numpy-discussion

Re: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Francesc A. <fa...@ca...>]

Travis,

First of all, I think that you should be happy that you received *only*
a mail of this class in the year and some months that you are at the
NumPy project. As somebody already noted: "take a large enough
community, and you will always find a person (or several) that thinks
that the wiser developer and the best professional is evil". We can
disscuss largely why this should happen, but the answer is easy: it's
human nature.

Let me also THANK YOU not only for your impressive dedication to the
NumPy project but also for your openess to other ideas and to be the
best advocate of the "I prefer to code, rather than talk" mantra. Lets
do more of this and let others talk. I'm positive that 99% of the
community is with you, and that's the only consideration that is worth.

Best,

Francesc


El dt 04 de 04 del 2006 a les 15:17 -0600, en/na Travis Oliphant va
escriure:
> I received a rather hurtful email today that was very discouraging to me=20
> personally.  Basically, I was called "lame" and a "wolf" in sheep's=20
> clothing because I'm charging for documentation.    Fortunately it's the=20
> first email of that nature I've received.  Others have disagreed with my=20
> choice to charge for the documentation but at least they've not resorted=20
> to personal attacks on me and my motivations.   Please know that such=20
> emails do have an impact.  While I try to build a tough skin, such=20
> unappreciative statements reduce my enthusiasm for working on NumPy=20
> significantly.
>=20
> My purpose, however, is not to rant about the misguided words of one=20
> person.  He brought up a point that I want to clarify.  He asked if I=20
> "would sue" if somebody else wrote documentation for NumPy.   I want to=20
> be perfectly clear that this is a ridiculous statement that barely=20
> deserves a response.  Of course I wouldn't.   First of all, it would be=20
> extreme circumstances indeed for me to resort to that course of action=20
> (basically a company would have to copy my book and start distributing=20
> it on a large scale, belligerently).  Second of all, I would love to see=20
> *more* documentation for NumPy.
>=20
> If there are other (less vocal) people out there who are not using NumPy=20
> because of my book, then I certainly feel sorry about that.  Please dig=20
> in and create the documentation you so urgently want to be free.   I=20
> will not stand in your way, but may even help.
>=20
> But please consider that time is money.  Most people are better off=20
> spending their time on something else and just cooperating with others=20
> by paying for the book.  But, I'm not going to dislike or have any kind=20
> of ill feelings with anyone who decides to spend their time on=20
> "documentation."  In fact, I'll appreciate it just like everyone else. =20
> I love the growth of the SciPy Wiki.  There are some great recipes and=20
> examples there.  This is fantastic.  I'm 100% behind this kind of work. =20
> Rather than write some kind of "replacement" documentation, contribute=20
> docstrings to the code and recipes to the Wiki.   Then, those that can't=20
> or won't buy the book will still have plenty of resources to use to=20
> learn NumPy.
>=20
> I'm completely behind all forms of "free" information on NumPy / SciPy=20
> and related tools.  The only reason I have to charge for the=20
> documentation is that I just don't have the resources to simply donate=20
> *all* of my time.   I want to thank all of you who have already=20
> purchased the documentation.   It has been extremely helpful to me=20
> personally and professionally.   Without you, my time to spend on NumPy=20
> would have been significantly reduced.   Thank you very much.
>=20
> Best wishes,
>=20
> -Travis
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting langua=
ge
> that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webc=
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> _______________________________________________
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> Num...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/numpy-discussion
--=20
>0,0<   Francesc Altet     http://www.carabos.com/
V   V   C=E1rabos Coop. V.   Enjoy Data
 "-"

Re: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Ryan K. <rya...@gm...>]

I just realized that my "Amen" to all of this went only to Alan Isaac.
 I don't "reply-to-all" by default.

In response to Perry's comment: "I hope Travis can effectively ignore
them."  I think a spam filter with "wolf" and "sheep" might be a good
start, but it could accidentally delete some interesting "poetry"
<wink>.

Ryan

On 4/4/06, Ryan Krauss <rya...@gm...> wrote:
> Let me add my thanks and also say that as a grad student who plans to
> buy your book once I graduate, NumPy's use is not inhibited by Travis
> charging for the documentation.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ryan Krauss
>
> On 4/4/06, Alan G Isaac <ai...@am...> wrote:
> > On Tue, 04 Apr 2006, Travis Oliphant apparently wrote:
> > > I'm not going to dislike or have any kind of ill feelings
> > > with anyone who decides to spend their time on
> > > "documentation."  In fact, I'll appreciate it just like
> > > everyone else.
> >
> > Of course you were extremely clear about this from the
> > beginning.  Thank you for numpy!!!
> > Alan Isaac (grateful user of numpy)
> > PS Your book is *very* helpful.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting lang=
uage
> > that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live we=
bcast
> > and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territ=
ory!
> > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D110944&bid=3D241720&dat=
=3D121642
> > _______________________________________________
> > Numpy-discussion mailing list
> > Num...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/numpy-discussion
> >
>

Re: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Bruce S. <bso...@gm...>]

Hi,
Sorry that you received such an email. It is one thing to disagree
with your choice but it is inexcusable to dictate what you should do
with your code/documentation (not to mention the language).
Unfortunately, this appears to be the result of the typical confusion
of what 'free' refers to in open source software.

If this person thought that purchasing documentation is bad then I
wonder what they think of the PyMOL project: "If you use PyMOL at
work, then you are asked and expected to sponsor the project by
purchasing a PyMOL Subscription"  (http://www.pymol.org/funding.html)!

Really the 'book' issue is more an excuse than a real reason for
people not to use numpy. Personally I really think that you should get
the 1.0 release out that probably would change some minds. Based on
the list postings, the stability of numpy already exceeds a typical
1.0 release level.

Regards
Bruce

Re: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Ed S. <sch...@ft...>]

I'd also like to express my gratitude, Travis, for all the time and
energy you've donated to both NumPy and SciPy.  I also fully support
your decision to charge for your book.

Perhaps your correspondent expects your book to be free because it's
online.  Perhaps some re-branding -- from "fee-based documentation" to
"book" or "handbook for users and developers" -- would help to avoid
evoking such unfair responses?  Incidentally, you mention on on the site
that you'll print and bind hard-copy version once your sales reach 200
copies.  I think this would help to encourage libraries and conservative
institutions to purchase copies.  Are your sales still under this level?!

I'm now going to order a copy for my institution -- and a hard copy when
it's available :)

-- Ed

Re: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Charles R H. <cha...@gm...>]

Heh,

On 4/5/06, Ed Schofield <sch...@ft...> wrote:
<snip>

>  Perhaps some re-branding -- from "fee-based documentation" to
> "book" or "handbook for users and developers"


I think that's a great idea! "Handbook for Users and Developers" sounds muc=
h
better and doesn't have that nasty "documentation should be free"
implication.

Chuck

Re[2]: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Alan G I. <ai...@am...>]

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006, Ed Schofield apparently wrote: 
> you mention on on the site that you'll print and bind 
> hard-copy version once your sales reach 200 copies.  
> I think this would help to encourage libraries and 
> conservative institutions to purchase copies.

Unfortunately, my library falls in this category.
They were uncertain how to enforce the copyright
with an electronic copy.  (They are still thinking
about it, last I heard.)

Cheers,
Alan Isaac

Fwd: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Chris F. <fon...@gm...>]

On 4/4/06, Travis Oliphant <oli...@ee...> wrote:

>
> I received a rather hurtful email today that was very discouraging to me
> personally.  Basically, I was called "lame" and a "wolf" in sheep's
> clothing because I'm charging for documentation.


There is one in every crowd, it seems. This email, and any others like it,
should be utterly ignored, in the hopes that their authors will go elsewher=
e
for scientific computing solutions. If they had spent any time at all on
this list, they would have noticed the seemingly boundless attention and
support that Travis bestows upon both scipy and its user community.

Chris
--
Chris Fonnesbeck + Atlanta, GA + http://trichech.us

Re: [Numpy-discussion] NumPy documentation

[Robert C. <cim...@nt...>]

Travis Oliphant wrote:
> 
> I received a rather hurtful email today that was very discouraging to me 
 > ...

Coming late on line, I can just +1 to all the support and appreciation 
you have received so far!

r.