This particular topic has been bantered around for a while now and at the meeting on Monday the 26th we had a guest from irc.neverwinterconnections.com. RedR, an IRCOp, and HoC Moderator come to do a question and answer session, and invite us to use their IRC server which is focused entirely on NWN.
In addition to the letter, which I am going to include below he answered two questions that I had, which were how are channel stealing and OPs stealing handled. His reply was that it hasn't become an issue, and is not tolerated due to them not being a 'general use' IRC server, instead focused on the NWN Community.
As the Outreach Coordinator, a move to a NWN focused IRC server would potentially allow us to assist the overall NWN Community as a whole. It could facilitate discussions and bring the OpenKnights project into a higher NWN traffic community.
Our original reason for moving to the server we currently hold our meetings at was due to the previous server being unable to handle the traffic that beseiged it. And while the current server is able to 'meet the need' of the increased bandwidth, and uptime it is extremely insular, and is not focused on our goal in any way other than being a 'rented meeting location' with good bandwidth.
As such, I am proposing accepting RedR's invitation, to allow the OpenKnights Consortium to move to an IRC Server that is focused on the NWN Community, where we are much more likely to get people dropping in to ask about our projects, and perhaps garner assistance on all fronts, Linux/Mac and Windows than on a server primarily dedicated to random chatting.
While random chance dropping in has not been 'unheard of' a move to a server focused on the game we are attempting to support will provide us with higher visibility in the overall Community, and potentially a wider overall support network.
As such, I would encourage us to discuss this issue, so that we can look at the pros and cons of moving the current IRC gathering place. Ras has already moved for a vote on the subject at the the General Meeting on Thursday the 5th of February. (Held at our usual 'Bat-Time and Channel')
Thank you for your time, the forwarded letter is included below.
-B'yril
------- Original Message --------
Subject: Neverwinter Connections IRC
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:48:34 -0600
From: RedR
To: The OpenKnights Consortium
Hail,
Just wanted to pass on some info about our IRC and some good pluses to have a channel on our server.
First and in many cases most important we have very good supporting bandwidth. We have two separate IRC servers that are each connected to their own T3. Now granted that is not dedicated to just Neverwinter Connections.
But there is ample bandwidth for any possible need we might have on the web or IRC. We've hosted many community House of Commons chat events, as well had the NWCon event that included a chat with the BioWare team. Oh, and due to the primary interest being Neverwinter Nights related, we get more focused traffic and almost zero unwanted traffic.
Also, as you may know Neverwinter Connections has been around for quite awhile now, we continue to grow on the web, scheduled games and the IRC sides. I have found really good ppl who hang out on the IRC that always go outta their way to help folks out. The NWN scheduled games themselves are top notch that include DM'd and non-DM'd games.
If you have not noticed we have gained the respect of quite a few groups dedicated to NWN as well. City of Doors Initive (CODI), DragonLance Adventures (DLA), D20 modern mod, Fleet Street Gaming, Spellmans Project just to name a few. Because of this, the groups enjoy sharing info on their efforts, and a great place for NWN related chat and topics.
We've got great staff! Steck, who admins our IRC is usually around to help with this or that. Myself who can also help with almost anything IRC related am usually around less Im sleeping (heh). In addition to that, we have a number of IRC services running that help you establish your channel and the folks who will be members. We would be glad to help you in using them and setting things up if needed.
This is just a few of the things that come to mind, let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
RedR
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
As I said at the meeting, this sounds like a good idea to me. I just looked at their channel list and it's nice and small and berschaubar. I would certainly try to hang out there more for chats and online support than I do on our current channel.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
My take on it is that it is definitely a good idea to have a channel on the neverwinterconnections server. As stated above, it is more focused on NWN which would help in terms of traffic being comprised of people who are truly interested in NWN and, hopefully, OpenKnights.
That being said, I'm not entirely convinced we should completely close up the #OpenKnights channel on Freenode any time soon. As long as it is understood that the NWC server is where the meetings and development discussion will be taking place, I don't see any problem with having another entry point into OK elsewhere.
There are 5-6 of us who have spent a lot of active time on the Freenode server in channel helping people with install and other troubleshooting issues as well as giving recommendations. A lot of people know to look for us there, and until we see things die out completely, I think the channel needs to be kept open. On a more selfish note, given the technical nature of the Freenode servers, it's a lot easier to justify being connected at work. :-)
I am not completely without concerns about the NWC server however. I'd like to get a better feel for how much traffic there will be during primetime hours to the servers. Focused on NWN it may be, but if it's just a trickle, it's not going to help all that much.
My other concern is with regards to who is actively going to man the room in the NWC server? On Freenode, if there's no meeting happening, I can only name 5-6 people I see with any regularity. Will the devs be spending more time actively in channel if we go to NWC? No point in opening a channel if anyone who goes there during non-meeting times is met with stony silence from all the afk people.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I would definitely man the new channel more than the old one. I often feel out of place on the current one, exactly because there are up to 10 people logged in who I don't know and who are not there to talk about anything openknights related. I'm perfectly happy keeping the old on up as a help channel.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Anonymous
-
2004-02-03
I decided to do some poking around on this proposed server and here's what I came up with:
Neverwinter Connections
Connected Users: 120
Largest Channel Size: 18
Freenode:
Connected Users: 28655
Largest Channel Size: 859
Ok, I guess we can look beyond that if we're moving to a network that will help the growth of OK right? Wrong. The only times anyone ever sees an OK developer is during meetings (and the odds of them all showing up to meetings isn't that high judging by past meetings). Even more important is the fact that most people have never even heard of that network (I have never once seen it mentioned in IRC or the Bioware forums). So basically it's being proposed to move a channel OK isn't really using much personally for not much of a benefit?
Beyond that, I agree with most of what PhantomNJ said since we were discussing this earlier.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Not being much of an IRC person, I'd have to say that it's all one to me where we meet. I'm happy enough with the idea that we move to nwc, maybe it'll bring us some more focussed NWN-related traffic, and give us a slightly higher perceived presence in the NWN community as a whole, which can't be bad.
I'd also agree with PhantomNJ that we shouldn't actually close down the Freenode channel, but NWC could well be somewhere good to set up our OK flag.
Yeh I know, I sound really indecisive. I guess that since this is the only contact I have with IRC whatsoever, it doesn't make a great deal of difference to me. Ultimately, why not make the move? So long as we don't shut down the Freenode channel, we won't have lost anything...
-Q
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
While NeverwinterConnections may only have 120 people at that particular time, with 18 users max per channel. Each one of those individuals is interested in NWN.
How many people have we ended up with just 'dropping' in on our current server? While there may have been some people that dropped in, and while there may be a large number of developers on the current server (and a huge overall population) how many of them are specifically looking for NWN? How many of them are interested in NWN?
I do know that the current channel, while there may be a large number of people that are there, all too often is a room full of zombies.
A potentially smaller server while not necessarily getting 800 users to a channel, means that we have more direct support of the IRC OPs and Admin.
We also change our status from little fish in a HUGE pond that doesn't care whether or not we're even there to a (potentially same size fish) in a much smaller pond that is willing to work with us and wants to have us there as part of their ever growing NWN Community.
NeverWinter Connections also has a Java client available to allow people to connect to their servers, that end users can use on their machine as well.
I will also admit that the Freenode IRC server isn't as friendly to first time users. And a smaller server can help people get past the absolutely enormous listing of channels that one will find on a server that runs at about 28000 users. (Which those who don't IRC usually might find rather intimidating.)
This is not to say that we should close down the Freenode server, if there are users who can provide support there, and are willing to do so then I am all for keeping it. However, having a point of presence on the NeverWinterConnections server may provide more contact with people who are focused on the NWN Community than staying solely at Freenode, and would allow us to provide more support to other development opportunities in the NWN community as well.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Anonymous
-
2004-02-04
<<How many people have we ended up with just 'dropping' in on our current server? While there may have been some people that dropped in, and while there may be a large number of developers on the current server (and a huge overall population) how many of them are specifically looking for NWN? How many of them are interested in NWN?"
[/quote] >>
You honestly think people didn't come because it wasn't a completely NWN specific network?
<< I do know that the current channel, while there may be a large number of people that are there, all too often is a room full of zombies. >>
Considering you don't join for more than perhaps an hour here and there (and only for meetings) I'd have to say your viewpoint is skewed. The channel is often fairly active during the day, aside from that we have several European regulars who don't fit with your time zone.
<< A potentially smaller server while not necessarily getting 800 users to a channel, means that we have more direct support of the IRC OPs and Admin. >>
Aside from feeling warm and fuzzy, why is it necessary to have "support" of the IRCOP? Unless someone is screwing with your channel I don't see the point. It's not like him advertising for you on a tiny server (with people who don't necessarily like you, #dla for instance) will help.
<< I will also admit that the Freenode IRC server isn't as friendly to first time users. And a smaller server can help people get past the absolutely enormous listing of channels that one will find on a server that runs at about 28000 users. >>
If the point is for them to join #openknights then it doesn't matter how big the server is, the channel doesn't become any more difficult to find.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Basicly look at it this way.. Wherever you want people to recognize OpenKnights as the official locaion you must maintain a presence. If there are no people representing OK on the channel then it will not succeed. This matters IRC network not. What does happen on these irc networks that are "just for *" in this case neverwinterconnections for nwn people just hear it and go there. Don't take without thought that a lot of the people aren't interested in a specific NWN topic, they may just be there because someone said to go there. If you want to maintain a channel userbase you are going to have to show people its a channel that they will want to go for getting things dome in the OK project. This is my 2 cents. As far as the current channel goes we should leave it. I would request if the OK group does move irc networks then give access to one of the regulars so the channel can be maintained.
Tenkawa
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Chris, I don't know why you feel so strongly about this. The freenode channel serves a purpose and we're not planning to dismantle it. However, that purpose has nothing to do with the openknights except that we happen to have our meetings there once in a while, making everyone else shut up. It was taken over as a linux client help channel when the linux client first came out and has stayed that way. That's fine.
I, as an active developer, would appreciate a dedicated openknights channel for developers and users of our products that I would feel comfortable logging into at any time, that is on-topic for the server it's on, and that might pop up in other NWN tool developer's IRC clients and might cause them to drop by (considering you can easily scan the small channel list there). The current freenode channel does not serve any of these purposes and I am regularly put off by a huge number of silent logins that are obviously not there to talk about openknights related issues. I'm sure they are there for other purposes, but that's not what I'm looking for.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
The OK channel on Freenode wasn't taken over as a linux client help channel. It just seems that way because the regulars who are in channel frequently, other than for the meetings, just happen to be Linux users. We've never shunned anyone for running any other OS, but at the same time, I can count on one hand and have fingers left over regarding how often we've seen people who were running other operating systems.
We have had people drop in who are interested in OK from time to time. We point them to the site, to sourceforge, and to the thread for information. I would surmise that at least a few of those are the people who've dropped into the Mac forum thread on occasion.
IMO, and maybe it's mine alone, I think the first thing that OK needs to do to raise the visibility is start a guild. Just about every project has one. I think it would go a long way in separating OK from the perception of being a Mac thing (due to location of the current thread) or a Linux thing (due to the location of the current channel). Have the meetings on whatever server you wish, but IRC still isn't the first place people go to look for info, the Bioware site is.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Just so we're absolutely clear about this, I'm not bringing up all this just to be difficult. Not being a programmer, all I can do to help OK is offer suggestions, test out the utilities as they come out, and try to help keep up OK's public profile. If you think you're better off holding meetings on the NWC server, by all means, go right ahead. I'm just not convinced that it's going to have the impact people seem to think it's going to have by itself.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
<You honestly think people didn't come because it wasn't a completely NWN specific network?>
No, I feel that going to a NWN Specific network might make it easier for the average user of software created by the OpenKnights Consortium to get support. I feel that moving to where there are people who use NWN that we are more likely to get 'cross pollination' from both other groups, and from individuals who may not know about what we are doing, and may be more inclined to lend assistance given that they have an interest in NWN. We would also be better able to provide support to other development projects who have the same goals as the OpenKnights Consortium.
<Considering you don't join for more than perhaps an hour here and there (and only for meetings) I'd have to say your viewpoint is skewed. The channel is often fairly active during the day, aside from that we have several European regulars who don't fit with your time zone.>
There are also European regulars on the NeverWinter Connections. While I may not be on here when there is substantial discussion, I have been here during the middle of the day and can't say that I've seen the discussion. Mind you, I might have just been missing it. YMMV.
<Aside from feeling warm and fuzzy, why is it necessary to have "support" of the IRCOP? Unless someone is screwing with your channel I don't see the point. It's not like him advertising for you on a tiny server (with people who don't necessarily like you, #dla for instance) will help.>
Because when one has the support of the Admin it's much easier to get support, or a kline if needed on a smaller server along with attention and service from the OPS than on a larger server. Being part of a community that is focused on NWN as a game, as opposed to merely another channel on a server with many various interests. While there are groups that may not see eye to eye with us on some issues. That will be the case with any groups who have passion about their work. Being able to work with others who may not feel that your path is the one they wish is part of any OpenSource effort. Which is, for example, why there are so many distributions of Linux. By having a point of presence on an IRC server that is dedicated to NWN, we will be potentially better able to maximize our efforts in making NWN a better game, with a solid community support. (By increasing the overall community size we are more likely get feedback to our own projects.)
As for providing any support we are able to those who have provided linux and otherwise support on the Freenode server, I feel that is more than appropriate. I don't know who set up the freenode server originally, and as I have never had contact with any of the admin there I am unsure of whom we would need to speak with to get that issue taken care of.
Please feel free to play devil's advocate with my counter-arguments. All constructive criticism, opinion and feedback is appreciated on this issue.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
<Just so we're absolutely clear about this, I'm not bringing up all this just to be difficult. Not being a programmer, all I can do to help OK is offer suggestions, test out the utilities as they come out, and try to help keep up OK's public profile. If you think you're better off holding meetings on the NWC server, by all means, go right ahead. I'm just not convinced that it's going to have the impact people seem to think it's going to have by itself.>
I don't feel that the move itself will have the impact. I feel that having meetings at a server that has a high profile, with other high profile NWN developers and guilds and roleplay will potentially place the OpenKnights Consortium more in the public eye. (It may not, there may be no change, there may be less support, I have no way of gauging what the final result will be, which is why I am looking for constructive discussion on the issue.) By having a point of presence on the NWN Connections server, and involving other groups with us, we increase our public presence.
As a prime example, CODI has been on the NeverWinter Connections IRC server for a while ... only recently did the DLA join the NWC IRC server, after joining the NWC IRC Server they had cross discussions, and found projects that they both had interest in.
Right now, DLA has substantial interest in torlack's tools. As do we, by providing a point of presence on the NWC IRC servers it gives us both common ground to work together towards improving the tools, and a point of discussion to work from. There are other groups as well, including CODI, the D20 Modern group and others who are on the NWC IRC Server.
While providing a point of presence on that server may not give us the 'massive returns we had hoped for' I for one desire to have the OpenKnights Consortium work with other NWN Developers, to get tools to the overall NWN Userbase.
As for there being a point of presence on the Freenode server for the OpenKnights, hey, I'm all for that as well. In many ways Freenode is very much ingrained in the OpenSource community, despite it not being focused on NWN. My thought is to provide a point of presence on the NWC IRC server so that we can increase our face-share in the NWN Community, and get more exposure. Which being a small fish in a huge ocean of channels that have little if nothing to do with NWN may not be able to provide us.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Have any of the Devs in OK spoken to anyone at CODI or DLA regarding working together in any way shape or form? So far, the only definitive views I've seen from either group are A) they think sourceforge and/or cvs is too difficult and B) they don't seem to get what OK is about.
Have they expressed any interest in sharing the source code of the tools they write so they can be ported across platforms?
Do they even see the point in doing so? Judging by that one guy from DLA who posted, I'm not entirely sure.
If they're not interested in cross-platform tools, or at least letting someone in OK port their made-for-Windows tools, exactly what are we hoping to gain here?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Regarding what the Freenode server brings to the table, it has more to do with the support issue than anything else. I don't need to tell you how many possible distro/hardware combinations are out there. Having the ability to refer someone to a distro specific channel for an error we haven't seen before is very helpful when we're not familiar with that specific distribution.
It also gives us the ability to talk to people in the channels of our favorite distro(s) on occasion about the game. I've referred more than a few to Tenkawa's server. I've referred people who've shown in an interest to OK as well, though I have no idea if it went any further than the conversation.
I don't see the massive number of channels and users as a hindrance. Heck, when I log on, first thing I do is /join #OpenKnights. I'm pretty sure most people who know how to use IRC do the same.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Anonymous
-
2004-02-04
< Other than a point of familiarity, what does the Freenode server provide that we would be unable to provide at the NWC IRC Server? >
The majority if the people who join #openknights tend to be NWN linux users at this point. In most cases these people are also in other freenode channels at the same time, for instance I'm usually active in #debian,#debianppc and #osuoss as well. There are people who would not considering joining a channel on a seperate network out of the hassle to connect to another server. Since the majority are linux users as I noted above it sounds like the main people that will follow you to NWC will be the Mac users (I guess Windows counts as well).
Seems like if the "move" happens then the channel will be split along OS lines. Though whether that will have much of an effect is debateable, most of us are in the channel days (if not weeks) without seeing an OK dev.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I am probably coming late to this discussion, and not being a member of the team but only a bystander, but I have spent a bit of time talking with the folks at Neverwinter Connections (trying to set up a conference for us during the NWCon), and they had not heard of us before at the time. After a bit of talking, they were very interested and offered us a conference time without much of a second thought, which made me feel like they had a desire to support us out of good-heartedness.
They may stand to gain as much as we do by moving the channel to their server. I don't see that as a bad thing. Neverwinter Connection is a wonderful community of NWN players. I would like to see us team up with them at any opportunity that is feasible. By the way, there is another NWCon coming up in a couple of months, and if we get in contact with them soon enough, we can set up a conference and have it published on their schedule and marketed on their site and by BioWare. This could bring in a lot of rubberneckers, or it could add some legitimacy to our projects. Probably both. From Byril's standpoint, teaming up with Neverwinter Connections is a huge deal. I would like to see us support him as much as we can.
At the same time, I think I hear the other side, that the current IRC server is where many of our developers are hanging out anyway, and are doing other work there. That is certainly a valid reason to keep our meetings there. I only wish there were a way of doing both, or somehow getting the best of both scenarios.
Perhaps as an alternative, we can keep the more developer-oriented meetings on the freenode server, while moving the more open house meetings to the neverwinterconnections server. Would that be doable, or would that add more confusion? Well, it would add some confusion, but would it be enough confusion to really bother anyone. If we presented our open house meetings as being in conjunction with Neverwinter Connections, I can see that as opening many doors for us. It might not happen right away, but instead slowly. Plus, we can lure Windows users onto better platforms for playing NWN. :)
I really would like to see us do as much as we can with Neverwinter Connections. I think that there is a partnership there that could be very productive, just as partnering with CODI and D20 Modern and DLA folks would be very productive. (There is also LETO folks, who I think are independent of all of the above, but I've talked with one and while their code is strictly Windows-based, the person I talked to didn't slam the door in my face when I mentioned Open Knights. There could be some possibilities there as well.)
For now, though, I guess we need to cater to our primary developers and whatever their needs are. If moving to NWConnections is a deal-breaker, then that's a bad move. But I think we can come up with a half-and-half solution that might help everyone out. Outreach is as important as coding, even though the coders get all the credit. (Nothing wrong with that.)
I'm starting to repeat myself, aren't I?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
To reiterate my take on things, as expressed in the meeting:
I don't think that what particular IRC network we have a channel on will affect our "visibility". This opinion is colored, perhaps, by the fact that my primary use of the channel is as a meeting place for the general meetings and splinters, rather than as a 24/7 support room and coffee klatch.
Be that as it may, I don't have any strong tie to freenode or preference for nwc.
On the other hand, I have heard two strong requests for the move to nwc: Byril and sumpfork. Sumpfork in particular has stated that he would be more likely to use the channel for support if we did move it. (I'm not sure why he is so off put by the zombies in our current home, but that's his feeling.)
On the other side, (besides my general, "why bother") there seems to be a desire to keep the old channel open (I'm not even sure how we would go about "closing" it anyway), and that it has particular value for supporting general NWN issues on linux (in particular as some distros have their own channels on freenode).
I think if it came to a formal vote of the admins, we would probably move, but I don't think we need to take it that far. Instead, what I would suggest at this point that Byril go ahead and create a new channel on the NWC and that we update the calendar, and Tiki, (and post to the Bioboards) our intention to use same for meetings/splinters etc.. (As an example of the "etc." if sumpfork wants to use it for neveredit support (maybe with "office hours") he can just go ahead and post that on the tiki and neveredit threads).
We can keep the original channel going, and if its particular users wish to schedule any activity on it, such could be added to the OK calendar. If there appears to be any technical downside to using the NWC server (it was, after all, the performance of our original channel that brought us to freenode in the first place, not its Open Source credentials per se) then we can always move back.
I don't see the need for a vote on this per se, as I think that the thoughts expressed so far would generally go along with the above policies, (think of it as being handled under the unanimous consent rule). However, if someone disagrees, please say so. We can hold an Admin vote if that is necessary.
(I apologize to Byril that we didn't wrap this up formally at the last meeting as I had half promised. Just count it as another casualty of my current chaotic life.)
Ras the contrite.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
It is with a level of bemusement that I notice this discussion is still taking place here and not on the Guild forums on Bioware's site.
Let me be perfectly frank here, if you're looking to raise the profile of OpenKnights, you've got to have a strong presence on the Bioware site before you even worry about IRC server.
I've posted the release of neveredit 0.4 on the Guild news section. I've worked to ask leading questions in the "For Developers" section in response to sumpfork's announcement. I've also posted messages in the OpenKnight's Guild forums in order to try to get the appearance of activity. Unfortunately, to date, I'm still the only one who has posted on that forum.
If you're wondering why no one knows we exist, it has less to do with us not being on an IRC server that never has more than 150 people on it at any given time and more to do with the fact that we've got 1200+ messages posted in a place that most people don't even know exists. I can only imagine what would have happened if all of these messages were actually in a forum on the Bioware site where 1,600,000 people have an account.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Hey... there's a reason, which I think you can guess from my comments at the last meeting, why I posted this here and not on the Guild Forums. But I'll move that to another thread as it makes more sense there.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
This particular topic has been bantered around for a while now and at the meeting on Monday the 26th we had a guest from irc.neverwinterconnections.com. RedR, an IRCOp, and HoC Moderator come to do a question and answer session, and invite us to use their IRC server which is focused entirely on NWN.
In addition to the letter, which I am going to include below he answered two questions that I had, which were how are channel stealing and OPs stealing handled. His reply was that it hasn't become an issue, and is not tolerated due to them not being a 'general use' IRC server, instead focused on the NWN Community.
As the Outreach Coordinator, a move to a NWN focused IRC server would potentially allow us to assist the overall NWN Community as a whole. It could facilitate discussions and bring the OpenKnights project into a higher NWN traffic community.
Our original reason for moving to the server we currently hold our meetings at was due to the previous server being unable to handle the traffic that beseiged it. And while the current server is able to 'meet the need' of the increased bandwidth, and uptime it is extremely insular, and is not focused on our goal in any way other than being a 'rented meeting location' with good bandwidth.
As such, I am proposing accepting RedR's invitation, to allow the OpenKnights Consortium to move to an IRC Server that is focused on the NWN Community, where we are much more likely to get people dropping in to ask about our projects, and perhaps garner assistance on all fronts, Linux/Mac and Windows than on a server primarily dedicated to random chatting.
While random chance dropping in has not been 'unheard of' a move to a server focused on the game we are attempting to support will provide us with higher visibility in the overall Community, and potentially a wider overall support network.
As such, I would encourage us to discuss this issue, so that we can look at the pros and cons of moving the current IRC gathering place. Ras has already moved for a vote on the subject at the the General Meeting on Thursday the 5th of February. (Held at our usual 'Bat-Time and Channel')
Thank you for your time, the forwarded letter is included below.
-B'yril
------- Original Message --------
Subject: Neverwinter Connections IRC
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:48:34 -0600
From: RedR
To: The OpenKnights Consortium
Hail,
Just wanted to pass on some info about our IRC and some good pluses to have a channel on our server.
First and in many cases most important we have very good supporting bandwidth. We have two separate IRC servers that are each connected to their own T3. Now granted that is not dedicated to just Neverwinter Connections.
But there is ample bandwidth for any possible need we might have on the web or IRC. We've hosted many community House of Commons chat events, as well had the NWCon event that included a chat with the BioWare team. Oh, and due to the primary interest being Neverwinter Nights related, we get more focused traffic and almost zero unwanted traffic.
Also, as you may know Neverwinter Connections has been around for quite awhile now, we continue to grow on the web, scheduled games and the IRC sides. I have found really good ppl who hang out on the IRC that always go outta their way to help folks out. The NWN scheduled games themselves are top notch that include DM'd and non-DM'd games.
If you have not noticed we have gained the respect of quite a few groups dedicated to NWN as well. City of Doors Initive (CODI), DragonLance Adventures (DLA), D20 modern mod, Fleet Street Gaming, Spellmans Project just to name a few. Because of this, the groups enjoy sharing info on their efforts, and a great place for NWN related chat and topics.
We've got great staff! Steck, who admins our IRC is usually around to help with this or that. Myself who can also help with almost anything IRC related am usually around less Im sleeping (heh). In addition to that, we have a number of IRC services running that help you establish your channel and the folks who will be members. We would be glad to help you in using them and setting things up if needed.
This is just a few of the things that come to mind, let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks,
RedR
As I said at the meeting, this sounds like a good idea to me. I just looked at their channel list and it's nice and small and berschaubar. I would certainly try to hang out there more for chats and online support than I do on our current channel.
My take on it is that it is definitely a good idea to have a channel on the neverwinterconnections server. As stated above, it is more focused on NWN which would help in terms of traffic being comprised of people who are truly interested in NWN and, hopefully, OpenKnights.
That being said, I'm not entirely convinced we should completely close up the #OpenKnights channel on Freenode any time soon. As long as it is understood that the NWC server is where the meetings and development discussion will be taking place, I don't see any problem with having another entry point into OK elsewhere.
There are 5-6 of us who have spent a lot of active time on the Freenode server in channel helping people with install and other troubleshooting issues as well as giving recommendations. A lot of people know to look for us there, and until we see things die out completely, I think the channel needs to be kept open. On a more selfish note, given the technical nature of the Freenode servers, it's a lot easier to justify being connected at work. :-)
I am not completely without concerns about the NWC server however. I'd like to get a better feel for how much traffic there will be during primetime hours to the servers. Focused on NWN it may be, but if it's just a trickle, it's not going to help all that much.
My other concern is with regards to who is actively going to man the room in the NWC server? On Freenode, if there's no meeting happening, I can only name 5-6 people I see with any regularity. Will the devs be spending more time actively in channel if we go to NWC? No point in opening a channel if anyone who goes there during non-meeting times is met with stony silence from all the afk people.
I would definitely man the new channel more than the old one. I often feel out of place on the current one, exactly because there are up to 10 people logged in who I don't know and who are not there to talk about anything openknights related. I'm perfectly happy keeping the old on up as a help channel.
I decided to do some poking around on this proposed server and here's what I came up with:
Neverwinter Connections
Connected Users: 120
Largest Channel Size: 18
Freenode:
Connected Users: 28655
Largest Channel Size: 859
Ok, I guess we can look beyond that if we're moving to a network that will help the growth of OK right? Wrong. The only times anyone ever sees an OK developer is during meetings (and the odds of them all showing up to meetings isn't that high judging by past meetings). Even more important is the fact that most people have never even heard of that network (I have never once seen it mentioned in IRC or the Bioware forums). So basically it's being proposed to move a channel OK isn't really using much personally for not much of a benefit?
Beyond that, I agree with most of what PhantomNJ said since we were discussing this earlier.
Not being much of an IRC person, I'd have to say that it's all one to me where we meet. I'm happy enough with the idea that we move to nwc, maybe it'll bring us some more focussed NWN-related traffic, and give us a slightly higher perceived presence in the NWN community as a whole, which can't be bad.
I'd also agree with PhantomNJ that we shouldn't actually close down the Freenode channel, but NWC could well be somewhere good to set up our OK flag.
Yeh I know, I sound really indecisive. I guess that since this is the only contact I have with IRC whatsoever, it doesn't make a great deal of difference to me. Ultimately, why not make the move? So long as we don't shut down the Freenode channel, we won't have lost anything...
-Q
While NeverwinterConnections may only have 120 people at that particular time, with 18 users max per channel. Each one of those individuals is interested in NWN.
How many people have we ended up with just 'dropping' in on our current server? While there may have been some people that dropped in, and while there may be a large number of developers on the current server (and a huge overall population) how many of them are specifically looking for NWN? How many of them are interested in NWN?
I do know that the current channel, while there may be a large number of people that are there, all too often is a room full of zombies.
A potentially smaller server while not necessarily getting 800 users to a channel, means that we have more direct support of the IRC OPs and Admin.
We also change our status from little fish in a HUGE pond that doesn't care whether or not we're even there to a (potentially same size fish) in a much smaller pond that is willing to work with us and wants to have us there as part of their ever growing NWN Community.
NeverWinter Connections also has a Java client available to allow people to connect to their servers, that end users can use on their machine as well.
I will also admit that the Freenode IRC server isn't as friendly to first time users. And a smaller server can help people get past the absolutely enormous listing of channels that one will find on a server that runs at about 28000 users. (Which those who don't IRC usually might find rather intimidating.)
This is not to say that we should close down the Freenode server, if there are users who can provide support there, and are willing to do so then I am all for keeping it. However, having a point of presence on the NeverWinterConnections server may provide more contact with people who are focused on the NWN Community than staying solely at Freenode, and would allow us to provide more support to other development opportunities in the NWN community as well.
<<How many people have we ended up with just 'dropping' in on our current server? While there may have been some people that dropped in, and while there may be a large number of developers on the current server (and a huge overall population) how many of them are specifically looking for NWN? How many of them are interested in NWN?"
[/quote] >>
You honestly think people didn't come because it wasn't a completely NWN specific network?
<< I do know that the current channel, while there may be a large number of people that are there, all too often is a room full of zombies. >>
Considering you don't join for more than perhaps an hour here and there (and only for meetings) I'd have to say your viewpoint is skewed. The channel is often fairly active during the day, aside from that we have several European regulars who don't fit with your time zone.
<< A potentially smaller server while not necessarily getting 800 users to a channel, means that we have more direct support of the IRC OPs and Admin. >>
Aside from feeling warm and fuzzy, why is it necessary to have "support" of the IRCOP? Unless someone is screwing with your channel I don't see the point. It's not like him advertising for you on a tiny server (with people who don't necessarily like you, #dla for instance) will help.
<< I will also admit that the Freenode IRC server isn't as friendly to first time users. And a smaller server can help people get past the absolutely enormous listing of channels that one will find on a server that runs at about 28000 users. >>
If the point is for them to join #openknights then it doesn't matter how big the server is, the channel doesn't become any more difficult to find.
Basicly look at it this way.. Wherever you want people to recognize OpenKnights as the official locaion you must maintain a presence. If there are no people representing OK on the channel then it will not succeed. This matters IRC network not. What does happen on these irc networks that are "just for *" in this case neverwinterconnections for nwn people just hear it and go there. Don't take without thought that a lot of the people aren't interested in a specific NWN topic, they may just be there because someone said to go there. If you want to maintain a channel userbase you are going to have to show people its a channel that they will want to go for getting things dome in the OK project. This is my 2 cents. As far as the current channel goes we should leave it. I would request if the OK group does move irc networks then give access to one of the regulars so the channel can be maintained.
Tenkawa
Chris, I don't know why you feel so strongly about this. The freenode channel serves a purpose and we're not planning to dismantle it. However, that purpose has nothing to do with the openknights except that we happen to have our meetings there once in a while, making everyone else shut up. It was taken over as a linux client help channel when the linux client first came out and has stayed that way. That's fine.
I, as an active developer, would appreciate a dedicated openknights channel for developers and users of our products that I would feel comfortable logging into at any time, that is on-topic for the server it's on, and that might pop up in other NWN tool developer's IRC clients and might cause them to drop by (considering you can easily scan the small channel list there). The current freenode channel does not serve any of these purposes and I am regularly put off by a huge number of silent logins that are obviously not there to talk about openknights related issues. I'm sure they are there for other purposes, but that's not what I'm looking for.
The OK channel on Freenode wasn't taken over as a linux client help channel. It just seems that way because the regulars who are in channel frequently, other than for the meetings, just happen to be Linux users. We've never shunned anyone for running any other OS, but at the same time, I can count on one hand and have fingers left over regarding how often we've seen people who were running other operating systems.
We have had people drop in who are interested in OK from time to time. We point them to the site, to sourceforge, and to the thread for information. I would surmise that at least a few of those are the people who've dropped into the Mac forum thread on occasion.
IMO, and maybe it's mine alone, I think the first thing that OK needs to do to raise the visibility is start a guild. Just about every project has one. I think it would go a long way in separating OK from the perception of being a Mac thing (due to location of the current thread) or a Linux thing (due to the location of the current channel). Have the meetings on whatever server you wish, but IRC still isn't the first place people go to look for info, the Bioware site is.
Just so we're absolutely clear about this, I'm not bringing up all this just to be difficult. Not being a programmer, all I can do to help OK is offer suggestions, test out the utilities as they come out, and try to help keep up OK's public profile. If you think you're better off holding meetings on the NWC server, by all means, go right ahead. I'm just not convinced that it's going to have the impact people seem to think it's going to have by itself.
<You honestly think people didn't come because it wasn't a completely NWN specific network?>
No, I feel that going to a NWN Specific network might make it easier for the average user of software created by the OpenKnights Consortium to get support. I feel that moving to where there are people who use NWN that we are more likely to get 'cross pollination' from both other groups, and from individuals who may not know about what we are doing, and may be more inclined to lend assistance given that they have an interest in NWN. We would also be better able to provide support to other development projects who have the same goals as the OpenKnights Consortium.
<Considering you don't join for more than perhaps an hour here and there (and only for meetings) I'd have to say your viewpoint is skewed. The channel is often fairly active during the day, aside from that we have several European regulars who don't fit with your time zone.>
There are also European regulars on the NeverWinter Connections. While I may not be on here when there is substantial discussion, I have been here during the middle of the day and can't say that I've seen the discussion. Mind you, I might have just been missing it. YMMV.
<Aside from feeling warm and fuzzy, why is it necessary to have "support" of the IRCOP? Unless someone is screwing with your channel I don't see the point. It's not like him advertising for you on a tiny server (with people who don't necessarily like you, #dla for instance) will help.>
Because when one has the support of the Admin it's much easier to get support, or a kline if needed on a smaller server along with attention and service from the OPS than on a larger server. Being part of a community that is focused on NWN as a game, as opposed to merely another channel on a server with many various interests. While there are groups that may not see eye to eye with us on some issues. That will be the case with any groups who have passion about their work. Being able to work with others who may not feel that your path is the one they wish is part of any OpenSource effort. Which is, for example, why there are so many distributions of Linux. By having a point of presence on an IRC server that is dedicated to NWN, we will be potentially better able to maximize our efforts in making NWN a better game, with a solid community support. (By increasing the overall community size we are more likely get feedback to our own projects.)
As for providing any support we are able to those who have provided linux and otherwise support on the Freenode server, I feel that is more than appropriate. I don't know who set up the freenode server originally, and as I have never had contact with any of the admin there I am unsure of whom we would need to speak with to get that issue taken care of.
Please feel free to play devil's advocate with my counter-arguments. All constructive criticism, opinion and feedback is appreciated on this issue.
<Just so we're absolutely clear about this, I'm not bringing up all this just to be difficult. Not being a programmer, all I can do to help OK is offer suggestions, test out the utilities as they come out, and try to help keep up OK's public profile. If you think you're better off holding meetings on the NWC server, by all means, go right ahead. I'm just not convinced that it's going to have the impact people seem to think it's going to have by itself.>
I don't feel that the move itself will have the impact. I feel that having meetings at a server that has a high profile, with other high profile NWN developers and guilds and roleplay will potentially place the OpenKnights Consortium more in the public eye. (It may not, there may be no change, there may be less support, I have no way of gauging what the final result will be, which is why I am looking for constructive discussion on the issue.) By having a point of presence on the NWN Connections server, and involving other groups with us, we increase our public presence.
As a prime example, CODI has been on the NeverWinter Connections IRC server for a while ... only recently did the DLA join the NWC IRC server, after joining the NWC IRC Server they had cross discussions, and found projects that they both had interest in.
Right now, DLA has substantial interest in torlack's tools. As do we, by providing a point of presence on the NWC IRC servers it gives us both common ground to work together towards improving the tools, and a point of discussion to work from. There are other groups as well, including CODI, the D20 Modern group and others who are on the NWC IRC Server.
While providing a point of presence on that server may not give us the 'massive returns we had hoped for' I for one desire to have the OpenKnights Consortium work with other NWN Developers, to get tools to the overall NWN Userbase.
As for there being a point of presence on the Freenode server for the OpenKnights, hey, I'm all for that as well. In many ways Freenode is very much ingrained in the OpenSource community, despite it not being focused on NWN. My thought is to provide a point of presence on the NWC IRC server so that we can increase our face-share in the NWN Community, and get more exposure. Which being a small fish in a huge ocean of channels that have little if nothing to do with NWN may not be able to provide us.
Ya know ... that OpenKnights Guild proposal does have merit.
Not to ask what may sound like 'strange' questions.
For those who currently frequent the OpenKnights channel on freenode, Why there, as oppose to relocating to the NWC Irc server?
Other than a point of familiarity, what does the Freenode server provide that we would be unable to provide at the NWC IRC Server?
Have any of the Devs in OK spoken to anyone at CODI or DLA regarding working together in any way shape or form? So far, the only definitive views I've seen from either group are A) they think sourceforge and/or cvs is too difficult and B) they don't seem to get what OK is about.
Have they expressed any interest in sharing the source code of the tools they write so they can be ported across platforms?
Do they even see the point in doing so? Judging by that one guy from DLA who posted, I'm not entirely sure.
If they're not interested in cross-platform tools, or at least letting someone in OK port their made-for-Windows tools, exactly what are we hoping to gain here?
Regarding what the Freenode server brings to the table, it has more to do with the support issue than anything else. I don't need to tell you how many possible distro/hardware combinations are out there. Having the ability to refer someone to a distro specific channel for an error we haven't seen before is very helpful when we're not familiar with that specific distribution.
It also gives us the ability to talk to people in the channels of our favorite distro(s) on occasion about the game. I've referred more than a few to Tenkawa's server. I've referred people who've shown in an interest to OK as well, though I have no idea if it went any further than the conversation.
I don't see the massive number of channels and users as a hindrance. Heck, when I log on, first thing I do is /join #OpenKnights. I'm pretty sure most people who know how to use IRC do the same.
< Other than a point of familiarity, what does the Freenode server provide that we would be unable to provide at the NWC IRC Server? >
The majority if the people who join #openknights tend to be NWN linux users at this point. In most cases these people are also in other freenode channels at the same time, for instance I'm usually active in #debian,#debianppc and #osuoss as well. There are people who would not considering joining a channel on a seperate network out of the hassle to connect to another server. Since the majority are linux users as I noted above it sounds like the main people that will follow you to NWC will be the Mac users (I guess Windows counts as well).
Seems like if the "move" happens then the channel will be split along OS lines. Though whether that will have much of an effect is debateable, most of us are in the channel days (if not weeks) without seeing an OK dev.
I am probably coming late to this discussion, and not being a member of the team but only a bystander, but I have spent a bit of time talking with the folks at Neverwinter Connections (trying to set up a conference for us during the NWCon), and they had not heard of us before at the time. After a bit of talking, they were very interested and offered us a conference time without much of a second thought, which made me feel like they had a desire to support us out of good-heartedness.
They may stand to gain as much as we do by moving the channel to their server. I don't see that as a bad thing. Neverwinter Connection is a wonderful community of NWN players. I would like to see us team up with them at any opportunity that is feasible. By the way, there is another NWCon coming up in a couple of months, and if we get in contact with them soon enough, we can set up a conference and have it published on their schedule and marketed on their site and by BioWare. This could bring in a lot of rubberneckers, or it could add some legitimacy to our projects. Probably both. From Byril's standpoint, teaming up with Neverwinter Connections is a huge deal. I would like to see us support him as much as we can.
At the same time, I think I hear the other side, that the current IRC server is where many of our developers are hanging out anyway, and are doing other work there. That is certainly a valid reason to keep our meetings there. I only wish there were a way of doing both, or somehow getting the best of both scenarios.
Perhaps as an alternative, we can keep the more developer-oriented meetings on the freenode server, while moving the more open house meetings to the neverwinterconnections server. Would that be doable, or would that add more confusion? Well, it would add some confusion, but would it be enough confusion to really bother anyone. If we presented our open house meetings as being in conjunction with Neverwinter Connections, I can see that as opening many doors for us. It might not happen right away, but instead slowly. Plus, we can lure Windows users onto better platforms for playing NWN. :)
I really would like to see us do as much as we can with Neverwinter Connections. I think that there is a partnership there that could be very productive, just as partnering with CODI and D20 Modern and DLA folks would be very productive. (There is also LETO folks, who I think are independent of all of the above, but I've talked with one and while their code is strictly Windows-based, the person I talked to didn't slam the door in my face when I mentioned Open Knights. There could be some possibilities there as well.)
For now, though, I guess we need to cater to our primary developers and whatever their needs are. If moving to NWConnections is a deal-breaker, then that's a bad move. But I think we can come up with a half-and-half solution that might help everyone out. Outreach is as important as coding, even though the coders get all the credit. (Nothing wrong with that.)
I'm starting to repeat myself, aren't I?
To reiterate my take on things, as expressed in the meeting:
I don't think that what particular IRC network we have a channel on will affect our "visibility". This opinion is colored, perhaps, by the fact that my primary use of the channel is as a meeting place for the general meetings and splinters, rather than as a 24/7 support room and coffee klatch.
Be that as it may, I don't have any strong tie to freenode or preference for nwc.
On the other hand, I have heard two strong requests for the move to nwc: Byril and sumpfork. Sumpfork in particular has stated that he would be more likely to use the channel for support if we did move it. (I'm not sure why he is so off put by the zombies in our current home, but that's his feeling.)
On the other side, (besides my general, "why bother") there seems to be a desire to keep the old channel open (I'm not even sure how we would go about "closing" it anyway), and that it has particular value for supporting general NWN issues on linux (in particular as some distros have their own channels on freenode).
I think if it came to a formal vote of the admins, we would probably move, but I don't think we need to take it that far. Instead, what I would suggest at this point that Byril go ahead and create a new channel on the NWC and that we update the calendar, and Tiki, (and post to the Bioboards) our intention to use same for meetings/splinters etc.. (As an example of the "etc." if sumpfork wants to use it for neveredit support (maybe with "office hours") he can just go ahead and post that on the tiki and neveredit threads).
We can keep the original channel going, and if its particular users wish to schedule any activity on it, such could be added to the OK calendar. If there appears to be any technical downside to using the NWC server (it was, after all, the performance of our original channel that brought us to freenode in the first place, not its Open Source credentials per se) then we can always move back.
I don't see the need for a vote on this per se, as I think that the thoughts expressed so far would generally go along with the above policies, (think of it as being handled under the unanimous consent rule). However, if someone disagrees, please say so. We can hold an Admin vote if that is necessary.
(I apologize to Byril that we didn't wrap this up formally at the last meeting as I had half promised. Just count it as another casualty of my current chaotic life.)
Ras the contrite.
It is with a level of bemusement that I notice this discussion is still taking place here and not on the Guild forums on Bioware's site.
Let me be perfectly frank here, if you're looking to raise the profile of OpenKnights, you've got to have a strong presence on the Bioware site before you even worry about IRC server.
I've posted the release of neveredit 0.4 on the Guild news section. I've worked to ask leading questions in the "For Developers" section in response to sumpfork's announcement. I've also posted messages in the OpenKnight's Guild forums in order to try to get the appearance of activity. Unfortunately, to date, I'm still the only one who has posted on that forum.
If you're wondering why no one knows we exist, it has less to do with us not being on an IRC server that never has more than 150 people on it at any given time and more to do with the fact that we've got 1200+ messages posted in a place that most people don't even know exists. I can only imagine what would have happened if all of these messages were actually in a forum on the Bioware site where 1,600,000 people have an account.
Hey... there's a reason, which I think you can guess from my comments at the last meeting, why I posted this here and not on the Guild Forums. But I'll move that to another thread as it makes more sense there.