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From: Gregory N. <spu...@ra...> - 2005-07-24 13:40:59
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I have a very bad habit of hitting return then continuing to think about
the email. I should not send the email until I am done thinking...
> > ... It seems to me that this *might* be something that could get us started?
>
> I think we can start anytime that you are comfortable with the direction
> and we have most any kind of development hardware in hand -- whether
> that is a custom development board or a modified 442 with JTAG. I'm
> ready to go whenever you are (after my vacation anyway).
So far we have considered:
-> Contract dual boot loader from SD (and/or USB)
-> Develop a daughter board
-> Develop SD IPL
-> Port u-boot
-> Then start the Linux port
PROs: Good development support vision, CONs: costly, time consuming.
These are all long lead items that pretty much mean nothing is going to
happen before next year.
-> Send me a JTAG emulator and 442 connection instructions.
-> I add dual boot capability and add
existing USB-based bootloader to flash
-> Then start the Linux port
PROs: quick, cheap, effective; hardware is readily available: CONs: You
lose control of the feature set (or, rather, have to back fit the
bootloader and features that you really want at a later time).
-> Find a development board that is architecturally similar to the 442
-> Then start the Linux port
PROs: possible quick start up, probable great development features.
CONs: Pricey, vendor selection could be time consuming, cost reduction
efforts are likely and could be time consuming, it might be difficult
finding a development board with matching peripherals. The temptation
to manufacture your own would be strong.
Greg
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From: Gregory N. <spu...@ra...> - 2005-07-24 13:26:36
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> ... It seems to me that this *might* be something that could get us started? I think we can start anytime that you are comfortable with the direction and we have most any kind of development hardware in hand -- whether that is a custom development board or a modified 442 with JTAG. I'm ready to go whenever you are (after my vacation anyway). Greg |
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From: Gregory N. <spu...@ra...> - 2005-07-24 13:20:04
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> It is my understanding that the spectrum digital, for example, sells a > complete development kit that includes all the tools you need to program > for the "development board." One of the engineers is going to have to > chime in on what this means, but instead of buying an emulator and the > proprietary toolkit, you get a specialized copy that only works for the > dev board, and TI uses these as sales tools for getting the TI silicon > designed in to products. It seems to me that this *might* be something > that could get us started? First, you should turn HTML messages off. Your messages are pretty mangled. Spectrum Digital makes great development boards but, in the past, these boards have been very expensive (in the $3k range). You did not specify the price of the board here but if it is in that price range, then it is too expensive for most of the world to use. I think to get good support, you would need something in the range of $100 and you could only get that kind of price by buying a reference design and doing your own production runs. Which board are referring to? Are you talking about this: http://www.spectrumdigital.com/cgi/catalog.cgi?show_product=702015 That kit is $10k. Don't forget, the develop board must also support peripherals that are very similar to the ones in the final product: Disks, flash, displays, keypads, network, USB, etc. I have a Spectrum Digital C5471 board and I love it. It has the JTAG emulator built on the board and they provide SDserver which a gdbserver work-alike that interfaces with the built-in JTAG. Then you can run GDB on you linux PC and get full source level debug with no additional hardware. I don't know if the DM270 board has something similar or not but I really like the way the C5471 EVM works (it runs $3k). Greg |
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From: Bob F. <bf...@ne...> - 2005-07-24 04:08:35
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> The more I think about it, the more I believe that if we want "advance" hardware we should do it ourselves.<br> That is the only way you will get the functionality of the A list going.<br> No other kit will have the right combination of hardware right off the bat.<br> <br> Bob<br> <br> Joe Born wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid...@na..."> <meta content="text/html; " http-equiv="Content-Type"> <meta content="MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0" name="Generator"> <title>Re: Referencing Ingenient Design and N3</title> <div dir="ltr" id="idOWAReplyText68878"> <div dir="ltr">Someone was asking on IRC while I was away about the cost of the development boards, which brings up a number of interesting questions.</div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> <div dir="ltr">for those of you who just signed up, this discussion is on the forums here:</div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> <div dir="ltr"><a target="_blank" href="/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6343"><font size="2">http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6343</font></a><font size="2">)</font></div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2">It is my understanding that the spectrum digital, for example, sells a complete development kit that includes all the tools you need to program for the "development board." One of the engineers is going to have to chime in on what this means, but instead of buying an emulator and the proprietary toolkit, you get a specialized copy that only works for the dev board, and TI uses these as sales tools for getting the TI silicon designed in to products. It seems to me that this *might* be something that could get us started?</font></div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2">Greg, Bob, thoughts?</font></div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2">Joe</font></div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> <div dir="ltr"> </div> </div> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> |
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From: Joe B. <jb...@ne...> - 2005-07-23 19:22:23
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Someone was asking on IRC while I was away about the cost of the = development boards, which brings up a number of interesting questions. =20 for those of you who just signed up, this discussion is on the forums = here: =20 http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3D6343) =20 It is my understanding that the spectrum digital, for example, sells a = complete development kit that includes all the tools you need to program = for the "development board." One of the engineers is going to have to = chime in on what this means, but instead of buying an emulator and the = proprietary toolkit, you get a specialized copy that only works for the = dev board, and TI uses these as sales tools for getting the TI silicon = designed in to products. It seems to me that this *might* be something = that could get us started? =20 Greg, Bob, thoughts? =20 Joe =20 =20 |
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From: Joe B. <jb...@ne...> - 2005-07-22 17:27:35
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well, actually we're not abandoning the OS work on the 442 for the next = generation (at least that wasn't my plan) I was expecting to migrate it = to the next gen 442 on the DM320, although that's a little ways out. =20 In any case, what are your thoughts on what this means for the immediate = with the sourceforge project, etc.? =20 Joe ________________________________ From: Gregory Nutt [mailto:spu...@ra...] Sent: Fri 7/22/2005 7:23 AM To: Joe Born Cc: Bob Faskos; Michael Gao Subject: Re: Referencing Ingenient Design and N3 Good morning, There are several mixed topics in this email, but I think there is a theme, something like: "How do we create an open source firmware base while simultaneously fielding new and competitive products." If you invest heavily in open source, then you risk the next generation of products. If you make the best business decisions for future products, you make be cutting off open source solutions. And if you try to compromise these objectives, it is likely that both efforts will suffer. It seems to me that the only winning option is to decouple these efforts: make your best business decisions without regard for open source support; support the open source effort without regard for specific future products. Now, hopefully, at some time these efforts can merge. It would be good to have a roadmap where you can see that product C derives from product B which was based on product A. If we do open source development on the 442, you would like to see have a roadmap for how that work folds into the follow-on. But I think you have already discounted that -- the 442 follow-on is not based on the open source effort -- you have to make that decision because of time, money and market constraints. Besides providing a superior development environment, development boards can lie outside of the product family tree. If the open source development is successful, the develop boards can be productized at any time but they never jeopardize your product decisions. It could be an R&D investment outside of (but parallel to) your product development costs. The main problem with development boards is that they are very pricey in quantities of one and they are not easily available for many people. Perhaps funding a production run of some cheap development boards would be an incentive? Do you remember the whole culture that developed around the TuxScreen phones? http://www.tuxscreen.net/ That was a fascinating project. I understand that a major phone manufacturer decided against bringing this phone to market; so for a long time, you could by a TuxScreen phone for $99 (I have one). They developed a kernel and many embedded technologies that are in common use today. They also developed some $10 hardware to download code over JTAG. Very innovative -- but now very dated. Code Poet, Inc. was closely associated with the early TuxScreen work. They went on to develop uClibc, busybox, tinylogin, buildroot -- they have defined what we mean when we say embedded Linux. So having a cheap reference board could have a substantial impact; an expensive development board would probably not be successful. Greg On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 23:42 -0500, Joe Born wrote: > Given all the discussion regarding licensing Ingenient's reference > design, we should swing back and figure out how that changes things. > > In a previous email, Greg, you said something like porting a throwaway > Linux wouldn't be attractive and I think that makes sense. I also > gather that even if we license Ingenient's reference design, we'll = need > help making it work and setting it up on Sourceforge, isn't that > correct? > > By the way, I've also floated your idea about using a reference board = to > help us recruit developers, etc. I repurposed that idea for the = Neuros > 3 (our audio focused device). As you might know, we've decided to > develop the N3 based on Linux on the DM320.=20 > > (see open.neurostechnology.com and > http://www.neurosaudio.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3D6343) = I > expect folks will embrace that idea. The main things we'll have to do > is convince them that we're committed to it. I think doing an > industrial design for the device and putting up a schedule would go a > long way. > > Joe > ------------------------------------------------------------ Mail was checked for spam by the Freeware Edition of No Spam Today! The Freeware Edition is free for personal and non-commercial use. You can remove this notice by purchasing a full license! To order or to find out more please visit: http://www.no-spam-today.com |
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From: Joe B. <jb...@ne...> - 2005-07-22 03:08:30
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Hello to You! -----Original Message----- From: neu...@li... [mailto:neu...@li...] On Behalf Of Joe Born Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:07 PM To: Neu...@li... Subject: [Neuros 442 Linux Main] Hello World! =09 =09 =20 =20 Joe Born Neuros Audio, LLC =09 *************************************** NEW INFORMATION 650 W. Lake St. #330 Chicago, IL 60661 312-756-0061x10 voice *************************************** =09 jb...@ne... 847-732-4200 mobile 847-589-1214 direct fax 86-136-40134556 China Mobile 852-9557-1904 Hong Kong Mobile =09 =09 =09 =09 =20 |
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From: Joe B. <jb...@ne...> - 2005-07-22 03:06:38
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=20 =20 Joe Born Neuros Audio, LLC *************************************** NEW INFORMATION 650 W. Lake St. #330 Chicago, IL 60661 312-756-0061x10 voice *************************************** jb...@ne... 847-732-4200 mobile 847-589-1214 direct fax 86-136-40134556 China Mobile 852-9557-1904 Hong Kong Mobile =20 |