numpy-discussion

[Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Travis O. <oli...@ie...>]

I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining 
numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve, 
image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that will 
be using these modules.

Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in 
Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.

But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or, 
perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules separately?

With the numarray c_api that is now available in NumPy, these can be 
easily ported.  It would be nice to have decided this by 1.0beta release 
at the end of the week.

Discussion please...

-Travis

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Robert K. <rob...@gm...>]

Travis Oliphant wrote:
> I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining 
> numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve, 
> image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that will 
> be using these modules.
> 
> Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in 
> Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
> 
> But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or, 
> perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules separately?

I'm definitely -1 on putting them in numpy. numpy is large enough as it is. I'm 
-0 on making a standalone package. The time would be better spent on making sure 
that scipy subpackages can be downloaded, built and installed individually.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Travis O. <oli...@ie...>]

Robert Kern wrote:
> Travis Oliphant wrote:
>   
>> I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining 
>> numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve, 
>> image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that will 
>> be using these modules.
>>
>> Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in 
>> Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
>>
>> But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or, 
>> perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules separately?
>>     
>
> I'm definitely -1 on putting them in numpy. numpy is large enough as it is. I'm 
> -0 on making a standalone package. The time would be better spent on making sure 
> that scipy subpackages can be downloaded, built and installed individually.
>
>   
I think I like this idea as well.     I don't really want to grow NumPy. 
But, I'm curious what the current numarray users think.

-Travis

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Perry G. <pe...@st...>]

On Jul 18, 2006, at 3:22 PM, Travis Oliphant wrote:

> Robert Kern wrote:
>> Travis Oliphant wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining
>>> numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy  
>>> (convolve,
>>> image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray  
>>> that will
>>> be using these modules.
>>>
>>> Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in
>>> Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
>>>
>>> But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or,
>>> perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules  
>>> separately?
>>>
>>
>> I'm definitely -1 on putting them in numpy. numpy is large enough  
>> as it is. I'm
>> -0 on making a standalone package. The time would be better spent  
>> on making sure
>> that scipy subpackages can be downloaded, built and installed  
>> individually.
>>
>>
> I think I like this idea as well.     I don't really want to grow  
> NumPy.
> But, I'm curious what the current numarray users think.
>
Our view, briefly, is that until it is easy to install scipy, or that  
scipy supports  modular installs, that we need one or the other to  
support our distributions. The first choice (bundling with numpy)  
would be more convenient for us, but is not necessary should they be  
available separately. So, in short, either is fine with us.

Perry

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Sebastian H. <ha...@ms...>]

I'm using nd_image extensively. Considering that SciPy seem to install much 
easier these days than I remember I would be just happy to put them in to 
SciPy.  

Some numarray people prefer a transitional "special place". I remember that 
there was a discussion maybe a year ago of making SciPy so modular that 
(some?) sub-packages would be installable completely independent anyway - 
that would be the best :-)

-Sebastian Haase

On Tuesday 18 July 2006 12:09, Robert Kern wrote:
> Travis Oliphant wrote:
> > I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining
> > numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve,
> > image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that will
> > be using these modules.
> >
> > Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in
> > Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
> >
> > But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or,
> > perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules separately?
>
> I'm definitely -1 on putting them in numpy. numpy is large enough as it is.
> I'm -0 on making a standalone package. The time would be better spent on
> making sure that scipy subpackages can be downloaded, built and installed
> individually.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Pierre B. de R. <Pie...@so...>]

Sebastian Haase wrote:
> I'm using nd_image extensively. Considering that SciPy seem to install much 
> easier these days than I remember I would be just happy to put them in to 
> SciPy.  
>   
Well, what is the content of nd_image and image, compared to scipy.ndimage ?
> Some numarray people prefer a transitional "special place". I remember that 
> there was a discussion maybe a year ago of making SciPy so modular that 
> (some?) sub-packages would be installable completely independent anyway - 
> that would be the best :-)
>
> -Sebastian Haase
>
> On Tuesday 18 July 2006 12:09, Robert Kern wrote:
>   
>> Travis Oliphant wrote:
>>     
>>> I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining
>>> numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve,
>>> image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that will
>>> be using these modules.
>>>
>>> Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in
>>> Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
>>>
>>> But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or,
>>> perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules separately?
>>>       
>> I'm definitely -1 on putting them in numpy. numpy is large enough as it is.
>> I'm -0 on making a standalone package. The time would be better spent on
>> making sure that scipy subpackages can be downloaded, built and installed
>> individually.
>>     
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
> Numpy-discussion mailing list
> Num...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/numpy-discussion
>   

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Christopher B. <Chr...@no...>]

Robert Kern wrote:
> I'm definitely -1 on putting them in numpy. numpy is large enough as it is. I'm 
> -0 on making a standalone package. The time would be better spent on making sure 
> that scipy subpackages can be downloaded, built and installed individually.

+1

The whole SciPy installation thing is HUGE! I now I still don't use any 
of SciPy because I can't get it all built. Is it yet possible to build 
SciPy on Fedora core 4 without lots of painful machinations?

When numpy was called SciPy.core, there was a lot of talk about how 
SciPy needed to be broken up into individual packages, particularly the 
Fortran and non-Fortran ones separated. It was a good idea then, and it 
still is.

-Chris



-- 
Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
Oceanographer
                                     		
NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT         (206) 526-6959   voice
7600 Sand Point Way NE   (206) 526-6329   fax
Seattle, WA  98115       (206) 526-6317   main reception

Chr...@no...

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Perry G. <pe...@st...>]

On Jul 18, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Travis Oliphant wrote:

>
> I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining
> numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve,
> image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that  
> will
> be using these modules.
>
> Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in
> Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.

At that at the time (some years ago now), that wasn't an option for  
us for the modules that we contributed since we couldn't use Numeric.  
I'm glad that it's now possible to integrate these with numpy, but it  
doesn't do much good now to lament that it didn't happen that way in  
the past.

Perry

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Travis O. <oli...@ee...>]

Perry Greenfield wrote:

>
> On Jul 18, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Travis Oliphant wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining
>> numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve,
>> image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that  will
>> be using these modules.
>>
>> Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in
>> Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
>
>
> At that at the time (some years ago now), that wasn't an option for  
> us for the modules that we contributed since we couldn't use Numeric.  
> I'm glad that it's now possible to integrate these with numpy, but it  
> doesn't do much good now to lament that it didn't happen that way in  
> the past.


Of course.   I was just thinking aloud again.   That's the beauty of 
"organic" growth :-)  It does have it's own charm. 

-Travis

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Victoria G. L. <la...@st...>]

I'm a numarray user that relies on convolve.

I would hope that one of the criteria by which to make such decisions is 
"make the transition for numarray and numeric users as painless as 
possible". Changing namespaces and introducing additional dependencies 
is not painless. Thus unless there is a *compelling* argument to move 
them out, I would leave them in.

(From the numarray-user point of view, it would be "moving them out" 
even though they aren't there yet.)

Personally I wouldn't think that "numpy is big enough already" or "it 
fits better in scipy" to be compelling reasons. So, +1 to include them 
in numpy.


That said, personally I would argue that convolve is qualitatively 
different from image and ndimage. Convolution is a common mathematical 
operation on arrays; thus I think it belongs in numpy.


If any or all of them are not included in numpy, I would strongly prefer 
a small separate package than to put them in scipy. I try to minimize 
dependencies in my code; I really don't want to suddenly depend on all 
of scipy just so I can do a convolution!

Vicki Laidler

Travis Oliphant wrote:

>I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining 
>numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve, 
>image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that will 
>be using these modules.
>
>Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in 
>Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
>
>But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or, 
>perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules separately?
>
>With the numarray c_api that is now available in NumPy, these can be 
>easily ported.  It would be nice to have decided this by 1.0beta release 
>at the end of the week.
>
>Discussion please...
>
>-Travis
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
>opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash
>http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>_______________________________________________
>Numpy-discussion mailing list
>Num...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/numpy-discussion
>  
>

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Travis O. <oli...@ee...>]

Victoria G. Laidler wrote:

> I'm a numarray user that relies on convolve.

Thanks for voicing your opinion.

We should be clear about what we are talking about.

1) There is already a convolve in NumPy (it's the same one that was in 
Numeric).  It seems the one in numarray is compatible.


I'm talking about the following numarray functions (please let me know 
if I'm missing anything).

* all of nd_image --- currently this is in scipy (as ndimage) and can 
already be built and installed as a separate package --- we need
                                     to work out distribution, though.

* all of image/
           combine.py
                     median
                     average
                     minimum
                     threshold
           _image.py
                     translate


* from Convolve/
            iraf_frame.py
            lineshape.py
            Convolve.py/
                   correlate2d
                   convolve2d
                   boxcar
                              


For now, I will port the image and Convolve packages and place them in 
the scipy/sandbox area.  From there we can figure out what to do with them.


-Travis

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What to do about numarray extension modules?

[Peter V. <ve...@em...>]

I am the author of nd_image. In my opinion the package should remain  
in SciPy, where it indeed belongs. The only reason it was in numarray  
is that there was no such thing as SciPy for numarray.

Although it is relatively bug-free and has a reasonable amount of  
image processing functions, it could stand a lot of improvement.  
Including it in a base NumPy package would be a mistake, as it is not  
a fully optimized and finished package.

nd_image should install easily as a separate package, hence it could  
be included in SciPy while maintaining the possibility for standalone  
usage.

Peter

>
> I'd like to get suggestions about what to do about the remaining
> numarray extension modules that are not addressed in NumPy (convolve,
> image, nd_image).   There will be people coming from numarray that  
> will
> be using these modules.
>
> Of course, my opinion is that they should not have been placed in
> Numarray to begin with as the fit better as modules in SciPy.
>
> But, given the situation.  Should we bring them over to NumPy?  Or,
> perhaps provide a small package that contain these modules separately?
>
> With the numarray c_api that is now available in NumPy, these can be
> easily ported.  It would be nice to have decided this by 1.0beta  
> release
> at the end of the week.
>
> Discussion please...
>
> -Travis
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
> share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn  
> cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
> Numpy-discussion mailing list
> Num...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/numpy-discussion