. This resulted in violent hate from the mutated ones and soon they started researching ways to move about the "clean" Xollians unnoticed. After a few decades where the normal Xollians kept decreasing and the mutated gained numbers they finally perfected the first cloaking devices. Armed with these devices and a xenophobic hate they quickly killed off the rest of the old generations. And now they have been let lose on the galaxy . Zyck'lirg The Zyck'lirg are a class 4 insectoid race with a high degree of intelligence and strong aggressive natural instincts. They are governed by a single Hive Queen through a telepathic link but there is a slight problem with that. Their Hive Queen is psychologically unstable. Whether this is due to genetics, technology or any other force we cannot say but the result of this is that the entire Zyck'lirg race is unpredictable. Over the course of many years this has resulted in a certain degree of individuality of the worker class, the gathering class and the warrior class. Zycklirg are good at trading and fighting but without the normal unity of the Hive mind they are not as efficient as you'd expect. This is compensated by their large numbers and low labor costs. Or ---------------------------- The Zyck'lirg are angry, there's no doubt about that. Why ? Someone has stolen their Alpha Queen. While the next generation of princes has taken swift and decisive actions to find the persons who abducted her, the search has yet to produce any result. In a rare act among insectiod species the worker class and the warrior class are now coordinating their efforts to begin a massive sweep in search for their beloved Queen by rapid expansion of their fleet and resource gathering abilities Even though this race has never posed any major threat to the security of the galaxy their sheer numbers and efficient way of working will surely overwhelm anyone who harbors the thieves The race abilities setup version 2 Goals : Promote teamwork Force players to choose a style Create diversity Balancing tool for ship list Possible coded modifiers : Research Production Building Personal race relations Global race relations Racial kill Local tax Maximum Alignment Xp loss upon death *All subdivided into positive and negative Possible non-coded modifiers : Starting Alignment Robbery Alignment gain Xp gain upon kill Drone/mine cost *All subdivided into positive and negative *In all that's 28 possible modifiers without counting values Default assignments per race :1 permanent positive bonus (PB) 1 permanent negative bonus (PN) 1 positive bonus that promotes teamwork (PT) 1 negative bonus that promotes teamwork (NT) 1 starting modifier (SM) Perceived race segregation : Zyck'lirg - A bug race that has so much population that building is fast and xp means very little. Their ships are meant for traveling long distances and they range from medium sized traders to large warship. Since most of their ships are biologic they do not show up on any long range scanners. Xollian - Evil Hunters that have trouble getting along with other races in various ways. Their main power is the cloaking technology and their efficient weapons factories. KEA - Major traders that are friendly with everyone but have trouble producing due to inefficiency. They are liked by all other races for their trading abilities and can continue trading even all the races are at war with each other Paragon - A tech loving race. They are masters of deception even going as far as masking their own ships. Due to their love for technology they keep large supplies of power ready so they can install the latest devices. Mawlor - Born warriors that are good at fighting but don't like to lose and consider building beneath them. They dislike sharing any of the glory of combat with others of their species so they rely on a few per ship compensated by immense amounts of robotic drones Now to assign abilities to each race without values Zyck'lirg : PB) X% less xp loss upon death PP) X% less xp gain upon kill PT) X% less cost to build NT) X% more cost to research SM) -X alignment Xollian : PB) X% more alignment gained upon evil kill PN) Maximum Alignment < 500 PT) X% less cost to produce weapons NT) X% more cost to research SM) -X global race relations KEA : PB) Unaffected by negative global race relations PN) X% less money from racial kill PT) X% less cost to purchase drones/mines NT) X% more cost to produce weapons SM) +X alignment Paragon : PB) X% less alignment gained upon evil kill PN) Maximum Alignment > 500 PT) X% less research cost NT) X% more cost to purchase drones/mines SM) +X personal race relations with all races Mawlor : PB) X% more xp gain upon kill PN) X% more xp loss upon death PT) X% less cost to produce weapons NT) X% more cost to build SM) -X personal race relations And finally to assign some values based purely on impressions since there's no formula for this yet. Zyck'lirg : PB) 3% less xp loss upon death PP) 2% less xp gain upon kill PT) 9% less cost to build NT) 12% more cost to research SM) -50 alignment Xollian : PB) 20% more alignment gained upon evil kill PN) Maximum Alignment is 450 PT) 14% less cost to produce weapons NT) 9% more cost to research SM) -X global race relations KEA : PB) Unaffected by negative global race relations PN) 5% less money from racial kill PT) 10% less cost to purchase drones/mines NT) 13% more cost to produce weapons SM) +50 alignment Paragon : PB) 15% less alignment gained upon evil kill PN) Maximum Alignment > 550 PT) 16% less research cost NT) 7% more cost to purchase drones/mines SM) +100 personal race relations with all races Mawlor : PB) 3% more xp gain upon kill PN) 2% more xp loss upon death PT) 8% less cost to produce weapons NT) 6% more cost to build SM) -50 personal race relations Now while some argue that this will affect the ship balance I fail to see how. Except for the permanent racial traits the rest is all focused on other aspects of the game. The only exception is the purchasing of drones so I gave that to those races that don't really need them to encourage planning and teamwork. The permanent changes are balanced in each race and even have a counterpart in another race save KEA so they only help to accentuate playing style and confirm the race descriptions (my race descriptions). As for the some the values . they're open for change based on in game feedback. I made most of them based on how much you use each in the game itself over a long period of time. Ok that's it for today, you have 12 hours to come up with comments |
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From: Angelo S. <ang...@oo...> - 2003-01-14 16:08:10
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Hi! I think we should have more than 5 races if we are able to set now "performance" attributes on all those parameters. Probably the old idea to have ships as "hulls" with "slots" and equippment fitted into those slots will be ready to implement after that race parameterization is finished? Regarding Hawklans comment: I don't think that the ships of a race should compensate for the races abilities. Just the oposite makes more sence, both should be designed together, so the ships do not vary to much and emphasize the races abilities. I mean: if a race has trade advantages it is likely they are traders and have better trade ships. Its not that logical that other races get better trade ships to compensate the trader races advantages. aos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Angelo Schneider OOAD/UML Ang...@oo... Putlitzstr. 24 Patterns/FrameWorks Fon: +49 721 9812465 76137 Karlsruhe C++/JAVA Fax: +49 721 9812467 |
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From: Farid K. <Far...@ro...> - 2003-01-14 03:26:55
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Hi all, I really like the idea of diversifying the races beyond just the ships. As I have mentioned to Bruticus, you just have to be very careful that you are not loading up on one race and killing another. Instead of selecting 4 separate items and assigning it to a race, consider all 20. We can play with an entire spectrum and really define it well. This way we aren't working on determining what positive thing a race can have or should have or what negative thing another race should have. The way Middy has implemented it is that he has made it possible to vary settings without hard coding it. I believe the first step would be to write a more complete description of each race. By writing it we can use the information to better define them using modifiers to values. Then you may find that you need to set more than 4 or 5 modifiers. Remember, we are looking to provide diversity to the races, so when setting modifiers, make it suitable for game play. Areas I suggest you do not play with are: xp gain/loss from death, and taxes. XP Gain and loss should be generic across the game. there are a lot of means to promote combat and secure a race from it, other than to play with xp gain or loss. Taxes, I think it is far easier to modify racial relations instead of tax rates. Remember, the ships as they stand have some trading settings build into them. If we want to make some races worse traders than they are by playing with race relations, we may want to compensate them with more holds or more efficient ships. Of course that depends on if you are messing with global or personal relations. Personal relations is not hard to overcome, global, makes the changes more permanent. Just as people gain experience and make money to buy ships to pod people and make more experience, we should make the changes reversible by hard work. Which means setting start points that define the race but makes it possible for the individual to overcome, with the help of their friends. So. anyone want to write a racial description? |
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