Hey my fellow devs,
like the subject of the thread already says, I would like to ask what are focus is gonna be at the beginning. With DotA2 and LoL being popular (and you guys junking LoL all day and not DotA2 [noobs confirmed]) I was thinking if we shouldn't release the first playable version with 4v4 maps. That might grow the player base and make people able to get a feel for the game first before playing 1v1 competitive games.
Also it would stress test the game and at what point the engine might bug or lower spec computers are encountering FPS drops.
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I'd like to have a map allowing large team games, but one that would also be playable by 2 duelers. I know the map would be huge, so maybe we should just start with a duel map or downscale a team map to be used in 1v1 testing. you know we're going to end up testing multiplayer with two people at least at first.
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One of each? If possible it'd be nice for testing and/or a first release to have a 1v1 map for actual balanced play and then a 4v4 for fun, but not necessarily worked on to be balanced as the 1v1 map is. This way we can focus the balancing on the 1v1 map and observe the effect of the balance on the 4v4 map and see if it works out fine or if it needs serious tweaking. If we have to chose between, I'd say 1v1 to get the game right as quickly as possible.
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@Mood: Having a map that allows large team games and 1v1 matches is impossible to create. 8 players need more space for their bases than 2. As a map creator you have the choice to make the bases shared (4players vs 4player with them starting at the same location) or split (everybody having their own base in different locations on the map). If the bases are shared, you need a huge area for the base, which in 1v1 would be too big to defend alone. If the bases are split, the map will be too huge to control and the game will progress rather slowly, as the path to the opponents base will too far away, making him able to overpower you in the long run as your reinforcements cannot arrive in time. Also too many resources for 2players.
@Bilal: Ok, that makes sense. I was just wondering how you want the game to be played out, if it's supposed to be balanced for 1v1 or team games. Had some thoughts about it as the popular games are team based games at the moment. (DotA2, LoL, dunno about CS:GO)
What 4v4 map would you like to see? Shared bases or split bases? The gameplay should be completely different between both types of map, as they give and restrict options for the players differently.
Shared: Players rather able to tech because there can't be 4v1 rushes/timing attacks, mass unit battles, symmetric map design
Split: Rushes and timing attacks, more team coordination needed, asymmetrical map design possible (1 or more players on islands, positions with close spawns to another player from the other team, 2 separate 2v2 games on one map [blocked by water/high ground → flying units necessary])
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I still think you could make a map with a two sides, each with a team sharing the base, and just downscale it, reducing physical size and resource numbers to create a simple duel map.
If that's harder than just making two maps, then I'd start with a shared-base team map.
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I think for now we should just make quick test maps, so it should only take a minute to generate a small map for 1v1 testing, and a huge map for 4v4 testing. The bigger obstacle is figuring out the networking for those different game styles, which we can only do after we have more code development anyway. We shouldn't even worry about how the maps look or about making visually appealing or even interesting maps, especially since we will hopefully add geographically interactive features as we develop that will require us to change maps anyway.
Also ogre ftw amirite gais?
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I will take "Bizarre Adventure" for now and resize the height map to different map sizes. Then we decide which one would be the best to use, as big maps also mean a bigger texture map size (200MB for 16x16).
Also what do you mean by "geographically interactive features"? Rocks/Trees/Buildings that can be destroyed?
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Yeah destructible objects, varying levels of rough terrain that may inhibit certain kinds of machines from traveling over it (like the pits that only flying machines can cross, but we can add stuff like rocky passes that wheeled machines can't cross, that sort of thing), maybe dynamic maps that introduce extra challenges (read: dumb gimmicks that make for great showpieces), etc...
A lot of stuff might force us to go back and review all of the maps we will have made. Of course it can still help to design maps ahead of time, even if they have to be reworked.
Last edit: Amin 2013-09-22
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I agree, test maps should be done first.
Maps should be made with a specific number of players in mind, however if we can make it flexible, we'd have some awesome maps.
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Hey my fellow devs,
like the subject of the thread already says, I would like to ask what are focus is gonna be at the beginning. With DotA2 and LoL being popular (and you guys junking LoL all day and not DotA2 [noobs confirmed]) I was thinking if we shouldn't release the first playable version with 4v4 maps. That might grow the player base and make people able to get a feel for the game first before playing 1v1 competitive games.
Also it would stress test the game and at what point the engine might bug or lower spec computers are encountering FPS drops.
I'd like to have a map allowing large team games, but one that would also be playable by 2 duelers. I know the map would be huge, so maybe we should just start with a duel map or downscale a team map to be used in 1v1 testing. you know we're going to end up testing multiplayer with two people at least at first.
One of each? If possible it'd be nice for testing and/or a first release to have a 1v1 map for actual balanced play and then a 4v4 for fun, but not necessarily worked on to be balanced as the 1v1 map is. This way we can focus the balancing on the 1v1 map and observe the effect of the balance on the 4v4 map and see if it works out fine or if it needs serious tweaking. If we have to chose between, I'd say 1v1 to get the game right as quickly as possible.
@Mood: Having a map that allows large team games and 1v1 matches is impossible to create. 8 players need more space for their bases than 2. As a map creator you have the choice to make the bases shared (4players vs 4player with them starting at the same location) or split (everybody having their own base in different locations on the map). If the bases are shared, you need a huge area for the base, which in 1v1 would be too big to defend alone. If the bases are split, the map will be too huge to control and the game will progress rather slowly, as the path to the opponents base will too far away, making him able to overpower you in the long run as your reinforcements cannot arrive in time. Also too many resources for 2players.
@Bilal: Ok, that makes sense. I was just wondering how you want the game to be played out, if it's supposed to be balanced for 1v1 or team games. Had some thoughts about it as the popular games are team based games at the moment. (DotA2, LoL, dunno about CS:GO)
What 4v4 map would you like to see? Shared bases or split bases? The gameplay should be completely different between both types of map, as they give and restrict options for the players differently.
Shared: Players rather able to tech because there can't be 4v1 rushes/timing attacks, mass unit battles, symmetric map design
Split: Rushes and timing attacks, more team coordination needed, asymmetrical map design possible (1 or more players on islands, positions with close spawns to another player from the other team, 2 separate 2v2 games on one map [blocked by water/high ground → flying units necessary])
I still think you could make a map with a two sides, each with a team sharing the base, and just downscale it, reducing physical size and resource numbers to create a simple duel map.
If that's harder than just making two maps, then I'd start with a shared-base team map.
I think for now we should just make quick test maps, so it should only take a minute to generate a small map for 1v1 testing, and a huge map for 4v4 testing. The bigger obstacle is figuring out the networking for those different game styles, which we can only do after we have more code development anyway. We shouldn't even worry about how the maps look or about making visually appealing or even interesting maps, especially since we will hopefully add geographically interactive features as we develop that will require us to change maps anyway.
Also ogre ftw amirite gais?
I will take "Bizarre Adventure" for now and resize the height map to different map sizes. Then we decide which one would be the best to use, as big maps also mean a bigger texture map size (200MB for 16x16).
Also what do you mean by "geographically interactive features"? Rocks/Trees/Buildings that can be destroyed?
Yeah destructible objects, varying levels of rough terrain that may inhibit certain kinds of machines from traveling over it (like the pits that only flying machines can cross, but we can add stuff like rocky passes that wheeled machines can't cross, that sort of thing), maybe dynamic maps that introduce extra challenges (read: dumb gimmicks that make for great showpieces), etc...
A lot of stuff might force us to go back and review all of the maps we will have made. Of course it can still help to design maps ahead of time, even if they have to be reworked.
Last edit: Amin 2013-09-22
I agree, test maps should be done first.
Maps should be made with a specific number of players in mind, however if we can make it flexible, we'd have some awesome maps.