From: Stewart C. R. <sc...@gm...> - 2012-11-03 17:59:32
|
Hi, I want to set up a simple HA system; mostly just lighting. I'm confused about which technology to use. X10, though inexpensive, seems like it's nearing end of life. Insteon, while addressing some of X10's shortcomings, seems very pricey. Here's what I'd like to do: * control about five outlets for lights * control aquarium lights * have at least one interior light controlled by a motion detector * all lights are fluorescent or LED * I'd be controlling this from a Raspberry Pi I'm comfortable using Perl and Linux; been using both since the mid-90s. Both technologies are definitely capable of meeting these simple needs, but, if you were starting today, which would you go with, please? cheers / 73, Stewart / VA3PID Toronto |
From: Joel D. <jr...@pr...> - 2012-11-03 18:18:51
|
Hi Stewart- Welcome to the fray. If you want to get started inexpensively, x10 may be the way to go. With some attention to detail, such as the occasional filter or phase coupler, it can be very reliable. I've found that the non-x10usa branded products tend to be more robust and reliable over time, though they are more expensive than what you can get from x10.com. If you're going to be controlling any mission-critical things, such as aquarium heaters, hvac systems, etc, then something like Insteon with its feedback and retry capability would likely be better. I've been using x10 for more than 20 years, and have very few issues. Just an occasionally missed code, but that's about it. I'm sure some folks here can provide you with horror stories... Hope that helps some. Joel -- Joel Davidson Austin, TX On Sat, 3 Nov 2012, it would appear that Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Hi, > > I want to set up a simple HA system; mostly just lighting. I'm confused > about which technology to use. X10, though inexpensive, seems like it's > nearing end of life. Insteon, while addressing some of X10's > shortcomings, seems very pricey. > > Here's what I'd like to do: > * control about five outlets for lights > * control aquarium lights > * have at least one interior light controlled by a motion detector > * all lights are fluorescent or LED > * I'd be controlling this from a Raspberry Pi > > I'm comfortable using Perl and Linux; been using both since the mid-90s. > > Both technologies are definitely capable of meeting these simple needs, > but, if you were starting today, which would you go with, please? > > cheers / 73, > Stewart / VA3PID > Toronto |
From: Marc M. <ma...@me...> - 2012-11-03 19:40:00
|
On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 01:59:25PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > Hi, > > I want to set up a simple HA system; mostly just lighting. I'm confused > about which technology to use. X10, though inexpensive, seems like it's > nearing end of life. Insteon, while addressing some of X10's > shortcomings, seems very pricey. > > Here's what I'd like to do: > * control about five outlets for lights > * control aquarium lights > * have at least one interior light controlled by a motion detector > * all lights are fluorescent or LED > * I'd be controlling this from a Raspberry Pi I used to use X10, it mostly works, but the mostly drove me crazy. The biggest problem is tha tyou cannot verify that a command went through and that's a big deal for me. Unless you are a starving student, go insteon. Look for discount insteon modules on ebay or other places like that if you'd like. Mind you, I still use X10 for a few things that do not need to work. If you go insteon, you can still use X10 commands and X10 appliance plugs for stuff that really doesn't matter. Marc -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ |
From: Eloy P. <pe...@ch...> - 2012-11-04 00:13:41
|
On 11/03/2012 03:39 PM, Marc MERLIN wrote: [...] > Unless you are a starving student, go insteon. Look for discount insteon > modules on ebay or other places like that if you'd like. If you go with INSTEON then wait until Smarthome has one of their big sales since you can save some money. I think I've saved up to 30% when I've bought their stuff on sale. During the Thanksgiving holiday they usually have good offers. Cheers, Eloy Paris.- |
From: John D. <jo...@du...> - 2012-11-03 22:30:15
|
Hi, I have used x10 successfully for all my MH 120 Vac stuff. Invest in solid phase coupler ( I use the type that plus in the dryer) and a couple of filters for noisy electronics - I found USPs to be the worst. John -----Original Message----- From: "Stewart C. Russell" <sc...@gm...> Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 13:59:25 To: <mis...@li...> Reply-To: The main list for the MisterHouse home automation program <mis...@li...> Subject: [mh] Which hardware for a new setup: X10, or Insteon? Hi, I want to set up a simple HA system; mostly just lighting. I'm confused about which technology to use. X10, though inexpensive, seems like it's nearing end of life. Insteon, while addressing some of X10's shortcomings, seems very pricey. Here's what I'd like to do: * control about five outlets for lights * control aquarium lights * have at least one interior light controlled by a motion detector * all lights are fluorescent or LED * I'd be controlling this from a Raspberry Pi I'm comfortable using Perl and Linux; been using both since the mid-90s. Both technologies are definitely capable of meeting these simple needs, but, if you were starting today, which would you go with, please? cheers / 73, Stewart / VA3PID Toronto ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from this list, go to: http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1365 |
From: Marc M. <ma...@me...> - 2012-11-03 22:32:05
|
On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 10:30:05PM +0000, John Dunlop wrote: > Hi, > > I have used x10 successfully for all my MH 120 Vac stuff. Invest in solid phase coupler ( I use the type that plus in the dryer) and a couple of filters for noisy electronics - I found USPs to be the worst. That's correct. Also, if you use CFL light bulbs, or dimmers, you are likely in trouble. Marc -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ |
From: Stewart C. R. <sc...@gm...> - 2012-11-04 01:34:31
|
On 03-11-12 18:31 , Marc MERLIN wrote: > > That's correct. Also, if you use CFL light bulbs, or dimmers, you are likely > in trouble. Wait, what? I think I have one non-CFL bulb in the house. Been using them since the Philips SLs were the thing in the 80s. Also, every (non-laptop) has a UPS. You mean to say that Insteon gets all bent out of shape with standard lighting and appliances? cheers, Stewart |
From: Marc M. <ma...@me...> - 2012-11-04 02:03:15
|
On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 09:34:24PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > On 03-11-12 18:31 , Marc MERLIN wrote: > > > > That's correct. Also, if you use CFL light bulbs, or dimmers, you are likely > > in trouble. > > Wait, what? I think I have one non-CFL bulb in the house. Been using > them since the Philips SLs were the thing in the 80s. Also, every I should have been more precise. If you use on/off switches, you're ok. If you use dimmers with CFLs, it'll throw a lot of noise on your power bus. > (non-laptop) has a UPS. You mean to say that Insteon gets all bent out > of shape with standard lighting and appliances? Just like X10, it is subject to line noise, yes. However, it will retry 3 times (or more) and knows whether the message got there. It can also query the remote device. Standard X10 can do none of that. Marc -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ |
From: Jim S. <ji...@se...> - 2012-11-04 02:22:47
|
Most of the x10 lamp modules, and dimmable wall switches, are pretty much incompatible with Fluorescent and LED lighting. The appliance modules are fine but have a relatively loud click when activated. The lamp module local "sense" feature sends a very low current through the lamp circuit expecting it to pass through an incandescent bulb and be too low of current to be visible. (The feature is if you operate the lamps switch off, on it will locally respond by turning the light on - of course the remote system would not be aware of that) The dimmable wall switches are designed to work on a 2 wire circuit (e.g. when a line runs from a ceiling lamp to the switch and interrupts the "hot" to the lamp and no neutral is present) - again in order to listen for X10 signals and get enough power to operate in the off mode the circuit leaks some current through the circuit which is too small to light an incandescent bulb. So that design worked well in the 1970s, 80s and into the 90s until electronic ballest CFL bulbs came about, and LED lights where the electronics and convert even that small current at 117 volts into something that will drive the CFL (it tends to flash rarely) - but hastens premature burn out of the CFL, and in the LED case they tend to "twinkle" under the low power. -----Original Message----- From: Stewart C. Russell [mailto:sc...@gm...] Sent: November-03-12 1:59 PM To: mis...@li... Subject: [mh] Which hardware for a new setup: X10, or Insteon? Hi, I want to set up a simple HA system; mostly just lighting. I'm confused about which technology to use. X10, though inexpensive, seems like it's nearing end of life. Insteon, while addressing some of X10's shortcomings, seems very pricey. Here's what I'd like to do: * control about five outlets for lights * control aquarium lights * have at least one interior light controlled by a motion detector * all lights are fluorescent or LED * I'd be controlling this from a Raspberry Pi I'm comfortable using Perl and Linux; been using both since the mid-90s. Both technologies are definitely capable of meeting these simple needs, but, if you were starting today, which would you go with, please? cheers / 73, Stewart / VA3PID Toronto ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- LogMeIn Central: Instant, anywhere, Remote PC access and management. Stay in control, update software, and manage PCs from one command center Diagnose problems and improve visibility into emerging IT issues Automate, monitor and manage. Do more in less time with Central http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein12331_d2d ________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from this list, go to: http://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=1365 |
From: Eloy P. <pe...@ch...> - 2012-11-04 14:06:24
|
On 11/03/2012 09:52 PM, Jim Serack wrote: > Most of the x10 lamp modules, and dimmable wall switches, are pretty much > incompatible with Fluorescent and LED lighting. > The appliance modules are fine but have a relatively loud click when > activated. I have several INSTEON on/off light switches and the relay click when activated is not loud. You do hear the click but it's very very reasonable. Cheers, Eloy Paris.- |
From: Eloy P. <pe...@ch...> - 2012-11-04 14:17:05
|
On 11/03/2012 10:03 PM, Marc MERLIN wrote: > On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 09:34:24PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote: >> On 03-11-12 18:31 , Marc MERLIN wrote: >>> >>> That's correct. Also, if you use CFL light bulbs, or dimmers, you are likely >>> in trouble. >> >> Wait, what? I think I have one non-CFL bulb in the house. Been using >> them since the Philips SLs were the thing in the 80s. Also, every > > I should have been more precise. If you use on/off switches, you're ok. > If you use dimmers with CFLs, it'll throw a lot of noise on your power bus. I've confirmed that CFLs generate noise too -- when they are off there's no problem but when you turn them on then there is some noise that affects an INSTEON's switch ability to turn the light off. I have a light fixture with three CFLs and I was getting unreliable comms with the switch until I unplugged 2 or the 3 CFLs. Perhaps it is not all CFLs and just the specific brand/model that I've got... >> (non-laptop) has a UPS. You mean to say that Insteon gets all bent out >> of shape with standard lighting and appliances? > > Just like X10, it is subject to line noise, yes. > However, it will retry 3 times (or more) and knows whether the message got > there. This part is something that I have never understood... it is stated everywhere (Smarthome literature, common knowledge online, etc.) that INSTEON has wonderful re-transmissions that make it more robust when compared to X10. Sure, that's very nice. However, as far as I know these re-transmissions are not part of the INSTEON protocol itself, i.e. device firmware does not implement re-transmissions. Instead, it is the INSTEON stack in the application the one that implements the re-transmissions when an ACK to a command is not received. I know, the end result is the same, but I think the marketing literature is a bit misleading on this regard. Our INSTEON stack in MisterHouse does implement the re-transmissions. Cheers, Eloy Paris.- |
From: Marc M. <ma...@me...> - 2012-11-04 14:31:37
|
On Sun, Nov 04, 2012 at 09:03:15AM -0500, Eloy Paris wrote: > > Just like X10, it is subject to line noise, yes. > > However, it will retry 3 times (or more) and knows whether the message got > > there. > > This part is something that I have never understood... it is stated > everywhere (Smarthome literature, common knowledge online, etc.) that > INSTEON has wonderful re-transmissions that make it more robust when > compared to X10. Sure, that's very nice. However, as far as I know these > re-transmissions are not part of the INSTEON protocol itself, i.e. > device firmware does not implement re-transmissions. Instead, it is the > INSTEON stack in the application the one that implements the > re-transmissions when an ACK to a command is not received. I know, the I'm indeed willing to believe that some insteon hardware does not implement retries the same way. I suppose technically maybe some could not do retries at all. > end result is the same, but I think the marketing literature is a bit > misleading on this regard. Our INSTEON stack in MisterHouse does What, marketing folks being misleading? Naaah, that would never happen :) > implement the re-transmissions. Correct, and I have mine turned up to retransmit many more times than 3 :) Marc -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ |