opencfd-develop — the mailing list for OpenCFD developers

RE: [Opencfd-develop] Hi everybody

[Jinming X. <jin...@ms...>]

I am working on something like the methodology.

o--------------------------------------------------------------o
|  Jinming Xu  @ http://www.OpenCFD.org
o--------------------------------------------------------------o




>From: Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...>
>To: ope...@li...
>Subject: [Opencfd-develop] Hi everybody
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:13:37 -0800
>
>Hello guys! How are you doing? Do you have any news?
>
>Anton.
>
>
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[Opencfd-develop] Hi everybody

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

Hello guys! How are you doing? Do you have any news?

Anton.

[Opencfd-develop] OpenCFD specification 0.01 Discusssion with Anton

[Jinming X. <jin...@ms...>]

Hi Anton,

I am reading your comments. Obiviously you thought a lot about it. Here are 
some points I want to discuss with you as well as others:

1. parallel
I once though a bit but I didn't put it in. If you want to do it, then 
please document it into the specification accordingly.

2. GSL
Do we need GSL?

Other will be sent to you as I continue.

Have a good weekend!

Thanks,
o--------------------------------------------------------------o
|  Jinming Xu  @ http://www.OpenCFD.org
o--------------------------------------------------------------o

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[Opencfd-develop] Code Style

[Jinming X. <jin...@ms...>]

Hi Folks,

As Anton mentioned, we should have a uniform and good coding style. Can any 
of you suggest a good coding style, which is easy to follow and well 
described?


Thanks,

o---------------------------------------------------o
|     Jinming Xu  @ http://www.OpenCFD.org
o---------------------------------------------------o

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[Opencfd-develop] Re: scripting vs library

[Jinming X. <jin...@ms...>]

Hi Dano,

I have no new ideas about which GUI. You guys have to decide which one. 
Regarding CVS, please give me 2 or 3 weeks to work on.

Thanks,

o---------------------------------------------------o
|     Jinming Xu  @ http://www.OpenCFD.org
o---------------------------------------------------o

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Re: [Opencfd-develop] scripting vs library

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

Thank you Jinming,

I will study and transform your text into LaTeX + Makefile to produce 
both pdf and ps.

What do you think about CVS repository?

Thanks again,

Anton



Jinming Xu wrote:

>> From: Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...>
>> To: Jinming Xu <jin...@ms...>
>> Subject: mail list etc.
>> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:15:39 -0800
>>
>> Jinming,
>>
>>> (1) Regarding the GUI, you can discuss with dano, one of the 
>>> developers of OpenCFD. You two can take charge of it. I have no 
>>> strong opinion of any particular GUI. What I said may not be correct 
>>> and I don't stick with it. Let the hands-on developers decide.
>>
>>
>> Do you have a mail list? Probably, we could discuss it together.
>>
>>>
>>> (2) Regarding the stand-alone and library, you are only partially 
>>> right. The stand-alone you are talking about is not programmable. 
>>> The new version of OpenCFD will be programmable, or say scriptable. 
>>> So it's not merely a stand-alone, it's also a server, or a library. 
>>> You can use simple commands (macro) to control it. All the 
>>> commercial CFD software is like this.
>>
>>
>> I mostly agree. However, it is hard to develop a good script (or find 
>> a good one, that is IMHO better). Even more however ;), we are very 
>> different from commercial software. They chose this way (of 
>> stand-alone monsters with OS like behaviour) mostly because they are 
>> "close-source" and it is much more convenient for them to give some 
>> kind of enviroment for users. For an open-source projects it is very 
>> big advantage if the project is a library (open!) plus some gui 
>> scriptable interface above the library, some kind of front-end. Thus, 
>> we leave a choice for users what to use.
>
>
> Why do you think there is no good script to choose? From Tcl, Python 
> to Scheme, these scripting languages are widely used in commercial as 
> well as open-source codes. I once saw some open-source CFD codes use 
> scripting languages too.
>
> The big advantage of scripting is the easy of use, both in terms of 
> the labor involved and the skills required. In the sense of skills 
> involved, library approach will be very hard for users who are not 
> developers. Without scripting, you have to compile each time for each 
> job, but with script, all this can be done in a single script without 
> compilation.
>
> Here is a sample script for OpenCFD 0.3 to generate a grid:
> # --------------- Tutorial Script ------------------------
> # A very preliminary script for OpenCFD to generate a grid
> # For more info, please refer to the doc or visit http://opencfd.sf.net
> # All Rights Reserved!  Jinming Xu jx...@op...
> import geom
> geom.get("rub.dxf")
> geom.shrink([6.0])
> import grid
> grid.cart(30,25)
> grid.addExtrLayer(3,0.8)
> grid.save("2d-bas.cgns")
> #--------------------end---------------------------------------------
>
>> That is why I am talking about free library rather than an 
>> application like Matlab or Mathematica. I think Octave is not 
>> succeeded very much because they tried to be similar to Matlab. But 
>> GSL (GNU scientific library) succeeded much better due to they are 
>> different but still cover same tasks.
>>
>>
>> I do not mean that my opinion is better. It is my point of view as a 
>> user of a library and model developer. I think this is a kind of 
>> "UNIX-way": we have components (libraries) and we have fron-ends and 
>> UI if users need them. This is something different from commercial 
>> way, but it looks more attractive for me. Finally, this software is 
>> for advanced users or even for programmers (script or FORTRAN 
>> programmers at least), so the library could be very attractive for 
>> them still.
>>
>>>
>>> (3) Yes Latex files are much better than .docs. We can made this 
>>> change. Actually all the doc included in the tar ball is in latex.
>>
>>
>> Sounds just fine.
>>
>> Anton
>
>
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Re: [Opencfd-develop] scripting vs library

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

>we can also keep it as a library 

Jinming, that is the best solution, thanks.

So, what library is better for the GUI?

Anton

Re: [Opencfd-develop] scripting vs library

[Jinming Xu <jin...@ya...>]

--- Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...> wrote:

> Hi Jinming,
> 
> It is really good to find some parser and all these
> stuff somewhere. 
> Well, all script languages you are talking about are
> general script 
> languages and they are fine. However, we still need
> to add some specific 
> commands to it, do not we? Then, we have to write
> parsers and so on... 

No parser at all. Only data conversion is needed! You
can take a look at
http://docs.python.org/ext/ext.html.

> Oh! I see you did it already :)
> 
> Probably, this is excellent. And your point of view
> is correct (your 
> script is very nice, so I appreciated). But what do
> you think about 
> library + frontend? So, the library (or kernel) and
> special 
> graphical/sciptable system above it. Well, probably
> I have to wait for 
> any developers docs  before any ideas :)) Sorry,
> guys. Maybe it looks 
> like this already. :)

We will still need a GUI, frontend in your words, for
the stand-alone or the library. As an alternative, we
can also keep it as a library. Once the code is ready,
actually a library is not far away from a stand-alone.

> 
> ---
> 
> Thank you for CGNS. I am studying it now.
> 
> Anton
> 
> Jinming Xu wrote:
> 
> >> From: Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...>
> >> To: Jinming Xu <jin...@ms...>
> >> Subject: mail list etc.
> >> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:15:39 -0800
> >>
> >> Jinming,
> >>
> >>> (1) Regarding the GUI, you can discuss with
> dano, one of the 
> >>> developers of OpenCFD. You two can take charge
> of it. I have no 
> >>> strong opinion of any particular GUI. What I
> said may not be correct 
> >>> and I don't stick with it. Let the hands-on
> developers decide.
> >>
> >>
> >> Do you have a mail list? Probably, we could
> discuss it together.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> (2) Regarding the stand-alone and library, you
> are only partially 
> >>> right. The stand-alone you are talking about is
> not programmable. 
> >>> The new version of OpenCFD will be programmable,
> or say scriptable. 
> >>> So it's not merely a stand-alone, it's also a
> server, or a library. 
> >>> You can use simple commands (macro) to control
> it. All the 
> >>> commercial CFD software is like this.
> >>
> >>
> >> I mostly agree. However, it is hard to develop a
> good script (or find 
> >> a good one, that is IMHO better). Even more
> however ;), we are very 
> >> different from commercial software. They chose
> this way (of 
> >> stand-alone monsters with OS like behaviour)
> mostly because they are 
> >> "close-source" and it is much more convenient for
> them to give some 
> >> kind of enviroment for users. For an open-source
> projects it is very 
> >> big advantage if the project is a library (open!)
> plus some gui 
> >> scriptable interface above the library, some kind
> of front-end. Thus, 
> >> we leave a choice for users what to use.
> >
> >
> > Why do you think there is no good script to
> choose? From Tcl, Python 
> > to Scheme, these scripting languages are widely
> used in commercial as 
> > well as open-source codes. I once saw some
> open-source CFD codes use 
> > scripting languages too.
> >
> > The big advantage of scripting is the easy of use,
> both in terms of 
> > the labor involved and the skills required. In the
> sense of skills 
> > involved, library approach will be very hard for
> users who are not 
> > developers. Without scripting, you have to compile
> each time for each 
> > job, but with script, all this can be done in a
> single script without 
> > compilation.
> >
> > Here is a sample script for OpenCFD 0.3 to
> generate a grid:
> > # --------------- Tutorial Script
> ------------------------
> > # A very preliminary script for OpenCFD to
> generate a grid
> > # For more info, please refer to the doc or visit
> http://opencfd.sf.net
> > # All Rights Reserved!  Jinming Xu jx...@op...
> > import geom
> > geom.get("rub.dxf")
> > geom.shrink([6.0])
> > import grid
> > grid.cart(30,25)
> > grid.addExtrLayer(3,0.8)
> > grid.save("2d-bas.cgns")
> >
>
#--------------------end---------------------------------------------
> >
> >> That is why I am talking about free library
> rather than an 
> >> application like Matlab or Mathematica. I think
> Octave is not 
> >> succeeded very much because they tried to be
> similar to Matlab. But 
> >> GSL (GNU scientific library) succeeded much
> better due to they are 
> >> different but still cover same tasks.
> >>
> >>
> >> I do not mean that my opinion is better. It is my
> point of view as a 
> >> user of a library and model developer. I think
> this is a kind of 
> >> "UNIX-way": we have components (libraries) and we
> have fron-ends and 
> >> UI if users need them. This is something
> different from commercial 
> >> way, but it looks more attractive for me.
> Finally, this software is 
> >> for advanced users or even for programmers
> (script or FORTRAN 
> >> programmers at least), so the library could be
> very attractive for 
> >> them still.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> (3) Yes Latex files are much better than .docs.
> We can made this 
> >>> change. Actually all the doc included in the tar
> ball is in latex.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sounds just fine.
> >>
> >> Anton
> >
> >
> >
>
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> >
> >
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> >
> >
> 
> 
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=== message truncated ===


=====
Jinming Xu
PhD Student
Mechanical Engineering Dept, Texas A&M University


		
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Re: [Opencfd-develop] scripting vs library

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

Hi Jinming,

It is really good to find some parser and all these stuff somewhere. 
Well, all script languages you are talking about are general script 
languages and they are fine. However, we still need to add some specific 
commands to it, do not we? Then, we have to write parsers and so on... 
Oh! I see you did it already :)

Probably, this is excellent. And your point of view is correct (your 
script is very nice, so I appreciated). But what do you think about 
library + frontend? So, the library (or kernel) and special 
graphical/sciptable system above it. Well, probably I have to wait for 
any developers docs  before any ideas :)) Sorry, guys. Maybe it looks 
like this already. :)

---

Thank you for CGNS. I am studying it now.

Anton

Jinming Xu wrote:

>> From: Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...>
>> To: Jinming Xu <jin...@ms...>
>> Subject: mail list etc.
>> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:15:39 -0800
>>
>> Jinming,
>>
>>> (1) Regarding the GUI, you can discuss with dano, one of the 
>>> developers of OpenCFD. You two can take charge of it. I have no 
>>> strong opinion of any particular GUI. What I said may not be correct 
>>> and I don't stick with it. Let the hands-on developers decide.
>>
>>
>> Do you have a mail list? Probably, we could discuss it together.
>>
>>>
>>> (2) Regarding the stand-alone and library, you are only partially 
>>> right. The stand-alone you are talking about is not programmable. 
>>> The new version of OpenCFD will be programmable, or say scriptable. 
>>> So it's not merely a stand-alone, it's also a server, or a library. 
>>> You can use simple commands (macro) to control it. All the 
>>> commercial CFD software is like this.
>>
>>
>> I mostly agree. However, it is hard to develop a good script (or find 
>> a good one, that is IMHO better). Even more however ;), we are very 
>> different from commercial software. They chose this way (of 
>> stand-alone monsters with OS like behaviour) mostly because they are 
>> "close-source" and it is much more convenient for them to give some 
>> kind of enviroment for users. For an open-source projects it is very 
>> big advantage if the project is a library (open!) plus some gui 
>> scriptable interface above the library, some kind of front-end. Thus, 
>> we leave a choice for users what to use.
>
>
> Why do you think there is no good script to choose? From Tcl, Python 
> to Scheme, these scripting languages are widely used in commercial as 
> well as open-source codes. I once saw some open-source CFD codes use 
> scripting languages too.
>
> The big advantage of scripting is the easy of use, both in terms of 
> the labor involved and the skills required. In the sense of skills 
> involved, library approach will be very hard for users who are not 
> developers. Without scripting, you have to compile each time for each 
> job, but with script, all this can be done in a single script without 
> compilation.
>
> Here is a sample script for OpenCFD 0.3 to generate a grid:
> # --------------- Tutorial Script ------------------------
> # A very preliminary script for OpenCFD to generate a grid
> # For more info, please refer to the doc or visit http://opencfd.sf.net
> # All Rights Reserved!  Jinming Xu jx...@op...
> import geom
> geom.get("rub.dxf")
> geom.shrink([6.0])
> import grid
> grid.cart(30,25)
> grid.addExtrLayer(3,0.8)
> grid.save("2d-bas.cgns")
> #--------------------end---------------------------------------------
>
>> That is why I am talking about free library rather than an 
>> application like Matlab or Mathematica. I think Octave is not 
>> succeeded very much because they tried to be similar to Matlab. But 
>> GSL (GNU scientific library) succeeded much better due to they are 
>> different but still cover same tasks.
>>
>>
>> I do not mean that my opinion is better. It is my point of view as a 
>> user of a library and model developer. I think this is a kind of 
>> "UNIX-way": we have components (libraries) and we have fron-ends and 
>> UI if users need them. This is something different from commercial 
>> way, but it looks more attractive for me. Finally, this software is 
>> for advanced users or even for programmers (script or FORTRAN 
>> programmers at least), so the library could be very attractive for 
>> them still.
>>
>>>
>>> (3) Yes Latex files are much better than .docs. We can made this 
>>> change. Actually all the doc included in the tar ball is in latex.
>>
>>
>> Sounds just fine.
>>
>> Anton
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's 
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>
>
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Re: [Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

Sorry, Daniel, you are right about QT. I also just now discussed it in 
some linux forum and found that it is impossiable to use any free 
license on Windows with QT. It looks like both QT and MFC are not our 
choice. We have alternatives like GTK+ and wxWidgets. I do not think 
Tcl/Tk is good for us, what do you think?

Thanks,

Anton

Daniel Labrosse wrote:

> Hi guys.
>
> Please send all emails to ope...@li... no 
> need to include my email on there as well because Im already 
> subscribing to this list so I'm receiving every email twice!
>
> Here is an email response I got from Trolltech regarding licensing.....
> *******************************************************************
>
>> Is the Qt Edition Free Licensing available for MS Windows?
>
>
> No I am afraid not.
>
>> If I write an application using the Linux Qt Edition Free Licensing 
>> can I
>> then compile and distribute my program for MS Windows using the same 
>> licensing model?
>
>
> No this is not possible with Qt/X11 under the GPL license.
>
> I am afriad the only way for you to produce Windows executables is with
> a commercial Windows license, and due to the terms of the Windows
> license, you can not use the Qt/X11 GPL license with the commercial
> Qt/Windows license.
> *******************************************************************
>
>
> On the MFC side of things.
>
> A .net has nothing to do with MFC. WindowsForms API has replaced MFC 
> in the .net framework.
> B .net framework (you pay $$ VS.net) is free to download and distribute
> C. To use MFC, yes you do need a license for Visual C++ 6.0 or greater 
> (VS.net). I
>
> I overlooked that most developers will not have access to Visual C++, 
> so I agree with Anton that an perhaps an alternative would be better.
>
> -Daniel
>
>
> From: Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...>
> To: Daniel Labrosse <dan...@ho...>
> CC: ope...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits
> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:15:12 -0800
>
> The last thing. Sorry...
>
> MFC is not acceptable for the open source project. Indeed, if QT is 
> GPL'd for Linux (or free windows project, please read the licence!) 
> MFC is never and will be never licensed for free usage. You have to 
> buy .Net toolkit and so on still. That license is expensive.
>
> Finally, MFC and GPL together is nonsense!
>
> Anton
>
> Daniel Labrosse wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I've thought about using this WxWidgets (formerly WxWindows) GUI 
>> toolkit some time ago but my gut feelings are as follows....
>>
>> 1. Never used it so it▓s a learning curve
>> 2. I'm not sure how stable it is and I don▓t know any commercial 
>> projects written in it.
>> 3. If we agree to use Open Cascade, it has out of the box support MFC 
>> and QT not WxWidgets
>>
>> Personally, I think at this stage platform independence is minor 
>> issue. The sooner we get coding the quicker we will get a prototype 
>> working. I▓ve also looked at using Java for the GUI but I▓m reluctant 
>> to start using it since most of the engine will be coded in C++ and 
>> JNI bridging/JVM incompatibilities will only cause headaches. So C++ 
>> is definitely the way to go!
>>
>> I think we should use either QT or MFC for the GUI. Here are my pros 
>> and cons or both:
>>
>> MFC Pros:
>> Stable toolkit,
>> Used everywhere,
>> Knowledge base: There are hundreds of MFC developers out there so 
>> it▓ll be easy to recruit developers. Also, I▓m currently developing 
>> an MFC application where I work!
>>
>> MFC Cons:
>> You are locked into using windows
>>
>> QT Pros:
>> Stable toolkit
>> Better design than MFC
>> Cross platform
>>
>> QT Cons:
>> Free Licensing is only available to Linux, which effectively locks us 
>> into using Linux and alienates approximately 80% of our potential users.
>>
>>
>> If we get a prototype up and running using MFC then in the future we 
>> can port our code to Linux toolkit. For now, the most important thing 
>> is to get working version up and running! Let me know what you guys 
>> think.
>>
>> -Dano
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter 
>> tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
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>>
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>
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[Opencfd-develop] scripting vs library

[Jinming X. <jin...@ms...>]

>From: Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...>
>To: Jinming Xu <jin...@ms...>
>Subject: mail list etc.
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:15:39 -0800
>
>Jinming,
>
>>(1) Regarding the GUI, you can discuss with dano, one of the developers of 
>>OpenCFD. You two can take charge of it. I have no strong opinion of any 
>>particular GUI. What I said may not be correct and I don't stick with it. 
>>Let the hands-on developers decide.
>
>Do you have a mail list? Probably, we could discuss it together.
>
>>
>>(2) Regarding the stand-alone and library, you are only partially right. 
>>The stand-alone you are talking about is not programmable. The new version 
>>of OpenCFD will be programmable, or say scriptable. So it's not merely a 
>>stand-alone, it's also a server, or a library. You can use simple commands 
>>(macro) to control it. All the commercial CFD software is like this.
>
>I mostly agree. However, it is hard to develop a good script (or find a 
>good one, that is IMHO better). Even more however ;), we are very different 
>from commercial software. They chose this way (of stand-alone monsters with 
>OS like behaviour) mostly because they are "close-source" and it is much 
>more convenient for them to give some kind of enviroment for users. For an 
>open-source projects it is very big advantage if the project is a library 
>(open!) plus some gui scriptable interface above the library, some kind of 
>front-end. Thus, we leave a choice for users what to use.

Why do you think there is no good script to choose? From Tcl, Python to 
Scheme, these scripting languages are widely used in commercial as well as 
open-source codes. I once saw some open-source CFD codes use scripting 
languages too.

The big advantage of scripting is the easy of use, both in terms of the 
labor involved and the skills required. In the sense of skills involved, 
library approach will be very hard for users who are not developers. Without 
scripting, you have to compile each time for each job, but with script, all 
this can be done in a single script without compilation.

Here is a sample script for OpenCFD 0.3 to generate a grid:
# --------------- Tutorial Script ------------------------
# A very preliminary script for OpenCFD to generate a grid
# For more info, please refer to the doc or visit http://opencfd.sf.net
# All Rights Reserved!  Jinming Xu jx...@op...
import geom
geom.get("rub.dxf")
geom.shrink([6.0])
import grid
grid.cart(30,25)
grid.addExtrLayer(3,0.8)
grid.save("2d-bas.cgns")
#--------------------end---------------------------------------------

>That is why I am talking about free library rather than an application like 
>Matlab or Mathematica. I think Octave is not succeeded very much because 
>they tried to be similar to Matlab. But GSL (GNU scientific library) 
>succeeded much better due to they are different but still cover same tasks.
>
>
>I do not mean that my opinion is better. It is my point of view as a user 
>of a library and model developer. I think this is a kind of "UNIX-way": we 
>have components (libraries) and we have fron-ends and UI if users need 
>them. This is something different from commercial way, but it looks more 
>attractive for me. Finally, this software is for advanced users or even for 
>programmers (script or FORTRAN programmers at least), so the library could 
>be very attractive for them still.
>
>>
>>(3) Yes Latex files are much better than .docs. We can made this change. 
>>Actually all the doc included in the tar ball is in latex.
>
>Sounds just fine.
>
>Anton

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[Opencfd-develop] OpenCFD specification 1.0 for Anton

[Jinming Xu <jin...@ya...>]

Hi Anton,

Here is the spec I wrote around 1~2 months ago. Please
use it as a reference. If you like, you can change it
to latex.

Thanks,


=====
Jinming Xu
PhD Student
Mechanical Engineering Dept, Texas A&M University


		
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[Opencfd-develop] OpenCFD 1.0 Draft Specification

[Jinming Xu <jin...@ya...>]

Dano,

Do you have a copy of OpenCFD 1.0 Draft Specification
on your machine? Could you please send a copy to
Anton, so he can know more about it. Due to my machine
problems, I cannot get my copy out these days.

Thanks,

Jinming


		
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Re: [Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits

[Daniel L. <dan...@ho...>]

Hi guys.

Please send all emails to ope...@li... no need to 
include my email on there as well because Im already subscribing to this 
list so I'm receiving every email twice!

Here is an email response I got from Trolltech regarding licensing.....
*******************************************************************
>Is the Qt Edition Free Licensing available for MS Windows?

No I am afraid not.

>If I write an application using the Linux Qt Edition Free Licensing can I
>then compile and distribute my program for MS Windows using the same 
>licensing model?

No this is not possible with Qt/X11 under the GPL license.

I am afriad the only way for you to produce Windows executables is with
a commercial Windows license, and due to the terms of the Windows
license, you can not use the Qt/X11 GPL license with the commercial
Qt/Windows license.
*******************************************************************


On the MFC side of things.

A .net has nothing to do with MFC. WindowsForms API has replaced MFC in the 
.net framework.
B .net framework (you pay $$ VS.net) is free to download and distribute
C. To use MFC, yes you do need a license for Visual C++ 6.0 or greater 
(VS.net). I

I overlooked that most developers will not have access to Visual C++, so I 
agree with Anton that an perhaps an alternative would be better.

-Daniel


From: Anton Kulchitsky <an...@ku...>
To: Daniel Labrosse <dan...@ho...>
CC: ope...@li...
Subject: Re: [Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:15:12 -0800

The last thing. Sorry...

MFC is not acceptable for the open source project. Indeed, if QT is GPL'd 
for Linux (or free windows project, please read the licence!) MFC is never 
and will be never licensed for free usage. You have to buy .Net toolkit and 
so on still. That license is expensive.

Finally, MFC and GPL together is nonsense!

Anton

Daniel Labrosse wrote:

>Hi guys,
>
>I've thought about using this WxWidgets (formerly WxWindows) GUI toolkit 
>some time ago but my gut feelings are as follows....
>
>1. Never used it so it’s a learning curve
>2. I'm not sure how stable it is and I don’t know any commercial projects 
>written in it.
>3. If we agree to use Open Cascade, it has out of the box support MFC and 
>QT not WxWidgets
>
>Personally, I think at this stage platform independence is minor issue. The 
>sooner we get coding the quicker we will get a prototype working. I’ve also 
>looked at using Java for the GUI but I’m reluctant to start using it since 
>most of the engine will be coded in C++ and JNI bridging/JVM 
>incompatibilities will only cause headaches. So C++ is definitely the way 
>to go!
>
>I think we should use either QT or MFC for the GUI. Here are my pros and 
>cons or both:
>
>MFC Pros:
>Stable toolkit,
>Used everywhere,
>Knowledge base: There are hundreds of MFC developers out there so it’ll be 
>easy to recruit developers. Also, I’m currently developing an MFC 
>application where I work!
>
>MFC Cons:
>You are locked into using windows
>
>QT Pros:
>Stable toolkit
>Better design than MFC
>Cross platform
>
>QT Cons:
>Free Licensing is only available to Linux, which effectively locks us into 
>using Linux and alienates approximately 80% of our potential users.
>
>
>If we get a prototype up and running using MFC then in the future we can 
>port our code to Linux toolkit. For now, the most important thing is to get 
>working version up and running! Let me know what you guys think.
>
>-Dano
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
>more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
>
>
>
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Re: [Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

Sorry, guy, it is again me. Really the last thing:::

Daniel, few words about your prejustice to wxWidgets

> 1. Never used it so it▓s a learning curve

:) We should try it first. All curves are learning, actually

Applications using wxWidgets include AOL Communicator 
<http://www.aolepk.com/communicator/index.html>, Audacity 
<http://audacity.sourceforge.net/>, AVG AntiVirus 
<http://www.grisoft.com/>, CADToMill <http://www.cadtomill.com/>, 
Chandler <http://www.osafoundation.org/>, Chess Commander 
<http://www.chesscommander.com/>, CTSim <http://www.ctsim.org/>, Display 
Doctor <http://www.scitechsoft.com/products/enterprise/sdd_home.html>, 
EarthVision <http://www.dgi.com/>, Forte Agent 
<http://www.forteinc.com/release/release.php?id=200.php>, HelpBlocks 
<http://www.anthemion.co.uk/helpblocks>, ImageLinks 
<http://www.imagelinks.com/>, Intuitive MX 
<http://www.intuitiveworks.com/>, LDAP Explorer 
<http://ldaptool.sourceforge.net/>, ShareDaemon 
<http://sharedaemon.sourceforge.net/>, Mahogany 
<http://mahogany.sourceforge.net/>, MinGW Developer Studio 
<http://www.parinya.ca/>, MojoWorld 
<http://www.pandromeda.com/page/products/>, Musik 
<http://musik.sourceforge.net/>, StoryLines 
<http://www.storylinescentral.com>, TerraIM 
<http://terraim.sourceforge.net/>, TortoiseCVS 
<http://www.tortoisecvs.org>, VietAnh 
<http://www.griessersoftware.com/vietanhw/index.htm>, Voxel 3D 
<http://www.everygraph.com/voxel3d>, Vulcan <http://www.vulcan3d.com/>, 
wxBlogger <http://homepage.mac.com/codonnell/wxblogger/>, xCHM 
<http://xchm.sourceforge.net/>, Zeemo <http://www.zeemo.com/>, Zempt 
<http://www.zempt.com/> ...


> 2. I'm not sure how stable it is and I don▓t know any commercial 
> projects written in it.

Commercial projects try to avoid any LGPL'd libraries! It does not say 
anything. However, AOL communicator or AVG antivirus and many others are 
commercial projects.

> 3. If we agree to use Open Cascade, it has out of the box support MFC 
> and QT not WxWidgets

No comments due to I do not know about Open Cascade anything yet. :(

Re: [Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

The last thing. Sorry...

MFC is not acceptable for the open source project. Indeed, if QT is 
GPL'd for Linux (or free windows project, please read the licence!) MFC 
is never and will be never licensed for free usage. You have to buy .Net 
toolkit and so on still. That license is expensive.

Finally, MFC and GPL together is nonsense!

Anton

Daniel Labrosse wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I've thought about using this WxWidgets (formerly WxWindows) GUI 
> toolkit some time ago but my gut feelings are as follows....
>
> 1. Never used it so it▓s a learning curve
> 2. I'm not sure how stable it is and I don▓t know any commercial 
> projects written in it.
> 3. If we agree to use Open Cascade, it has out of the box support MFC 
> and QT not WxWidgets
>
> Personally, I think at this stage platform independence is minor 
> issue. The sooner we get coding the quicker we will get a prototype 
> working. I▓ve also looked at using Java for the GUI but I▓m reluctant 
> to start using it since most of the engine will be coded in C++ and 
> JNI bridging/JVM incompatibilities will only cause headaches. So C++ 
> is definitely the way to go!
>
> I think we should use either QT or MFC for the GUI. Here are my pros 
> and cons or both:
>
> MFC Pros:
> Stable toolkit,
> Used everywhere,
> Knowledge base: There are hundreds of MFC developers out there so 
> it▓ll be easy to recruit developers. Also, I▓m currently developing an 
> MFC application where I work!
>
> MFC Cons:
> You are locked into using windows
>
> QT Pros:
> Stable toolkit
> Better design than MFC
> Cross platform
>
> QT Cons:
> Free Licensing is only available to Linux, which effectively locks us 
> into using Linux and alienates approximately 80% of our potential users.
>
>
> If we get a prototype up and running using MFC then in the future we 
> can port our code to Linux toolkit. For now, the most important thing 
> is to get working version up and running! Let me know what you guys 
> think.
>
> -Dano
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools 
> and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

Hi Daniel  and everybody,

I use to be an MFC developer (You can download some examples from my web 
page). Well, it is nice. The problem is only one. Such things are not 
available for me any more because both my work and home computers are 
GNU/Linux machines and I have no option to use Windows. Moreover, I am 
not going to do this any more (I am more than 2.5 years use only GNU/Linux).

May I repeat my point of view from my message to Jinming:

 >>FROM THE MAIL

> Jinming:::
> (2) Regarding the stand-alone and library, you are only partially 
> right. The stand-alone you are talking about is not programmable. The 
> new version of OpenCFD will be programmable, or say scriptable. So 
> it's not merely a stand-alone, it's also a server, or a library. You 
> can use simple commands (macro) to control it. All the commercial CFD 
> software is like this.


I mostly agree. However, it is hard to develop a good script (or find a 
good one, that is IMHO better). Even more however ;) , we are very 
different from commercial software. They chose this way (of stand-alone 
monsters with OS like behaviour) mostly because they are "close-source" 
and it is much more convenient for them to give some kind of enviroment 
for users. For an open-source projects it is very big advantage if the 
project is a library (open!) plus some gui scriptable interface above 
the library, some kind of front-end. Thus, we leave a choice for users 
what to use.

That is why I am talking about free library rather than an application 
like Matlab or Mathematica. I think Octave is not succeeded very much 
because they tried to be similar to Matlab. But GSL (GNU scientific 
library) succeeded much better due to they are different but still cover 
same tasks.

I do not mean that my opinion is better. It is my point of view as a 
user of a library and model developer. I think this is a kind of 
"UNIX-way": we have components (libraries) and we have front-ends and UI 
if users need them. This is something different from commercial way, but 
it looks more attractive for me. Finally, this software is for advanced 
users or even for programmers (script or FORTRAN programmers at least), 
so the library could be very attractive for them still.

 >>>>END

To be honest, I do not like too much both QT and MFC :). This is why I 
suggested wxWidgets. I could suggest GTK+ also which is still portable 
for win32 users.

Probably, I still far from understanding of the real goal of the 
project. The important thing for me, as an FCD modeler, is to find a 
library with good mesh generating methods and effective and nice grid 
classes written in C/C++, which is MPI optimized (or can be) and its 
license would be compatible with GPL license (this license we use for 
our global ionospheric model). I was going to write some classes for 
working with fluxes, some classical and also TVD and FCT schemes and 
even maybe one completely new scheme for general classes of 
computational grids and test them.

Front end is nice and sometimes necessary thing, but should be written 
separately and can interact with the main library through the standart 
inteface (well, API). Thus, there might be two or more interfaces to the 
same kernel. This is my really humble point of view, nothing more :).

The last... IMHO, script language is also some kind of service or 
inteface which is very separate task from the kernel library (grid 
generation, flux calculations). It is also separate from the data 
structures (with methods - like sorting and so on - and intefaces - like 
input/output).

Anton


>
> MFC Pros:
> Stable toolkit,
> Used everywhere,
> Knowledge base: There are hundreds of MFC developers out there so 
> it▓ll be easy to recruit developers. Also, I▓m currently developing an 
> MFC application where I work!
>
> MFC Cons:
> You are locked into using windows
>
> QT Pros:
> Stable toolkit
> Better design than MFC
> Cross platform
>
> QT Cons:
> Free Licensing is only available to Linux, which effectively locks us 
> into using Linux and alienates approximately 80% of our potential users.
>
>
> If we get a prototype up and running using MFC then in the future we 
> can port our code to Linux toolkit. For now, the most important thing 
> is to get working version up and running! Let me know what you guys 
> think.
>
> -Dano
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools 
> and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
>
>
>
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>
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[Opencfd-develop] GUI toolkits

[Daniel L. <dan...@ho...>]

Hi guys,

I've thought about using this WxWidgets (formerly WxWindows) GUI toolkit 
some time ago but my gut feelings are as follows....

1. Never used it so it’s a learning curve
2. I'm not sure how stable it is and I don’t know any commercial projects 
written in it.
3. If we agree to use Open Cascade, it has out of the box support MFC and QT 
not WxWidgets

Personally, I think at this stage platform independence is minor issue. The 
sooner we get coding the quicker we will get a prototype working. I’ve also 
looked at using Java for the GUI but I’m reluctant to start using it since 
most of the engine will be coded in C++ and JNI bridging/JVM 
incompatibilities will only cause headaches. So C++ is definitely the way to 
go!

I think we should use either QT or MFC for the GUI. Here are my pros and 
cons or both:

MFC Pros:
Stable toolkit,
Used everywhere,
Knowledge base: There are hundreds of MFC developers out there so it’ll be 
easy to recruit developers. Also, I’m currently developing an MFC 
application where I work!

MFC Cons:
You are locked into using windows

QT Pros:
Stable toolkit
Better design than MFC
Cross platform

QT Cons:
Free Licensing is only available to Linux, which effectively locks us into 
using Linux and alienates approximately 80% of our potential users.


If we get a prototype up and running using MFC then in the future we can 
port our code to Linux toolkit. For now, the most important thing is to get 
working version up and running! Let me know what you guys think.

-Dano

_________________________________________________________________
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[Opencfd-develop] Open Cascade for pre/post processing

[Daniel L. <dan...@ho...>]

Hi all.

Welcome to the OpenCFD team Anton!

Its good to hear we're getting things back on track once more. I've been 
looking at a framework called Open Cascade. I think it could be a good 
option for us to base our Pre/Post processor on. Its an open source C++ 
software development platform and it includes components for 3D surface and 
solid modelling, visualization, data exchange and rapid application 
development. It will allow us to import/export CAD files in STEP and IGES 
format.

I can start work on the pre-processor using this technology. Please take a 
look http://www.opencascade.org/ and let me know what you think. If you like 
the framework I'll begin putting together a pre-processor demo (they have 
examples for this) that can import/export CAD files and we'lll take it from 
there....Mesh generation etc.

cheers!
-Dano

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[Opencfd-develop] hello everybody!

[Anton K. <an...@ku...>]

I am Anton Kulchitsky from University of Alaska Fairbanks (ID atoku at 
sf.net and everywhere else), and hope to be useful for flux code for the 
openCFD and other parts of the project. :)

Jinming wrote me that there is a question which GUI we will use and I 
suggested as an example wxWindows.org. Do you have any ideas about this?

I am happy to participate in such a project really,

Thanks,

Anton Kulchitsky.