openinteract-dev

[Openinteract-dev] Re: [Poop-group] [announce] The Object Persistathon! (2nd try)

[Darren D. <da...@Da...>]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Sam Vilain wrote:
> Simon Cozens is including a chapter on POOP in _Advanced Programming
> Perl, 2nd edition_, an O'Reilly book.
> As he is busy with a new direction in his life, I have agreed to
> co-ordinate gathering material and code for possible inclusion in the
> chapter from authors and users of POOP frameworks.
> The challenge is:
> Implement classes to drive this schema (minimally remodelling as you
> feel appropriate):
<snip>
> And produce a test script to do the following things:
<snip>
> And a couple of maintenance scripts:
<snip>

I will reply to this using 2-3 multiple separate messages that are more 
targeted.  All of *those* will go to poo...@li....

First of all, I would *definitely* be interested in implementing the 
things you mention using my bleeding-edge Rosetta/SQL::Routine framework.  
This sort of thing is just the kind of exposure they need, and will 
provide a good documentation opportunity to demonstrate how to do certain 
common tasks, both on an objective and a comparative basis.

Unfortunately, I have started having new bad sectors appearing on my hard 
disk, and will be having it replaced tomorrow under warranty.  This will 
take a few days, during which I probably won't have computer access 
necessary to do the work.  I will also need a minimum of a week after 
those few days to get my implementation ready.  Having 2-4 weeks is 
preferred.  But suffice to say that working on these modules is more or 
less my full time job at the moment, so I'm putting in long hours.

So, when do you / does Simon need these implementations by, either full or 
partial?  Eg, when are early drafts and final drafts needed?  Is the book 
on a rigorous publishing schedule?

Also, do the implementations need to be able to work as is for a 
long period of time, or is it okay that details may require small changes 
later due to module API changes?  While I'm mostly nailed down, there are 
still a few pending API changes to my modules.  They *are* pre-alpha.

I'll send separate replies about task list details and suggested 
task additions; they will all go to poo...@li....

Also, if anyone is interested in my modules, I accept offers of 
assistance.  (Aside from replies to some RFC emails over the last 2 years, 
I've been doing them entirely on my own.)  I also have no list specific to 
developing or using my modules yet, but may start one later when they 
start to get a user base or multiple interested developers.

Thank you. -- Darren Duncan

[Openinteract-dev] Re: [Poop-group] [announce] The Object Persistathon! (2nd try)

[Simon C. <si...@si...>]

Darren Duncan:
> First of all, I would *definitely* be interested in implementing the 
> things you mention using my bleeding-edge Rosetta/SQL::Routine framework.  

Ah. I didn't ask for that.

You see, there are about 30,000 new, cool and bleeding edge object persistence
/ object representation frameworks on CPAN, and I don't want the chapter to be
30,000 pages long. To avoid this, I had to make a selection, and the problem
with making selections is that it upsets people who wrote the things which
didn't get selected. I'm sorry about that. I tried to select a list of
frameworks which were either well known, widely used or well designed; you can
amuse yourself by guessing which category I filed each one into. The final
list was Alzabo, SPOPS, CDBI, Pixie, Class::Persist and Tangram, and I'm
afraid that's not negotiable. I have to make a selection somehow.

Implementing the stuff requested might be good for your framework anyway and
to check that it can really do all those things, but I'm afraid it won't get
it covered in the book. (although I will be naming some notable alternative
choice such as Rosetta in the last few paragraphs) Again, sorry about that,
but attempting to cover everything would be madness.

I've had to do this with templating toolkits too, and doubtless I've already
offended someone by my selection there as well.

-- 
It's a testament to the versatility of the human mind that we're so able 
to compensate for our own incompetence.
    - Darrell Furhiman

[Openinteract-dev] Re: [Poop-group] [announce] The Object Persistathon! (2nd try)

[Darren D. <da...@Da...>]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Simon Cozens wrote:
> > First of all, I would *definitely* be interested in implementing the 
> > things you mention using my bleeding-edge Rosetta/SQL::Routine framework.  
> 
> Ah. I didn't ask for that.
> You see, there are about 30,000 new, cool and bleeding edge object persistence
> / object representation frameworks on CPAN, and I don't want the chapter to be
> 30,000 pages long. To avoid this, I had to make a selection, and the problem
> with making selections is that it upsets people who wrote the things which
> didn't get selected. I'm sorry about that. I tried to select a list of
> frameworks which were either well known, widely used or well designed; you can
> amuse yourself by guessing which category I filed each one into. The final
> list was Alzabo, SPOPS, CDBI, Pixie, Class::Persist and Tangram, and I'm
> afraid that's not negotiable. I have to make a selection somehow.

Thanks for clearing that up now.

The original posting gave no indication that there was a "final list".  It 
simply said that all people who want to submit for a framework can do so.  
In fact, the closest thing to any list was giving a few examples and 
saying who was doing some and which needed help.  No indication that was 
it.  If I am wrong about this, then please say where the list was first 
announced, as I missed that context.

I appreciate you being as up front with this as early as you are.  Now I 
won't have to waste my time implementing all those specs and tests etc.

On the other hand, I will continue to give feedback and suggestions on the 
given schema and other things that the approved frameworks need to 
implement.

> Implementing the stuff requested might be good for your framework anyway and
> to check that it can really do all those things, but I'm afraid it won't get
> it covered in the book. (although I will be naming some notable alternative
> choice such as Rosetta in the last few paragraphs) Again, sorry about that,
> but attempting to cover everything would be madness.

I quite understand.  And good luck to you on the book project.

Even a mention in the printed book is very much appreciated.  Please let 
me know if there is anything about it you don't understand, so to make 
sure that any mention of it is factual.

I look forward to a 3rd edition of the advanced perl book, by which time 
Rosetta et al should be relatively mature and well known.

> I've had to do this with templating toolkits too, and doubtless I've already
> offended someone by my selection there as well.

Well, this is a limit of a printed book.

Perhaps you could mention in the book that an expanded version of those 
chapters is available on the O'reilly website, and anyone who missed out 
getting in the book can have equivalent info there in the electronic 
appendicies.

-- Darren Duncan

[Openinteract-dev] Re: [Poop-group] [announce] The Object Persistathon! (2nd try)

[David N. <dav...@gm...>]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:14:56 -0800 (PST), Darren Duncan
<da...@da...>
> 
> I appreciate you being as up front with this as early as you are.  Now I
> won't have to waste my time implementing all those specs and tests etc.

Me too.

On yet another hand, having a standard problem to solve in yer examples
would make picking and choosing from the multitude easier, when you have
to select a persistence abstraction, from looking at the documentation of them
all.

[Openinteract-dev] Re: [Poop-group] [announce] The Object Persistathon! (2nd try)

[Dave R. <au...@ur...>]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Simon Cozens wrote:

> Darren Duncan:
>> First of all, I would *definitely* be interested in implementing the
>> things you mention using my bleeding-edge Rosetta/SQL::Routine framework.
>
> Ah. I didn't ask for that.
>
> You see, there are about 30,000 new, cool and bleeding edge object persistence
> / object representation frameworks on CPAN, and I don't want the chapter to be
> 30,000 pages long. To avoid this, I had to make a selection, and the problem
> with making selections is that it upsets people who wrote the things which
> didn't get selected. I'm sorry about that. I tried to select a list of
> frameworks which were either well known, widely used or well designed; you can
> amuse yourself by guessing which category I filed each one into. The final
> list was Alzabo, SPOPS, CDBI, Pixie, Class::Persist and Tangram, and I'm
> afraid that's not negotiable. I have to make a selection somehow.

However, I would be happy to include this stuff in another document at 
poop.sourceforge.net.


-dave

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