Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Keith MARSHALL <keith.marshall@to...>]

Earnie Boyd wrote:
>>  #!/bin/sh
>>  #
>>    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/winword' "$@"
>>  #
>>  # `winword' always forks a background process, even if we don't
>>  # explicitly request it, so wait for it to finish...
>>  #
>>    wait $!
>>  #
>>  # now we can do whatever we need to, after `winword' has finished.
>>  #
>>  ...
>
> Does your example work for 1.0.10?

Yes.

> It doesn't for 1.0.11.

Oh dear.  Something else that's been broken since 1.0.10 :-(  Or could
it be different version dependent behaviour in Windoze or Office?  I'm
on Win2K-SP4, and MS-Office2K, (which I avoid like the plague, as much
as possible :-) -- vim + groff + ghostscript ==> superior documents).

> I'm thinking that maybe all ``native'' children will respond in kind
> if there is no console.  The MSYS children may indeed wait regardless
> if there is a console but I don't know that yet.

Hmm.  Curiously, if we substitute `excel' for `winword' in the example,
it blocks -- `wait' is not needed.  To make it non-blocking, we have to
add the ampersand:

    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/excel' "$@" &

So, if we now modify the original example:

  #!/bin/sh
  #
  # we need the ampersand after `excel', to stop it blocking;
  # if we leave it off, we will not see `winword' start, until
  # the user quits `excel'
  #
    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/excel' "$@" &
  #
  # but, because we did force `excel' to background, we can see
  # both `excel' and `winword' start, and run simultaneously
  #
    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/winword' "$@"
  #
  # `winword' always forks a background process, even if we don't
  # explicitly request it, so wait for it to finish...
  #
    wait $!
  #
  # now, do some more...

With MSYS-1.0.10, this blocks on the `wait $!', until `winword' exits;
it doesn't wait for `excel'.  Of course, this illustrates the difference
between `wait $!' and `wait' without any PID argument; if we replace the
`wait $!' with a simple `wait', this script will wait for *both* `excel'
and `winword', (strictly, *all* children it has spawned in background).

Regards,
Keith.

Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Dobbs, Paul <paul.dobbs@lm...>]

It doesn't seem to have a problem with lines like:

#!/bin/sh
"c:Program Files\Microsoft Office\OFFICE11\WINWORD.exe" $@

So that is what I am using a present. Two questions:
1. What is the difference between using start and not using start (like
the example above)?
2. I'm working on a script that needs to start up a couple of programs
and wait until the user finishes with them and closes them befor
continuing. Is there a way other than putting a read after the lines
that start the program to accomplish this? The read works fine, this is
mostly curiousity. 


Paul Dobbs
Software Engineer, Staff 
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control
Phone (972) 603-1244
Fax (972) 603-2017

-----Original Message-----
From: mingw-users-bounces@...
[mailto:mingw-users-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Earnie
Boyd
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:34 AM
To: mingw-users@...
Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

Quoting "Dobbs, Paul" <paul.dobbs@...>:

> I'm new to mingw, having just downloaded and installed it this
morning.
> In the README.rtf file that opened when the installation was complete,

> there was an example to how to start a windows program (specifically 
> Microsft Word), The script is listed below. I've been trying to get it

> to work and can't. My Word executable is actually at c:\Program 
> Files\Microsoft Office\OFFICE11\WINWORD.EXE, and I made the
correction.
> I've tried just about all the variations that I can think of in terms 
> of how the path is specified, all with the same result: a command 
> window is opened and Word is not started. If I type 'cd "c:\Program 
> Files\Microsoft Office\Office11"' and then 'start WINWORD.EXE' Word 
> starts just fine, so it must be something in the path, but I haven't 
> been able to figure out what. Can somebody help?
>
>
> #!/bin/
> start '/c/Program\ Files/Microsoft\ Office/Office/WINWORD' $@
>

Hmm...  Looks like I've broken something.  The easiest workaround in
this cause of course is to just start WINWORD.EXE.  If you wish to use
the paths use the short name version.  Type cmd then dir /X c:\ to find
the short name of Program Files and dir /X "c:\Program Files" to find
the short name of Microsoft Office.  Make sure you quote the $@, i.e.

#! /bin/sh
start '/c/Progra~1/Micros~2/Office/WINWORD' "$@"

In my discovery I found that the \ in the string was converted to / and
that of course isn't the action we need.  I'll file a bug report to
remind myself.  I don't know if this will be fixed for the up and coming
1.0.11 release.

Earnie Boyd
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Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Dobbs, Paul <paul.dobbs@lm...>]

Thanks to both of you for the explanations and help.


Paul Dobbs
Software Engineer, Staff 
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control
Phone (972) 603-1244
Fax (972) 603-2017

Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Keith MARSHALL <keith.marshall@to...>]

Paul Dobbs wrote:
> Thanks to both of you for the explanations and help.

You're welcome.

Regards,
Keith.

[Mingw-users] [xSPAM] Re: Question about start

[Earnie Boyd <earnie@us...>]

Quoting Keith MARSHALL <keith.marshall@...>:

> Paul Dobbs wrote:
>> Thanks to both of you for the explanations and help.
>
> You're welcome.
>

Likewise!

Earnie
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Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Earnie Boyd <earnie@us...>]

Quoting "Dobbs, Paul" <paul.dobbs@...>:

> It doesn't seem to have a problem with lines like:
>
> #!/bin/sh
> "c:Program Files\Microsoft Office\OFFICE11\WINWORD.exe" $@
>
> So that is what I am using a present. Two questions:
> 1. What is the difference between using start and not using start (like
> the example above)?

Winword doesn't open the console so it allows the return of your MSYS 
window without needing start.  If the program were to use the console 
you would need to use start to create a new console to allow the MSYS 
console to become free.

> 2. I'm working on a script that needs to start up a couple of programs
> and wait until the user finishes with them and closes them befor
> continuing. Is there a way other than putting a read after the lines
> that start the program to accomplish this? The read works fine, this is
> mostly curiousity.
>

 From my answer to your first question, it should be obvious that if 
you open the console then MSYS would wait until it has control of the 
stdio.

Earnie Boyd
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Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Keith MARSHALL <keith.marshall@to...>]

Earnie Boyd wrote, quoting Paul Dobbs:
>> It doesn't seem to have a problem with lines like:
>>
>> #!/bin/sh
>> "c:Program Files\Microsoft Office\OFFICE11\WINWORD.exe" $@
>>
>> So that is what I am using a present. Two questions:
>> 1. What is the difference between using start and not using start (like
>> the example above)?

`start' is pretty much the Windoze analogue of adding a free standing
ampersand to the *end* of the command line in *nix; it places the process
being started in the background, allowing the shell to get immediate
control of the console again.  Thus, Earnie's explanation...

> Winword doesn't open the console so it allows the return of your MSYS 
> window without needing start.  If the program were to use the console 
> you would need to use start to create a new console to allow the MSYS 
> console to become free.

...is tantamount to saying that WINWORD is coded in a fashion which
causes it to place *itself* in background, from the off; (there are
some *nix applications which behave similarly).  You won't notice
any difference, with such applications, whether or not you use
`start'.

>> 2. I'm working on a script that needs to start up a couple of programs
>> and wait until the user finishes with them and closes them befor
>> continuing. Is there a way other than putting a read after the lines
>> that start the program to accomplish this?

Yes.  The conventional *nix way would be `wait'; it works in MSYS too.

>> The read works fine, this is
>> mostly curiousity.
>
> From my answer to your first question, it should be obvious that if 
> you open the console then MSYS would wait until it has control of the 
> stdio.

You don't need to do that.  If your script invokes foreground tasks,
it will wait for them anyway; to wait for the last background task you
started, just add a `wait', (or `wait $!'), after the command which
starts it, so, staying with WINWORD as an example:--

  #!/bin/sh
  #
    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/winword' "$@"
  #
  # `winword' always forks a background process, even if we don't
  # explicitly request it, so wait for it to finish...
  #
    wait $!
  #
  # now we can do whatever we need to, after `winword' has finished.
  #
  ...

BTW, it doesn't matter whether you use backslashes, as in your example,
or regular slashes, as I have shown.  Just remember that backslash has
special meaning to the UNIX shell, (which you are using here), so you
need to be careful with quoting; IMO, using a regular slash is cleaner,
and less likely to cause confusion.

Also note that, when you use `$@' to pass script arguments on to a child
process, it really is good practice, as Earnie pointed out yesterday, to
wrap it in *double* quotes.  If you don't, word splitting may occur where
you don't want it, and double quotes should prevent that; (*should*, means
*will* on *nix, but since argument quoting is broken in too many Windoze
programs -- `start', for example -- it can't be guaranteed for MSYS).

HTH,
Keith.

Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Earnie Boyd <earnie@us...>]

While we're on the subject:

The start command is a shell script.

<script name="/bin/start">
#!/bin/sh
# Copyright (C) 2002, Earnie Boyd
#   mailto:earnie@...
# This file is part of Minimal SYStem.
#   http://www.mingw.org/msys.shtml
# File: start

cmd //c start "$@"
</script>

Notice that it executes the cmd command.

<script name="/bin/cmd">
#!/bin/sh
# Copyright (C) 2002, Earnie Boyd
#   mailto:earnie@...
# This file is part of Minimal SYStem.
#   http://www.mingw.org/msys.shtml
# File: cmd

`echo $COMSPEC | sed -e 's#\\\\#/#g'` "$@"
</script>

The cmd script was created to allow me to not need to check whether 
command.com vs cmd.exe was to be used.  If someone wishes to improve 
this I'm willing to listen to ideas.

Earnie Boyd
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Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Earnie Boyd <earnie@us...>]

Quoting Keith MARSHALL <keith.marshall@...>:


>
> You don't need to do that.  If your script invokes foreground tasks,
> it will wait for them anyway; to wait for the last background task you
> started, just add a `wait', (or `wait $!'), after the command which
> starts it, so, staying with WINWORD as an example:--
>
>  #!/bin/sh
>  #
>    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/winword' "$@"
>  #
>  # `winword' always forks a background process, even if we don't
>  # explicitly request it, so wait for it to finish...
>  #
>    wait $!
>  #
>  # now we can do whatever we need to, after `winword' has finished.
>  #
>  ...
>

Does your example work for 1.0.10?  It doesn't for 1.0.11.  I'm 
thinking that maybe all ``native'' children will respond in kind if 
there is no console.  The MSYS children may indeed wait regardless if 
there is a console but I don't know that yet.

Patches to correct are welcome.

Earnie Boyd
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Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Keith MARSHALL <keith.marshall@to...>]

Earnie Boyd wrote:
>>  #!/bin/sh
>>  #
>>    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/winword' "$@"
>>  #
>>  # `winword' always forks a background process, even if we don't
>>  # explicitly request it, so wait for it to finish...
>>  #
>>    wait $!
>>  #
>>  # now we can do whatever we need to, after `winword' has finished.
>>  #
>>  ...
>
> Does your example work for 1.0.10?

Yes.

> It doesn't for 1.0.11.

Oh dear.  Something else that's been broken since 1.0.10 :-(  Or could
it be different version dependent behaviour in Windoze or Office?  I'm
on Win2K-SP4, and MS-Office2K, (which I avoid like the plague, as much
as possible :-) -- vim + groff + ghostscript ==> superior documents).

> I'm thinking that maybe all ``native'' children will respond in kind
> if there is no console.  The MSYS children may indeed wait regardless
> if there is a console but I don't know that yet.

Hmm.  Curiously, if we substitute `excel' for `winword' in the example,
it blocks -- `wait' is not needed.  To make it non-blocking, we have to
add the ampersand:

    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/excel' "$@" &

So, if we now modify the original example:

  #!/bin/sh
  #
  # we need the ampersand after `excel', to stop it blocking;
  # if we leave it off, we will not see `winword' start, until
  # the user quits `excel'
  #
    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/excel' "$@" &
  #
  # but, because we did force `excel' to background, we can see
  # both `excel' and `winword' start, and run simultaneously
  #
    'c:/Program Files/Microsoft Office/Office/winword' "$@"
  #
  # `winword' always forks a background process, even if we don't
  # explicitly request it, so wait for it to finish...
  #
    wait $!
  #
  # now, do some more...

With MSYS-1.0.10, this blocks on the `wait $!', until `winword' exits;
it doesn't wait for `excel'.  Of course, this illustrates the difference
between `wait $!' and `wait' without any PID argument; if we replace the
`wait $!' with a simple `wait', this script will wait for *both* `excel'
and `winword', (strictly, *all* children it has spawned in background).

Regards,
Keith.

Re: [Mingw-users] Question about start

[Earnie Boyd <earnie@us...>]

Quoting Keith MARSHALL <keith.marshall@...>:

>>
>> Does your example work for 1.0.10?
>
> Yes.
>
>> It doesn't for 1.0.11.
>
> Oh dear.  Something else that's been broken since 1.0.10 :-(  Or could

Probably something I broke trying to look into the pty issue.  I'll 
take a look at it.

> it be different version dependent behaviour in Windoze or Office?  I'm
> on Win2K-SP4, and MS-Office2K, (which I avoid like the plague, as much
> as possible :-) -- vim + groff + ghostscript ==> superior documents).
>

Maybe but I doubt it.  I'll try 1.0.10 with the sample on my system.

Thanks,
Earnie Boyd
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