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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-07-30 18:06:22
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Hi all, The list has been rather quiet the last days ;-) Well, this is just to tell all of you that Kirk kindly proofread the first release of Software Documentation Structure, which most of you (at least the English-speaking project/list members) eagerly expect, so as to make up their minds about ODoMoMoS in the first place. I'll have a last look at it (hopefully tomorrow), so it can be published in Source Forge... after which, real work (incremental improvement and enrichment of its contents) can begin! Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-07-03 18:00:16
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Kirk, Please find enclosed the preliminary release of ODoMoMoS's long-awaited Software Documentation Structure, as a Trados uncleaned document. I'm cc-ing this e-mail to ODoMoMos Devel List just in case some begin to wonder if we're going to output anything at all ;-)) So... I hope you can review this document and return it within a reasonable time - it's nearly 3000 source words long. P.S. You might simply create a new Trados TM and return it to me (for future documents) along with the uncleaned document when you have finished. Recommendations for ODoMoMos Devel List members: 1. Non-Trados experts, simply toggle on or off the display of hidden text to show what you want to 2. Please wait until this English document is duly proof-read by Kirk before sending any (most welcome) feed-back. 3. You may (or not) notice a small number of minor changes which I decided to make the text more clear as I pre-translated it - they are really minor. Kirk, please suggest some if you feel they are helpful. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-14 07:50:59
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Hi all, I received a rather positive answer from XXE's team, Pixware. Here is the feed-back I got. My comments are in English between -------- for clarity's sake. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure -----Message d'origine----- De: hu...@sa... [mailto:hu...@sa...] De la part de Hussein Shafie Date: mercredi 12 juin 2002 11:01 À: Henri Chorand Objet: RE: Prise de contact concernant le projet ODoMoMoS et XXE > Dans ce cadre, je me permets donc de vous demander ce que vous pensez d'un > tel projet, Je vais lire le document que vous avez publié sur sourceforge. Sinon, à priori, le projet, tel que vous me le présentez, me semble intéressant. > et si vous accepteriez de nous apporter votre aide (une > assistance technique limitée) en cas de besoin. La mailing-list xml...@xm... me semble tout à fait adaptée à ce type de besoin. Voir http://www.xmlmind.com/mailman/listinfo/xmleditor-support . Il est impératif de rédiger les messages destinées à cette mailing-list en anglais. ----------------------------------------------------------- Their mailing list (English only) is open for us to ask for help if need be. ----------------------------------------------------------- > Je m'empresse de préciser > que la documentation de votre produit, très bien faite, semble contenir > toutes les informations dont nous avons besoin actuellement. La seule > question que je souhaiterais vous poser actuellement concerne le mode de > sélection de la langue de l'interface, que je n'ai pas vu dans les options. Ce mode est automatique en fonction de la locale de l'utilisateur. Exemple, sous un Windows en Espagnol, tous les menus et messages de XXE sont en Espagnol. (XXE M1.x est disponible en anglais, français et en espagnol.) Vous pouvez ``forcer'' XXE à utiliser une locale autre que celle par défaut en utilisant une option de ligne de commande cryptique, essentiellement destinée aux développeurs de XXE. Exemple: -Duser.language=en . (Pour plus d'infos, lire et éditer xxe.bat, exemple de fichier de lancement de XXE, disponible sous le répertoire où est installé XXE.) ----------------------------------------------------------- XXE interface defauts to the user's language. The above explains how to use a different language. This was my only question to them. ----------------------------------------------------------- -- Hussein SHAFIE hu...@pi... Pixware www.pixware.fr Immeuble Capricorne, 23 rue Colbert, 78180 Montigny Le Bretonneux, France Phone: +33 (0)1 30 60 07 00 Fax: +33 (0)1 30 96 05 23 |
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From: Vera F. <ver...@wa...> - 2002-06-09 22:48:17
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> > You need a more simple language, e.g. something similar to TeX (do you > > remember this old-fashioned tool?). But who use them now? > > I never used such stuff. I fact, I mainly wrote manuals with MS-Word, which > sometimes was a pain, and RoboHelp or similar tools. Henri, we used TeX a long time ago - when Windows, MS-Word etc. didn't exist..... In principle, TeX was created as a markup language for electronic publications (not only manuals). It is still alive, and there even exist recent modern versions. If you are curious to know more - look at http://www.cemi.rssi.ru/cyrtug/BaKoMa.TeX/doc/eng/index.html But please don't think that I insist on TeX and want you to use it. I only mentioned it as an example of a "less general" approach. Regards Vera |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-09 21:11:39
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Hi all, > I can not tell I am XML-fluent but however I used it not once, especially > for miltilingual language ressources. > I have to say I don't like it. It is too great, too general. Yes, if we were to take it "straight from the box", I agree it would be a pain having to learn and all that. What would interest me is to be able to provide an authoring environment which would have its advantages. I think it's clear that ODoMoMoS means easing things for authors who are non-developers. What I meant to say is that there probably are ways to generate structured XML documents without having to learn XML, I see it as a layer. Basically, I think we may be successful with the following types of authoring environments: - XML-based - online doc-based - word processor-based For now, I would like ODoMoMoS to assess what's available for each of these environments so as to select a base configuration and give it a chance. If we find out that one of these proves hopeless, then let's drop it, of course. Here is how I see things presently: XML DocBook seems a very interesting initiative. Also, once we provide our XML-based doc structure template, to be used for instance with XMLmind's XML Editor (XXE), the average author should not be required to dwelve with XML intricacies (at least if we manage it), but should only have to add as many pre-defined "topics" (eg. reference guide with X screens, the first one having Y objects, etc.) as in the software he's documenting. Of course, all this is probably presently simpler to achieve with a word processor. Everybody could notice that there is actually quite a bit of activity around XML. If I'm wrong, let's drop it. Maybe we will eventually decide that things are not mature enough and that we have to wait some time to see more projects come out. Online doc Most interesting online authoring software is not open source, but we should give it some of our attention. You may see for instance what's available on www.helpmaster.com, which is great site for my trade. As a writer, I believe the "dream tool" could look like RoboHelp in terms of stability, ease of use and wealth of authoring features, and be XML-compatible one day. Word processor This is the only environment for which we already know everything will certainly work. We have Open Office. But it's not designed for authoring online documentation. > And I have to add that, as far as I understand, it is not very convenient > for OdoMomos. You don't need its so-called "advantages". > You need a more simple language, e.g. something similar to TeX (do you > remember this old-fashioned tool?). But who use them now? I never used such stuff. I fact, I mainly wrote manuals with MS-Word, which sometimes was a pain, and RoboHelp or similar tools. I'm reluctant to use any character-mode tools. WYSIWIG (or near it) is a priority for non-coding authors. Even if they are great for the people who use it. > > Therefore, I suggest that we should all download and install it on our > > computers so as to have a first look at it. Then, anybody > wanting to keep > > looking for other tools might briefly assess them on his/her own side as > > compared to XXE. > OK. > But I have to finish my tests with Foreigndesk before. Sure. > I would like to clarify one question. You need XML editor for at least two > purposes: > - to handle software manuals Yes (at least try it to see how it can work). > - to edit web-pages of the project in order to publish various project > information on the Web No. For basic project information, a portal is everything we need: link database, download zone & FAQ. For reference documentation like project overview and first, interim releases of reference materials (checklist), I would suggest Open Office. > Are you sure that for these two purposes we have to use the same tool? No ! don't worry ;-)) Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Vera F. <ver...@wa...> - 2002-06-07 20:25:03
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> I must also add that as I'm a total XML newbie, I'm not > sure I would know easily how to implement DocBook on a given XML tool. Right. If XXE has it readily implemented, it is a great advantage. > Once > an XML expert has joined the project, this might change a lot, of course. I can not tell I am XML-fluent but however I used it not once, especially for miltilingual language ressources. I have to say I don't like it. It is too great, too general. And I have to add that, as far as I understand, it is not very convenient for OdoMomos. You don't need its so-called "advantages". You need a more simple language, e.g. something similar to TeX (do you remember this old-fashioned tool?). But who use them now? > Therefore, I suggest that we should all download and install it on our > computers so as to have a first look at it. Then, anybody wanting to keep > looking for other tools might briefly assess them on his/her own side as > compared to XXE. OK. But I have to finish my tests with Foreigndesk before. > let's refrain from using cracks for ODoMoMoS, even if widely available! I'm not stating a moral judgement, I > just want to point out that it's not a viable option for a "respectable" > project, even more since we've already got one suitable tool. Absolutely! I didn't want you to use it. I showed it because for me the existence of "cracks" confirms the product quality (and demand.- for marketing studies). > Dreamweaver is really great for Web sites, but I'm not tempted to select it > as I'm not sure how it does with DTDs and DocBook. I would like to clarify one question. You need XML editor for at least two purposes: - to handle software manuals - to edit web-pages of the project in order to publish various project information on the Web Are you sure that for these two purposes we have to use the same tool? Best regards Vera |
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From: Vera F. <ver...@wa...> - 2002-06-07 19:07:28
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Simos, you can use www.translate.ru not only for Russian-English translations but for French-English as well. You will see - there are "text translatuon" "Web translation" and "Email translation" services. Certainly machine translation is not a very good translation but however it allows to have an idea of the contents. Regards Vera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simos Xenitellis" <si...@gm...> To: "Henri Chorand" <hen...@ke...> Cc: "ODoMoMos Devel List" <odo...@li...> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [Odomomos-devel] XML editors (cont.) > > > P.S. I copied to the list an e-mail I just sent to people from Amaya project > > team. Simos, I hope you can get an idea of its contents, if not, please let > > me know, I'll provide digests then. > > I got the gist of the e-mail. > > Thanks, > simos > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > _______________________________________________ > Odomomos-devel mailing list > Odo...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/odomomos-devel |
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From: Simos X. <si...@gm...> - 2002-06-07 16:14:01
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> P.S. I copied to the list an e-mail I just sent to people from Amaya project > team. Simos, I hope you can get an idea of its contents, if not, please let > me know, I'll provide digests then. I got the gist of the e-mail. Thanks, simos |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-07 09:51:03
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Bonjour, Je me permets de vous contacter car j'ai découvert récemment votre produit XXE, cité dans la page Tools du site Open Oasis: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/docbook/tools/index.shtml Tout d'abord, permettez-moi de me présenter brièvement. J'ai créé une petite entreprise de documentation technique et de traduction (6 personnes), Kemper DOC (http://www.kemperdoc.com), basée à Quimper, et qui travaille essentiellement dans le domaine de l'industrie du logiciel (projets de localisation). J'ai lancé fin mai un projet Open Source destiné à faciliter la création de documentations en ligne, ODoMoMoS (Open Documentation Model Module Structure), en pensant à tous les rédacteurs techniques de la planète, mais aussi aux nombreux projets de logiciels libres, dont une bonne part pèche du côté de la documentation, et dont nous espérons ainsi favoriser la diffusion. Le site de notre projet est: http://sourceforge.net/projects/odomomos L'idée générale du projet ODoMoMoS est de: - Se placer au niveau et du point de vue des auteurs de documentations. - Fournir une "check-list" avec les X bonnes questions à se poser avant de commencer à concevoir et écrire une documentation. - Examiner les normes présentes et en retenir un certain nombre, en privilégiant les standards ouverts aux formats propriétaires dans la mesure du possible (la phase initiale du projet a ainsi rapidement permis de déterminer que XML et DocBook étaient incontournables) - Proposer une structure modulaire correspondant à une documentation de logiciel, implémentée sur quelques configurations "de référence", choisies pour leur qualité, leur portabilité et leur facilité d'utilisation (nous pensons aussi à Open Office). - Couvrir l'ensemble du cycle de vie de la documentation, donc penser également à la traduction (en particulier avec le logiciel Foreign Desk, en Open Source). - Fournir ces outils en anglais et en français. Dans le cadre de ce projet, nous recherchions en particulier un éditeur XML acceptant la DTD DocBook, de préférence basé sur des standards ouverts, portable et utilisable par des non-informaticiens (interface graphique). C'est pourquoi je souhaitais tout d'abord vous indiquer que j'ai été très heureux de constater que la licence de distribution que vous avez choisie autorise les particuliers comme les entreprises à utiliser gratuitement XXE dans le cadre spécifié par cette licence. Cela nous amène donc à préconiser votre outil dans le cadre de ce projet. Dans ce cadre, je me permets donc de vous demander ce que vous pensez d'un tel projet, et si vous accepteriez de nous apporter votre aide (une assistance technique limitée) en cas de besoin. Je m'empresse de préciser que la documentation de votre produit, très bien faite, semble contenir toutes les informations dont nous avons besoin actuellement. La seule question que je souhaiterais vous poser actuellement concerne le mode de sélection de la langue de l'interface, que je n'ai pas vu dans les options. Une des caractéristiques du projet ODoMoMoS est qu'il est réalisé en partie par, et pour des rédacteurs et des traducteurs, et non réservé aux seuls développeurs (ceux-ci pouvant également être des rédacteurs), même si, bien entendu, nous espérons qu'un ou plusieurs spécialistes de XML et DocBook pourront apporter leurs précieux concours. Nous cherchons non à créer un hypothétique super-logiciel fourre-tout, mais à évaluer l'état de l'art, apporter de la méthode (empirique et basée sur l'expérience plutôt que théorique) ainsi que des outils au plus grand nombre (donc aussi à des non-spécialistes). Dans ce cadre, une aide ponctuelle de la part des auteurs d'un certain nombre d'outils de référence que nous préconisons serait fort précieuse. Je vous remercie d'avance pour votre attention et vos éventuelles remarques et suggestions. Meilleures salutations, Henri Chorand Directeur Kemper DOC Ingénierie Documentaire Documentation - Traduction - Localisation - Référencement 12 impasse Le Roux - 29000 Quimper - France Web www.kemperdoc.com Tél. +33 02 98 53 34 82 Fax +33 02 98 53 37 61 |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-07 09:23:33
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Dear all, > I have nothing against the tools you indicate but I > think there exist other alternatives. > I looked hastily to Russian Internet in order to know > what can be found there. Searching the web for XML editors and assessing each of these might be time-consuming, which is why I decided to limit my initial search to the tools listed on: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/docbook/tools/index.shtml That way, we benefit from a selection made depending on DocBook compatibility / usability. This is not to say that I don't want to hear about other tools. I must also add that as I'm a total XML newbie, I'm not sure I would know easily how to implement DocBook on a given XML tool. Once an XML expert has joined the project, this might change a lot, of course. Simos, in the case you are XML-fluent, sorry, I missed the point there. My initial exploration enabled me to select XML Editor from XMLmind (XXE), which: - exists in both French & English (the two languages into which ODoMoMoS is to publish its materials) - is fully portable (Linux, Mac OS/X and Windows, only needs Sun's latest JVM) - is entirely free to use for document authoring, as clearly specified by its license. - looks reasonably user-friendly and well-documented. - has DocBook (& CSS stylesheets) readily implemented. Therefore, I suggest that we should all download and install it on our computers so as to have a first look at it. Then, anybody wanting to keep looking for other tools might briefly assess them on his/her own side as compared to XXE. At this stage, if another tool looks more interesting, like EditML Pro, we can certainly take some time to look at it more in detail. I may also add that I like Macromedia Dreamweaver and work with a trial version at home, for personal use... but let's refrain from using cracks for ODoMoMoS, even if widely available! I'm not stating a moral judgement, I just want to point out that it's not a viable option for a "respectable" project, even more since we've already got one suitable tool. Dreamweaver is really great for Web sites, but I'm not tempted to select it as I'm not sure how it does with DTDs and DocBook. P.S. I copied to the list an e-mail I just sent to people from Amaya project team. Simos, I hope you can get an idea of its contents, if not, please let me know, I'll provide digests then. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-07 07:44:26
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Bonjour, Je vous remercie pour votre réponse rapide et précise. > Effectivement le projet thot n'est plus actif car le coeur de ce > logiciel a été repris par l'équipe amaya du w3c. Amaya, > initialement conçu pour l'édition html, évolue de plus en plus > vers XML. > cf. page amaya sur le site du w3c. C'est en effet ce que j'ai constaté. Je compte au moins suivre l'évolution du projet Amaya dans les prochains mois. > Peut -etre un développement adapté à docbook à partir d'amaya > serait possible? Pour le moment, nous avons simplement identifié DocBook comme standard ouvert incontournable pour notre projet, et notre souci est de l'évaluer, y compris du point de vue de non-spécialistes comme moi-même, afin de pouvoir en proposer l'implémentation la plus aisée et la plus portable, destinée à des non-spécialistes. Il pourrait être utile pour l'équipe du projet Amaya de s'intéresser à DocBook. Il se pourrait qu'elle soit amenée à proposer d'enrichir DocBook. Je m'empresse d'ajouter que je ne suis moi-même pas en mesure d'approfondir de telles questions. Le projet ODoMoMoS, lancé fin mai 2002. a été initié par des rédacteurs et traducteurs sensibilisés au mouvement Open Source, tels que moi-même (ainsi qu'un développeur-traducteur de projets Open Source) et l'équipe de projet ne comporte pas à ce jour de véritables spécialistes de XML et des DTD. L'objectif immédiat d'ODoMoMoS est de sélectionner un nombre réduit d'outils pour prototyper nos solutions, un par famille de produits pour commencer. Si ce projet connaît le succès espéré, dans un deuxième temps, il devrait être assez facile de "porter" nos modèles sur un plus grand nombre d'outils, en particulier si les équipes de ces autres outils trouvent notre démarche pertinente et y apportent une contribution qui devrait en fait être assez modeste en termes de temps passé. Tout d'abord, grâce à nos recherches et aux réponses précises des personnes que nous avons contactées, dont vous faites partie, nous avons réussi à identifier un minimum d'outils correspondant à nos besoins, dont XML Editor, de XMLmind (XXE). Je dois ajouter qu'au vu du grand nombre d'outils trouvés, je me suis rendu compte que l'évaluation comparée des outils existants représente une tâche en elle-même assez importante. Par conséquent, nous cherchons dans un premier temps à nous restreindre, et à valider notre démarche sur un tout petit nombre d'outils, sélectionnés pour: - leur maturité et stabilité - leur portabilité - l'étendue de leurs fonctionnalités - leur appartenance au mouvement du logiciel libre, ou au moins une possibilité d'utilisation gratuite prévue dans la licence, comme pour XXE (un autre de ces outils est Open Office.) D'autre part, une scientifique russe qui vit en France, Vera Semenova-Fluhr, a rejoint notre équipe de projet et nous apporte une aide précieuse de par ses relations avec différentes équipes de recherche en informatique, et il est possible qu'ODoMoMoS parvienne à bénéficier de travaux tels que Agile (Multilingual generation of soft manuals) rattaché au programme INCO-Copernicus. > Je mets en copie Irène Vatton responsable d'Amaya qui saura > vous répondre mieux que moi. Je me permets de mettre ce message en copie sur la liste de discussion du projet ODoMoMoS, même si elle est censée être en anglais, ainsi qu'à Irène Vatton, dont j'ai trouvé l'adresse sur la page d'accueil du projet Amaya. Sincères salutations, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Vera F. <ver...@wa...> - 2002-06-07 05:48:09
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Dear Henri, Simos &al, Sorry, I was very busy these last days and couldn't participate in your = work. Only yesterday evening I could read attentively your discussion. I have nothing against the tools you indicate but I think there exist = other alternatives.=20 I looked hastily to Russian Internet in order to know what can be found = there. First of all, on=20 http://www.softlinks.ru/files/s184p1.php I found a good list of XML/HTML editors, with comments. Unfortunately = the comments are in Russian, but you can read this page in English by = means of www.translate.ru, as I have already explained once to Henri. The tools seem interesting but I am not sure that they are all free. However, the 5th tool in this list (EditML Pro 2.5) is free. It can be = downloaded from http://www.softportal.com/download/item.php?id=3D347&lang=3Dru This page is in Russian, but I have found another page -=20 http://www.azcon.az/preview/136206.html where another version (EditML 1.1) is presented, with a short = description in English: This is for the advanced user! EditML Pro is an advanced text editor = that uses 4 different views to keep you hooked.=20 It works with XML, DTD, and CSS formats and can be in the form of a data = file, a schema file or a stylesheet. Import databases or text files and = start your editing.=20 The program has a simple interface, but clearly gets the job done. This = advanced editor can also be placed on your "what to get" list once you = have the knowledge to actually use it.=20 Enjoy the application; it's worthy of a download. Note: EditML Pro was created for an advanced user with knowledge in = XML, DTD, and CSS.=20 It is a Russian sofware product.=20 I wonder if it has an English interface and if yes - if it is good = enough. I had no time to download and to test it.=20 But there are a lot of other free tools, WITH English interface. It = seems impossible to test them all, that's why I found another solution: = I wrote to some very competent Web-designers in order to get their = advice on good free tools.=20 I also asked them which tools they prefer for their own work. BTW, when I browsed RuNet, on two different sites I saw the remarks of = two well-known Russian Web-designers. Absolutely independently, they = both mentioned Macromedia Dreamweaver as the best Web-editing tool for = professionals. I looked - certainly it is not free. A free trial version can be = downloaded from http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/ But certainly I found a free "crack" for this tool ! It can be = downloaded from http://www.tpi.ru/~stupin/progi.htm (in RuNet you can find "crack" for almost all good Western tools. I = think it looks awful for you, but it is so.) Best regards Vera |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-06 13:22:38
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Hi, Simos said: > Regarding the WWW space at http://odomomos.sourceforge.net/, I would > recommend (if there is no alternative proposition) to use phpWiki as the > mechanism to populate the pages. > An example of phpWiki is shown at > http://hlp.sourceforge.net/foreigndesk/ (not being updated at the > moment). > > The idea of phpWiki is that you can easily edit the WWW pages using > your browser. You do not have to write in HTML to edit, you just use a > simple language that expands to HTML. > For example, > > --------snip--------- > !!! This is a heading > > This is a paragraph of text. > > * This is a bullet point. > * This is another bullet point. > --------snip--------- > > The benefit of phpWiki is that it allows easy addition of content > without hassles. True. I personally see only another option - Post-Nuke. Simos will remember that for Foreign Desk project's portal, I favoured Post-Nuke, but its assets may be less obvious for ODoMoMoS project, for which we don't need the multilingual interface that much. ODoMoMoS has a small project team and we probably all want to avoid playing with the details. BTW, I think the time taken by Jonathan Clark to implement Post-Nuke (if he does it at all) might suggest to choose phpWiki. Simos, do you have any feedback about possible Post-Nuke setup hassles met by Jonathan? I would prefer to make up my mind (and vote) based on this experience. Meanwhile, let's wait until tomorrow for anybody else's votes, if any. P.S. I had no feed-back about my little logo experiments. Well, unless I get some, I vote for my little draft, file # 2. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-06 13:11:11
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Hi all, This is just to let all of you who did not already download XXE and play with it that you can find the following coordinates in one of XXE's dialog boxes: www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor xml...@xm... Pixware SARL Immeuble Capricorne 23 rue Colbert 78180 Montigny Le Bretonneux France Phone: (33) 01 30 60 07 00 Fax: (33) 01 30 96 05 23 Well, this means I'm going to contact these with a little more ease. After all, they may be fair-minded towards Open Source projects, and they might be able to provide quite a bit of help if they want, too. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-06 13:07:15
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Simos, 1) Files upload ---------------------- > For files that it is suitable to be released, we can release them in > SourceForge and they can be accessed from the FileList of the > SourceForge Project Page. > > Otherwise we can put them on the WWW space of ODoMoMos (about 100MB are > provided in total). > > I opt for the second solution, puting the files on the WWW space of > http://odomomos.sourceforge.net/ I second that. The files I would like see uploaded there are: - DocBook DTD (BUT... article.docb & chapter.docb are already pre-installed by XXE on the local hard drive, as well as other ones in the tree structure. As I'm pure-breed newbie with DocBook, I guess we have the complete set at hand, but I have to determine if they are modular or if a generic file calls the other ones) - A small set of .CSS files to ease beginner's work (later on) So you might already create two subdirectories for that purpose, eg. DTD and CSS. I have yet to see how to upload files there. Can we have a simple FTP access to ODoMoMoS's WWW space and use any FTP client to upload stuff there ? 2) Sun's JVM -------------------- > > 2) where to look for Java 1.4 on a Windows machine, if applicable? > > Go to http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/index.html > The link to download is on the third column at the right and says > "Download J2SETM v1.4.0_01 Now!". The text is in orange. Yeah, I finally found it there, thanks. I'm happy to have it, as the FAQ of XMLmind's XML Editor (XXE) seems to imply the latest release is best. I just tried to launch XXE and it seems really fine. I don't know why, but it automatically loaded with the French interface. This is great stuff - except I dunno how to change it in order to document using XXE in English at a later stage. "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien", as we say in French (I'm sure Kirk knows how to translate that). So, in the setup part of ODoMoMoS guidelines, I think I'll have to mention: Download & install Sun's JRE download & install XXE Setup XXE with links to SF- ODoMoMoS WWW space for: - DocBook's DTD - sample CSS files 3) CSS files ------------------ Some time ago, I found out a very handy, non-free (but very cheap) GUI tool for creating and managing CSS files under Windows. Let me know if you can think of a nice and free one (java-based?) which we could recommend such a tool so as to broaden the average ODoMoMoS user's toolbox. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Simos X. <si...@gm...> - 2002-06-06 12:18:55
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Dear All, Regarding the WWW space at http://odomomos.sourceforge.net/, I would recommend (if there is no alternative proposition) to use phpWiki as the mechanism to populate the pages. An example of phpWiki is shown at http://hlp.sourceforge.net/foreigndesk/ (not being updated at the moment). The idea of phpWiki is that you can easily edit the WWW pages using your browser. You do not have to write in HTML to edit, you just use a simple language that expands to HTML. For example, --------snip--------- !!! This is a heading This is a paragraph of text. * This is a bullet point. * This is another bullet point. --------snip--------- The benefit of phpWiki is that it allows easy addition of content without hassles. Cheers, simos |
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From: Simos X. <si...@gm...> - 2002-06-06 12:13:07
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=D4=E7=ED =D0=E5=EC, 06-06-2002 =F3=F4=E9=F2 10:55, =EF/=E7 Henri Chorand = =DD=E3=F1=E1=F8=E5: > Hi all, >=20 > Well, maybe there is a nice tool somewhere after all. If any of you tried= , > like me, to download & quickly assess Amaya, I tend to to believe he/she > must have been as disappointed as I was. Thin documentation, 1985-looking > interface... after all, it's an experimental product, isn't it? >=20 > I continued exploring the Oasis Open's tools page. I examined: >=20 > - XMetaL from SoftQuad is another expensive tool (USD 500), selected by > Microsoft. Oh well, that's half of Xeena's price after all. >=20 > - XML Editor from XMLmind also looks much more interesting in that the > license of the Standard Edition seems quite fit for us. See at: > http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/license.html >=20 > - Needs Java 1.3.1. One of the Windows includes it. Simos, can you tell i= f > one might expect Linux problems for Java? > - Works with & without DTDs and stylesheets :-)) > - DocBook support is available :-))) > - Linux, Windows NT/2000/XP and MacOS X versions are available. > - includes tools to convert DocBook documents to HTML, PostScript, PDF, R= TF > :-)) > - It lacks support for namespaces and XML-Schemas (both planned for futur= e > product). Can anybody say something about this? >=20 > Last questions: > 1) Simos, I guess we could use a public HTTP server so as to use to store > our DTD and CSS files (see at http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/faq.html).= Or > Source Forge... > I can offer our own server at http://www.kemperdoc.com if it helps. For files that it is suitable to be released, we can release them in SourceForge and they can be accessed from the FileList of the SourceForge Project Page. Otherwise we can put them on the WWW space of ODoMoMos (about 100MB are provided in total). I opt for the second solution, puting the files on the WWW space of http://odomomos.sourceforge.net/ > 2) where to look for Java 1.4 on a Windows machine, if applicable? Go to http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/index.html The link to download is on the third column at the right and says "Download J2SETM v1.4.0_01 Now!". The text is in orange. >=20 > I'm going to download it and try to see if I understand how to start writ= ing > a document within minutes or hours. >=20 > As I said: download, download, test, test, test, etc. ... AND please feel > free to send some feed-back! Best regards, Simos |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-06 09:55:51
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Hi all, Well, maybe there is a nice tool somewhere after all. If any of you tried, like me, to download & quickly assess Amaya, I tend to to believe he/she must have been as disappointed as I was. Thin documentation, 1985-looking interface... after all, it's an experimental product, isn't it? I continued exploring the Oasis Open's tools page. I examined: - XMetaL from SoftQuad is another expensive tool (USD 500), selected by Microsoft. Oh well, that's half of Xeena's price after all. - XML Editor from XMLmind also looks much more interesting in that the license of the Standard Edition seems quite fit for us. See at: http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/license.html - Needs Java 1.3.1. One of the Windows includes it. Simos, can you tell if one might expect Linux problems for Java? - Works with & without DTDs and stylesheets :-)) - DocBook support is available :-))) - Linux, Windows NT/2000/XP and MacOS X versions are available. - includes tools to convert DocBook documents to HTML, PostScript, PDF, RTF :-)) - It lacks support for namespaces and XML-Schemas (both planned for future product). Can anybody say something about this? Last questions: 1) Simos, I guess we could use a public HTTP server so as to use to store our DTD and CSS files (see at http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/faq.html). Or Source Forge... I can offer our own server at http://www.kemperdoc.com if it helps. 2) where to look for Java 1.4 on a Windows machine, if applicable? I'm going to download it and try to see if I understand how to start writing a document within minutes or hours. As I said: download, download, test, test, test, etc. ... AND please feel free to send some feed-back! Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-05 19:06:35
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Hi all, I spent some time exploring Thot web pages, until I came across its elder brother: http://www.w3.org/Amaya/ It seems it's got lots of things - except structure editing mode, but it looks like some sort of good start. At least, it has been ported under Linux, Windows & even Mac OS/X (hein, Kirk !) Plus, its documentation has been developped by interesting fellows I noticed some time ago - www.winwriters.com. Download, download, test, test, test, etc. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-05 18:11:01
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Hi all, I found some interesting postings on IBM's Alphaworks site - Xeena forum, see at: http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/forum/xeena.nsf/current?OpenView&Count=30 While a few Linux-minded developpers asked for some clarification about using Xeena exactly the way I would like to, it seems no answer was provided. Whether they did not really notice or they are happy with the present ambiguous situation seems unclear. I therefore posted the message below, with the hope that somebody at Alphaworks can answer. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure ---------------------------------------------- Hi, I recently started an Open Source project, ODoMoMoS (Open Documentation Model Module Structure, http://sourceforge.net/projects/odomomos) which aim is to help designing and writing documentation, especially for Open Source projects. Therefore, being able to use a mature, GUI-based XML editor would help a lot, but we would ONLY need to use such a tool to write documentation. We don't want to use it to sell anything. What's more, the very nature of this GPL-licensed project explicitly forbids any commercial use of such documentation built with the help of this project's deliverables. Along with some other posts, I feel that not only the license fee for Xeena is very expensive, but also that the license does not seem to take into account such needs, one way or the other. Please, could somebody from AlphaWorks confirm if buying the Xeena license is, or not, mandatory for simply writing documentation with it. |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-05 17:39:29
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Hi all, Well, Xeena is not free software yet :-(( 90 days trial is nice, but 1,000 USD is not. See at: http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/awlr.nsf/cl?readform&n=xeena Tomorrow is another day (hopefully) Well, unless the end of trial period can be circumvented some way [I meant some legal way]. <EndOfDayJoke> It seems IBM has not yet put all its stuff under Open Source license after all. </EndOfDayJoke> I have bookmarked a dozen of documentation and/or XML-related Source Forge projects which I have to look at more in detail. I only hope an Open Source, nice, graphic DocBook authoring tool is not a dream as far away from coming true as for instance an Open Source equivalent of DreamWeaver. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-05 17:03:48
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Hi all, I took some time to read the great article which URL I sent you in a previous posting: > On this "techie versus technical writer" fight, see > http://xml.oreilly.com/news/dontlearn_0701.html This confirmed my intuitions, that XML and associated standards are a deep sea for one who wants to get drown into. Also, after some more search (www.oasis-open.org being not so easy to browse), I did at last find a list of DocBook compatible tools, including free software, at: http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/docbook/tools/index.shtml No, we don't find Open Office in it - for now. No, I did not download & test each of the mentioned stuff yet - we have yet to determine the most mature one and portable one. Anybody's feedback about any of the ones I quote herebelow warmly appreciated: - ThotBook (this project seems being still at a very early stage) - Xeena (so IBM might save us) The remainder of the list concerns various tools & converters. When I think about "the ultimate dream tool (WYSIWYG and fool-proof) for DTD-compliant XML authoring", I can't help seeing some sort of two-pane view, one for building up a structure and the other one for typing text and applying style sheets. The initial enthousiam for Open Office I had has not vanished, but DocBook-enabling Open Office might represent SOME work, oh boys (& girls). So... I'm going to ask the following questions to all project team members: 1) Do we, at least at this stage, validate the idea that our authoring solution must use DocBook? I personally do not see any other option. This does not in any way alter my belief that we must have an end-user oriented tool, not some kind of DocBook plug-in for Emacs. 2) While it certainly would be very handy to use Open Office as authoring tool, we might not expect it to be already mature for DocBook. Maybe we'll have a nice surprise once we contact DocBook and/or Open Office teams. As a consequence, I believe we need a DocBook-compatible tool for implementing the next release of our Document Structure. I would be very happy to see some of you go at http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/xeena, download Xeena and give it a chance on your computer. At least, if it's Java based, it should be fully portable :-)) Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure P.S. If anybody has a better idea than the infamous "Helping Geeks to make Docs"... let me know about it ;-) |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-04 16:36:12
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Hi all, Vera provided me with the following feed-back about AGILE. Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure ---------------------------------------- Briefly: AGILE is another approach to the same problem. It is based on linguistic features of so-called "software manual specific sublanguage". But, in my opinion, this experience and tools can be used for OdoMomos, at least partially. The abbreviation "AGILE" means: Automatic Generation of Instructions in Languages of Eastern Europe AGILE is a tool which allows a technical author to specify, in a non-linguistic representation, the 'content' of different tasks that can be performed by users of CAD-CAM software. The AGILE system can then automatically express these content specifications in styles appropriate to different sections of a CAD-CAM manual (procedures, ready reference ...) in Bulgarian, Czech and Russian. The generated texts are displayed in a browser as hyperlinked documents. No expertise in knowledge representation is required, although some training with the interface is needed. The resources produced within the AGILE project include: - Computational grammars for Bulgarian, Czech and Russian implemented in the KPML environment - An extension of KPML to accommodate linguistic features characteristic of these three languages - A text structuring module that plans instructional texts in several styles - Comparative analyses of the target text types in these three languages - An interface that enables a user to specify the content of the manual and view the generated texts Agile info may be found at the http://www.itri.bton.ac.uk/projects/agile/ or http://www.itri.bton.ac.uk/projects/agile/deliverables/non-tech/agile-non-te chnical-overview.html The results of the project may be found at the http://www.itri.bton.ac.uk/projects/agile/deliverables/deliverables.html The responsible for the Russian part of this project was Serge Sharoff, from Russian Institute of Artificial Intellkigence. Till July'2002 his addresse will be ser...@un... . Best wishes! Vera |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-04 15:54:30
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Hi again, I took some time to make up my mind a little about Doc Book and it desperately looks like a command-line hacker thing. Still, is clearly looks like a good layer on which to build structured documents, so I believe we definitely have to contact their team so as to learn if implementing it under Open Office can be mastered and rendered rather painless. On this "techie versus technical writer" fight, see http://xml.oreilly.com/news/dontlearn_0701.html Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure Helping Geeks to make Docs |
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From: Henri C. <hen...@ke...> - 2002-06-04 08:31:49
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Hi all, I have not yet received any feed-back concerning the Project Overview document. Please let me know quickly if you believe it should be amended or if it broadly suits your ideas. I will then try to quickly finalize it and ask Simos to publish it as: Project Overview 0.1 English Also note that I added a 5.4 sub-project which aim is to contact AGILE project team and to see whether we can obtain some help & tools from them for generating documentation templates from a given software. This will require communication skills at an initial stage, and a senior developer if we are to look at tools more in detail. Well, if AGILE produced any such tools, they might also help ODoMoMoS... Thanks in advance! Best regards, Henri Chorand Project Manager ODoMoMoS Open Document Model Module Structure ------------------------------ The Project Overview document will describe: - Project objective - GNU license - Project deliverables (Project Overview, Guidelines, Model Module Structure's Implementations) - Documentation lifecycle workflow - Sub-projects ... & who does what - at least which parts I believe I can do within the next days or weeks. Here follows a draft of this document. I tried to define the characteristics of each task awaiting us in terms of: Document format: file format of deliverable Amount of work: rough, rule-of-thumb estimate Specialist guru required: whether special skills are required Difficulty level: rough, rule-of-thumb estimate Who Does It: Volunteers, don't hesitate to enlist ;-)) ---------------------- 1) Project objective ---------------------- I'll sum up some of the info I already sent in various e-mails. Document format: Open Office Amount of work: A couple of hours Specialist guru required: No Difficulty level: Low Who Does It: Henri + Feedback from project team ----------------- 2) GNU licence ----------------- I'll simply take a model file in English and add relevant project name & contact info, then translate it into French if I can't find one already translated somewhere on the Web. Document format: Text only (separate file) Amount of work: A couple of hours (if I can get hold of a translation) Specialist guru required: No Difficulty level: Low Who Does It: Henri ------------------------- 3) Project deliverables ------------------------- Document format: Open Office (to begin with) 3.1) Project Overview ------------------------- This is the present document once it's been completed. Amount of work: A couple of hours (to get started) Specialist guru required: No Difficulty level: Average Who Does It: Henri + Feedback from project team 3.2) Guidelines ------------------ I have to add a small missing part and finish producing a draft English version of the existing document already published, which is to be split in 2 parts. Guidelines will contain the checklist part. Amount of work: One day (can be further detailed later on) Specialist guru required: Yes (documentation) Difficulty level: High Who Does It: Henri (this should be one of my major contributions) 3.3) Model Module Structure's Implementations ------------------------------------------------------ 3.3.1) Open Office The other portion of the existing document, i.e. software documentation template plus a cascading style sheet Amount of work: Several days (with enough detail) Specialist guru required: Yes, rather (documentation) Difficulty level: Average Who Does It: Henri (this should be one of my major contributions) 3.3.2) RoboHelp Useful, but for me, it seems less urgent to me than the other deliverables. Would require some time to finalize. Amount of work: A few days (should be derived from 3.3.1 once it's finished or nearly) Specialist guru required: Documentation Difficulty level: Average Who Does It: Henri (same as 3.3.1) ------------------------------------------ 4) Documentation lifecycle workflow ------------------------------------------ Short, summary document listing design, authoring & translation steps and tools used. It should grow a bit with the number of tools selected. Amount of work: Several days (with enough detail) Specialist guru required: Yes, rather (localization & documentation) Difficulty level: Not too hard Who Does It: I'm going to make a draft of this. Of course, any help warmly appreciated ------------------ 5) Sub-projects ------------------ 5.1) Selecting & "benchmarking" (trying and assessing) Open Source authoring tools Now that we've seen Open Office was the one to begin with, I believe apart the quick research work I did (probably Simos too), the idea would be to: - Briefly review the list of projects/tools to select the most relevant ones (can be done later) - Once the project has taken off, show the corresponding teams what we achieved with Open Office and ask them their help about porting the stuff to their tools if they are interested. This approach should work with a few of them. Amount of work: Several days (can be done a bit at a time) Specialist guru required: Yes (open source, XML, communication skills) Difficulty level: High Who Does It: Any volunteers ? 5.2) Translation / localization As, similarly, Foreign Desk was selected as the first tool, we just need to: - Examine Open Office's uncompressed XML file format a bit in detail. - Test and document the pre-translation and post-translation file preparation procedures for each authoring software (Open Office for now). Amount of work: A few days (a few hours to begin with) Specialist guru required: localization & documentation Difficulty level: Average Who Does It: Simos, or else Thierry Sourbier ? 5.3) As I'm a real newbie concerning XML, this is just to say that some help would be appreciated to know a bit more what Open Office's DTD looks like and check how things happen with Foreign Desk. For instance, one must bear in mind that, when working with Trados, it's easy to translate XML files provided that the corresponding DTD is available and one must specify its path. Amount of work: A few hours Specialist guru required: XML expert Difficulty level: Average Who Does It: Thierry Sourbier would do this fine if he decides to join the project team 5.4) Contacting AGILE project team We might obtain help & tools for generating documentation templates from a given software. Amount of work: Moderate Specialist guru required: computing expert Difficulty level: Average Who Does It: Vera Fluhr if she accepts |