module-build-general

[Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Randy W. S. <Ra...@Th...>]

I don't know what to do.

I used to keep a list of todo items in my Treo. I have all kinds of 
stuff in there: some esoteric, some important. Sometimes I'll be working 
on something and think of something to check out later, so I'll jot down 
a note. Some stuff is just wishlist, fantasy stuff. But most of it is 
important stuff for this and the next couple releases.

The reason I haven't put it in RT or similar is that there is some stuff 
that just don't belong, some of it is just notes to myself, and it 
seemed to make sense to separate my todo from general user todo items.

But my Treo is falling apart after only an year and half of use (no more 
Treos, maybe RIM?), so I moved everything into an old fashioned 6"x9" 
notepad a couple months ago.

Now I've lost it.

It should be at home, in my car, or at the office, but I haven't found 
it yet after a week of looking. I can recover from the loss, though I'm 
still sure it'll turn up unless someone snatched it for their own use.

Anyway, what I was wondering is would it make sense to set up a tiny 
little wiki or something that could be used as a developer's notebook? 
It could be private or public, but I'll warn that some things I note 
down are best ignored. It would be nice to have it where others can 
review, notably Ken, so they can comment on items or leave answers to 
some of the questions I jot down that I haven't had a chance to look up.

The mailing-list is good for some of that, but it's hard to use as a 
reference. A wiki seems perfect for this type of thing.

If nothing else, I could try to set one up on my site, but I think 
Earthlink only has perl 5.004. I really need to find another host.

Other ideas?

BTW, this is not for right now. Sometime after 0.28.

Randy.

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Ron S. <ro...@sa...>]

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:55:39 -0400, Randy W. Sims wrote:

Hi Randy

> Other ideas?

What you /really/ want is the definitive way of organizing ideas: TreePad:

http://www.treepad.com/

OK, so it's not web-based...
-- 
Cheers
Ron Savage, ro...@sa... on 8/04/2006
http://savage.net.au/index.html
Let the record show: Microsoft is not an Australian company

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Johan V. <jvr...@sq...>]

Ron Savage <ro...@sa...> writes:

> http://www.treepad.com/
> OK, so it's not web-based...

Windows only, not Open Source, no thanks.

-- Johan

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Ron S. <ro...@sa...>]

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 11:10:59 +0200, Johan Vromans wrote:

Hi Johan

>> http://www.treepad.com/
>> OK, so it's not web-based...
>>
> Windows only, not Open Source, no thanks.

I understand you preference, and also agree (almost :-), but:

o There /is/ a Linux version

o There is a /freeware/ version

You just reacted too quickly to read the info carefully.

-- 
Cheers
Ron Savage, ro...@sa... on 9/04/2006
http://savage.net.au/index.html
Let the record show: Microsoft is not an Australian company

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Johan V. <jvr...@sq...>]

Ron Savage <ro...@sa...> writes:

> You just reacted too quickly to read the info carefully.

I feel ashamed.
My usual approach is to hit the download button to see if there's a
linux version and/or source available. Looking at the web site I
cannot figure out how I missed these yesterday.
I must be getting old...

Sorry for the confusion.

-- Johan

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Johan V. <jvr...@sq...>]

Ron Savage <ro...@sa...> writes:

> o There /is/ a Linux version
> o There is a /freeware/ version

I downloaded it and gave it a try:

  $ cd /home/jv/tmp
  $ tar -zxvf tplitelx_complete.tar.gz
  BasicManual.html
  TreePadLiteLX
  $ ./TreePadLiteLX 
  cd /home/jv
  Runtime error 230 at 08068F45
  /home/jv/tmp/TreePadLiteLX/cach/TreePadLiteLX-s: line 8:   698 Segmentation fault      $ex "$@"
  Created with InstallMade, sup...@fr... Freebyte.com
  All Rights Reserved, SuperObject Software Solutions

Not only does it crash, it also wiped out itself (replaced the binary
by a directory). Smart.

Retry (moving the binary first):

  $ rm -fr TreePadLiteLX
  $ tar -zxvf tplitelx_complete.tar.gz
  BasicManual.html
  TreePadLiteLX
  $ mv TreePadLiteLX tp
  $ ./tp
  cd /home/jv
  Runtime error 230 at 08068F45
  /home/jv/tmp/TreePadLiteLX/cach/TreePadLiteLX-s: line 8:   698 Segmentation fault      $ex "$@"
  Created with InstallMade, sup...@fr... Freebyte.com
  All Rights Reserved, SuperObject Software Solutions

No difference.
If it were open source, I could take a look. Now I'm stuk.

(But this is getting off-topic, I guess)

-- Johan

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Nadim K. <na...@kh...>]

On Sunday 09 April 2006 13.29, Johan Vromans wrote:
> Ron Savage <ro...@sa...> writes:
> > o There /is/ a Linux version
> > o There is a /freeware/ version
>
> I downloaded it and gave it a try:
>
> ...
> 
> No difference.
> If it were open source, I could take a look. Now I'm stuk.

I have no solution to that problem except recommending to install something 
else. I'm all linux so I can't recommend any windows app (nor would I want 
to) nor any platform independent.

there is 'basket': http://basket.kde.org/

tuxcards: http://www.tuxcards.de/

knowit: http://knowit.sourceforge.net/index.html

and last but absolutely not least, zim, the desktop wiki: 
http://zoidberg.student.utwente.nl/zim/docs/zim/faq.html

Cheers, Nadim.

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Johan V. <jvr...@sq...>]

Nadim Khemir <na...@kh...> writes:

> there is 'basket': http://basket.kde.org/

Cute.

> tuxcards: http://www.tuxcards.de/

Doesn't compile.

> knowit: http://knowit.sourceforge.net/index.html

404

> and last but absolutely not least, zim, the desktop wiki: 
> http://zoidberg.student.utwente.nl/zim/docs/zim/faq.html

Being a Perl addict, this is the perfect answer.
(And it uses Module::Build for building, nice...)

Thanks for the suggestions.

-- Johan

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Julian M. <ju...@me...>]

Johan Vromans wrote:
> Nadim Khemir <na...@kh...> writes:
> > knowit: http://knowit.sourceforge.net/index.html
>
> 404

Have you tried omitting the "/index.html" part?

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Nadim K. <na...@kh...>]

On Monday 10 April 2006 17.05, Johan Vromans wrote:
> > tuxcards: http://www.tuxcards.de/
>
> Doesn't compile.
the attach screenshot says otherwise

> > knowit: http://knowit.sourceforge.net/index.html
> 404
Sorry: http://knowit.sourceforge.net/

>
> > and last but absolutely not least, zim, the desktop wiki:
> > http://zoidberg.student.utwente.nl/zim/docs/zim/faq.html
>
> Being a Perl addict, this is the perfect answer.
> (And it uses Module::Build for building, nice...)
I'm having a mail discussion with Jaap and he's definitely into making zIm 
better. He like the idea of having a the possibility to have an on line/off 
line mode.

Drop him a line, it's always nice to know when other use your software or want 
to make it better (you're all welcome to try my build system by the way ;)


> Thanks for the suggestions.
welcome, Nadim.

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Jaap K. <j.g...@st...>]

Nadim Khemir wrote:
.. 8< ..
> I'm having a mail discussion with Jaap and he's definitely into making zIm 
> better. He like the idea of having a the possibility to have an on line/off 
> line mode.
> 
> Drop him a line, it's always nice to know when other use your software or want 
> to make it better (you're all welcome to try my build system by the way ;)
. 8< ..

Already read the thread, I'm a long time sleeper on this list :)

Bit off topic on this list so if anyone has suggestions for improvement 
(or just installation trouble) please mail me personally.

-- Jaap Karssenberg <pa...@cp...>

P.S. Johan maybe see you at A'dam.pm sometime this spring.

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[David G. <da...@hy...>]

Randy W. Sims wrote:
> The mailing-list is good for some of that, but it's hard to use as a 
> reference. A wiki seems perfect for this type of thing.
> 
> If nothing else, I could try to set one up on my site, but I think 
> Earthlink only has perl 5.004. I really need to find another host.

I've had similar questions about what to do.  I currently keep a lot of 
my "organized" todo lists in a program called LifeBalance 
(http://www.llamagraphics.com/) that syncs between my laptop and my treo 
phone.

I also keep a Moleskine square-ruled pocket notebook 
(http://www.moleskine.co.uk/styles/) for more random jottings.  I wind 
up doing a lot of brainstorming on the subway and use that to jot ideas 
down.  A friend turned me onto it as a gift and I was skeptical at 
first, because I've never been one to keep a journal, but it's small 
enough to fit in the back pocket of jeans or a jacket pocket.  I get my 
replacements at Barnes & Noble.  Many of my recent modules 
(Class::InsideOut, File::pushd, ToolSet) were pretty much sketched out 
in first-draft form in it on the subway earlier this year.

I've thought about using a wiki from time to time, but I'm often on the 
road with no net access -- until I find/write a wiki that works 
replicates between online/offline mode (say, using SVK/subversion as a 
back-end) I don't know that that will work for me.

If I didn't travel as much, I'd consider some of the web-based solutions 
like Voo2do or some of the 37Signals stuff. (http://www.37signals.com/ 
and http://voo2do.com/)

As for hosting, the catalyst web site has some suggestions that seem 
relatively perl-friendly.

Regards,
David Golden

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Ken W. <ke...@ma...>]

On Apr 7, 2006, at 11:12 PM, David Golden wrote:

> I also keep a Moleskine square-ruled pocket notebook (http:// 
> www.moleskine.co.uk/styles/) for more random jottings.  I wind up  
> doing a lot of brainstorming on the subway and use that to jot  
> ideas down.  A friend turned me onto it as a gift and I was  
> skeptical at first, because I've never been one to keep a journal,  
> but it's small enough to fit in the back pocket of jeans or a  
> jacket pocket.  I get my replacements at Barnes & Noble.  Many of  
> my recent modules (Class::InsideOut, File::pushd, ToolSet) were  
> pretty much sketched out in first-draft form in it on the subway  
> earlier this year.

That's pretty awesome, thanks for mentioning it.  I've been in the  
market for a pocket-sized blank book for about 2 years, but I haven't  
found one I like.  I'm actually looking for one about half the size  
of the Moleskine ones (about 5cm x 7cm) with a nice non-spiral  
binding for my *front* pocket.  But I bought the 13cm x 21cm one for  
notes for a probability study group I'm leading at work.

I might have to join http://www.mnbookarts.org/ and make my own small  
book. =)

  -Ken

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[demerphq <dem...@gm...>]

On 4/10/06, Ken Williams <ke...@ma...> wrote:
>
> On Apr 7, 2006, at 11:12 PM, David Golden wrote:
>
> > I also keep a Moleskine square-ruled pocket notebook (http://
> > www.moleskine.co.uk/styles/) for more random jottings.  I wind up
> > doing a lot of brainstorming on the subway and use that to jot
> > ideas down.  A friend turned me onto it as a gift and I was
> > skeptical at first, because I've never been one to keep a journal,
> > but it's small enough to fit in the back pocket of jeans or a
> > jacket pocket.  I get my replacements at Barnes & Noble.  Many of
> > my recent modules (Class::InsideOut, File::pushd, ToolSet) were
> > pretty much sketched out in first-draft form in it on the subway
> > earlier this year.
>
> That's pretty awesome, thanks for mentioning it.  I've been in the
> market for a pocket-sized blank book for about 2 years, but I haven't
> found one I like.  I'm actually looking for one about half the size
> of the Moleskine ones (about 5cm x 7cm) with a nice non-spiral
> binding for my *front* pocket.  But I bought the 13cm x 21cm one for
> notes for a probability study group I'm leading at work.
>
> I might have to join http://www.mnbookarts.org/ and make my own small
> book. =3D)

I too got my first Moleskine this weekend. Actually my GF and I bought seve=
ral.

Thanks David. :-)

Yves


--
perl -Mre=3Ddebug -e "/just|another|perl|hacker/"

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[David G. <da...@hy...>]

demerphq wrote:
> On 4/10/06, Ken Williams <ke...@ma...> wrote:
>> That's pretty awesome, thanks for mentioning it.  I've been in the
>> market for a pocket-sized blank book for about 2 years, but I haven't
>> found one I like.  I'm actually looking for one about half the size
>> of the Moleskine ones (about 5cm x 7cm) with a nice non-spiral
>> binding for my *front* pocket.  But I bought the 13cm x 21cm one for
>> notes for a probability study group I'm leading at work.
>>
>> I might have to join http://www.mnbookarts.org/ and make my own small
>> book. =)
> 
> I too got my first Moleskine this weekend. Actually my GF and I bought several.
> 
> Thanks David. :-)

Eeek.  Sorry for perpetuating this way-off-topic thread, but here's a 
tip on using it:

On advice of my friend -- and it works -- if you haven't written in it 
yet, reserve the first 8 pages as a table of contents.  I number 1-25, 
26-50, etc. up to 192.  As I add stuff, I number and date pages in the 
top corner, add a title on top and make a note in the TOC.  It makes it 
really easy to find stuff later.  Maybe I'll post a picture somewhere.

And make sure you use a waterproof pen!  (I like the Uniball Deluxe 
Micro -- the flat clip slips perfectly into the binding for easy storage 
and ready access.)

Regards,
David Golden

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Johan V. <jvr...@sq...>]

"Randy W. Sims" <Ra...@Th...> writes:

> But my Treo is falling apart after only an year and half of use (no
> more Treos, maybe RIM?), ... Now I've lost it.

You do have a backup, don't you? Anyone with a Treo compatible PDA
could help you restore it...

-- Johan

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Randy W. S. <ml...@th...>]

Johan Vromans wrote:
> "Randy W. Sims" <Ra...@Th...> writes:
> 
> 
>>But my Treo is falling apart after only an year and half of use (no
>>more Treos, maybe RIM?), ... Now I've lost it.
> 
> 
> You do have a backup, don't you? Anyone with a Treo compatible PDA
> could help you restore it...

I haven't lost anything from my Treo; I still have it. (I would rather 
have lost it though.) It's the notebook that I lost, and it had a couple 
of months of notes in it which I'm now missing. =(

Randy.

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Nadim K. <na...@kh...>]

On Saturday 08 April 2006 02.55, Randy W. Sims wrote:
> I don't know what to do.
> ...
> The mailing-list is good for some of that, but it's hard to use as a
> reference. A wiki seems perfect for this type of thing.

I've use a wiki to put down idea etc before and it worked fine. We've just 
starting using a wiki and an IRC channel for the next version of our build 
system and it works nice (well I would like the others to use it more but 
they like throwing ideas up and let me write them down)

I've spend a week-end looking around at what to use. I recommend 'dokuwiki'. 
Kwiki is unfortunately completely unusable because of it's speed. I use 
gentoo and everything installed in 5 mn. It's very complete too.

A wiki is not the siver bullet, one area that no wiki is good at is 
reorganising pages.

I agree RT would have been nice but it is not good enough, It's difficult to 
organise things hierarchically and the visual part is not as attractive as a 
wiki. The RT on CPAN is also too slow.

> If nothing else, I could try to set one up on my site, but I think
> Earthlink only has perl 5.004. I really need to find another host.
Or run your own server. Maybe someone would put up a wiki for M::B whith a 
"private" area.


Cheers, Nadim.

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Eric W. <scr...@gm...>]

# from Nadim Khemir
# on Saturday 08 April 2006 07:58 am:

>A wiki is not the siver bullet, one area that no wiki is good at is
>reorganising pages.

There's also the "type your page in this small box" syndrome, and the 
troubles with unauthenticated access leading to viagrification, on top 
of the aforementioned issue of not having offline access.

I'm thinking that a wiki that could be backended with a pile of YAML 
files in a subversion repository would be great.

  o publicly visible info
  o quick access via web terminals
  o offline mode ($svk++)
  o ability to make edits from an editor
    (aka:  your development environment)

For me at least, the headspace shift of having to open a browser, load a 
page, login, etc. is enough to cause me to forget whatever it was that 
I was going to post.

True, this doesn't solve the big todo-list problem, which is mostly that 
it is difficult to decide where to categorize something and/or how 
important it is.  It does add another "view" of the information, 
without strapping you into a silly web interface for adding quick notes 
or editing multiple pages.

It also probably doesn't work too well as a general-purpose wiki, though 
I suppose it is possible to add some mark(down|up) to it.

Basically, just a one-file per page like so:

----
  # make_todo_wiki.yml
  ---
  title: Make a TODO Wiki
  tags:
    - wiki
    - todo
    - web 2.0
  content: |
    I'm thinking that a wiki that could be backended with a pile of YAML
    files in a subversion repository would be great.
  
      o publicly visible info
      o quick access via web terminals
      o offline mode ($svk++)
      o ability to make edits from an editor
        (aka:  your development environment)
----

It seems that the necessary components are already available?  Add glue, 
server, and documentation?

--Eric
-- 
Issues of control, repair, improvement, cost, or just plain
understandability all come down strongly in favor of open source
solutions to complex problems of any sort.
--Robert G. Brown
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Nadim K. <na...@kh...>]

Hi, 
On Saturday 08 April 2006 18.10, Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> # on Saturday 08 April 2006 07:58 am:
> >A wiki is not the siver bullet, one area that no wiki is good at is
> >reorganising pages.
>
> There's also the "type your page in this small box" syndrome, 
dokuwiki allows you to make the box smaller or bigger and a few other things 
like run you own php code to do what you please

> and the 
> troubles with unauthenticated access leading to viagrification,
most wikis have access control now.

> on top  of the aforementioned issue of not having offline access.
well, for few pages, use a local wiki that has the same markup as you "global" 
wiki. just synch by hand when online. If you modify a page that might be 
modified by someone else while you are editing offline, a simple scrap script 
and a kdiff3 session should fix that

> I'm thinking that a wiki that could be backended with a pile of YAML
> files in a subversion repository would be great.
>
>   o publicly visible info
>   o quick access via web terminals
>   o offline mode ($svk++)
I agree on this one, though svk is not what I would call stable.

>   o ability to make edits from an editor
>     (aka:  your development environment)
I agree on this one too


you want to have a look at this one http://wikipediafs.sourceforge.net

and this one http://nedko.arnaudov.name/soft/wikifs/wikifuse.py


>
> For me at least, the headspace shift of having to open a browser, load a
> page, login, etc. is enough to cause me to forget whatever it was that
> I was going to post.
arf!! make a short link to the page and let your browser remember your 
password. I'm more lazy than you are, don't try to prove the opposit  you'll 
loose, and I manage to use a wiki.

Cheers, Nadim

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Eric W. <scr...@gm...>]

# from Nadim Khemir
# on Saturday 08 April 2006 11:40 am:

>you want to have a look at this one http://wikipediafs.sourceforge.net
>and this one http://nedko.arnaudov.name/soft/wikifs/wikifuse.py

Interesting, but the kernel module requirement means it won't work for 
all of the developers.  Yes, I suppose that the subversion server could 
connect this way, but that seems like a layer of glue that isn't 
needed.  The svn commit and conflict resolution model is fairly 
straightforward already.

>> For me at least, the headspace shift of having to open a browser,
>> load a page, login, etc. is enough to cause me to forget whatever it
>> was that I was going to post.
>
>arf!! make a short link to the page and let your browser remember

Yeah, there's also openid.  It's still a context shift and lacks the 
finger-feel of vim.  Then there is the page load time (even on dsl 
there is at least some latency.)  You might win the laziness contest, 
but don't get into an impatience joust with me :-)

(snipping out-of order)

>>   o offline mode ($svk++)
>I agree on this one, though svk is not what I would call stable.

You can sort of use svn offline.  The svk thing is just a bonus.  I 
haven't had any stability issues with it either.

>>   o ability to make edits from an editor
>>     (aka:  your development environment)
>I agree on this one too

So, are you agreeing with me and just deriding my bookmarking skills or 
what?  :-)

Seriously, I seem to remember something about kwiki having a nice plugin 
mechanism, but I have yet to look into it and the mention of kwiki 
seems to make some people grimace.  Maybe wifty would be nifty.

--Eric
-- 
"But as to modern architecture, let us drop it and let us take
modernistic out and shoot it at sunrise."
--F.L. Wright
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Nadim K. <na...@kh...>]

On Saturday 08 April 2006 21.03, Eric Wilhelm wrote:

> >>   o offline mode ($svk++)
> >I agree on this one, though svk is not what I would call stable.
>
> You can sort of use svn offline.  The svk thing is just a bonus.  I
> haven't had any stability issues with it either.

Well I have send an error report to their mailling list. I don't appreciate 
when a CM tool deletes files that are not under CM control. It whiped my dev 
directory in one shot.

> >>   o ability to make edits from an editor
> >>     (aka:  your development environment)
> So, are you agreeing with me and just deriding my bookmarking skills or
> what?  :-)
I agree but I think you have no bookmarking skills =)

> Seriously, I seem to remember something about kwiki having a nice plugin
> mechanism, but I have yet to look into it and the mention of kwiki
> seems to make some people grimace.  Maybe wifty would be nifty.
Kwiki is, IMHO, broken. 5 sec to load an empty page from a server running on 
the same box is just not acceptable.

The one important thing, if you are going to write anything, is to handle page 
moving and keep the links in synch.

Cheers, Nadim.

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Ken W. <ke...@ma...>]

On Apr 7, 2006, at 7:55 PM, Randy W. Sims wrote:

> Anyway, what I was wondering is would it make sense to set up a  
> tiny little wiki or something that could be used as a developer's  
> notebook? It could be private or public, but I'll warn that some  
> things I note down are best ignored. It would be nice to have it  
> where others can review, notably Ken, so they can comment on items  
> or leave answers to some of the questions I jot down that I haven't  
> had a chance to look up.

As for M::B, my usual M.O. is to use the "read" status flag on my  
inbox, and the tickets in RT, as my issue list.  That means things  
slip through the cracks when I accidentally change my mailbox flags  
and don't respond, or don't solve the requested issue.  Luckily that  
never happens in RT, but then I have to go look at the RT queue...

My actual dream in this area is to develop an "argumentative  
framework" system, which people could use to explicitly structure a  
conversation about issues that are open for discussion among a group  
of people.  But my chances of getting that built anytime soon are  
approximately nil. =)

The only reservation I'd have about a wiki would be that it would  
dilute the mailing list and RT, so that now there'd be three places  
to look instead of two.  But that may not be a very serious problem  
if it brings tangible benefits.  And it would also be nice to let  
people use the wiki for cookbook-like postings.

  -Ken

Re: [Module::Build] What to do? What to do?

[Eric W. <scr...@gm...>]

# from Ken Williams
# on Monday 10 April 2006 10:08 am:

>The only reservation I'd have about a wiki would be that it would =A0
>dilute the mailing list and RT, so that now there'd be three places =A0
>to look instead of two. =A0But that may not be a very serious problem =A0
>if it brings tangible benefits. =A0And it would also be nice to let =A0
>people use the wiki for cookbook-like postings.

Maybe BP is heading in the direction of integrating these three forums=20
with Jifty?  I think they each serve a particular purpose.

  RT - bugs and coherent (i.e. with tests or patches) feature requests
  ML - ongoing discussions
  Wiki - persistent, somewhat organized, collaborative store of data

Most people are comfortable with their existing mail client and most of=20
those clients have the "offline mode" issue solved (sorry google, gmail=20
is not the way of the future.)

The "everybody has a browser" syndrome doesn't really cut it for me. =20
IMO, most BUI interfaces are somehow crippled compared to what can be=20
done with a desktop client.  Besides the obvious limitation of an=20
offline mode, the fact is that javascript just won't get you *good*=20
cross-browser keyboard shortcuts.  Also, expecting the data to be on=20
the server makes it difficult for anyone to really try a new idea.  I=20
guess you can say I'm holding out for web 3.0 where we realize that=20
network-connected desktop clients are a good thing :-)

To come to a point, maybe something like zim could handle the RT/Wiki=20
aspects.  What's needed is distributed backends to RT and a wiki.  To=20
me, that says that both need to cut ties to the SQL DB, but that's just=20
a guess at a low-level detail.

What should the M::B team do in the meantime?

=2D-Eric
=2D-=20
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    http://scratchcomputing.com
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