Re: [Mentalunix-developers] Debate over philOSophy. =\

[CoolProgrammer <coo...@ya...>]

Actually, Netscape running multiple windows under KDE
when Linux is running off of a loop filesystem with no
swap appears to be evil...

Under FVWM2 (which is much less memory hungry... LOL),
it seems to be happy (it'll run on our 486 with 16MB
RAM in fvwm2 and fvwm95)...

~CoolProgrammer
--- CoolProgrammer <coo...@ya...> wrote:
> Ok... I'll try this again (Netscape evils--it's evil
> in any OS)...
> 
> I learned a bit about the startup process from
> re-configuring Slackware to allow logins from the
> serial port (which later resulted in setting up a
> PPP
> network for a more powerful setup). I agree that
> Linux
> can be confusing--installing it on a 386 with 2MB
> RAM
> is the ultimate confusion (figuring out how to make
> swapspace when there wasn't enough ram to run
> mkswap).
> 
> Well, LOL--let's hope this gets out this time...
> 
> ~CoolProgrammer
> --- Alan Grimes <ala...@st...> wrote:
> > [two replies]
> > 
> > CoolProgrammer wrote:
> > 
> > > I have a question--why are you so involved in
> this
> > > group if you aren't a Linux user?
> > 
> > New distribution == chance to make an impact; get
> > some design changes in
> > before the first rom is burned... 
> > Purely self serving... 
> > I expect that I will be kicked as a troll soon so
> I
> > will use the time I
> > have to make as much noise as I can. =\
> >  
> > > Multiuser is not handled until init loads--after
> > the
> > > kernel loads.
> > 
> > I have very little to absolutly no understanding
> of
> > the linux boot
> > process... It isn't as if it were documented and
> > presented in such a way
> > that I could: 
> > 
> > 	A. Locate the documentation.
> > 	B. Understand the documentation.
> > 
> > The text that comes with your average distribution
> > comes only with
> > instructions on using the menu systems that
> > distribution prefers that
> > the user use. =\ 
> > 
> > So Excuse me for being ignorant... 
> > 
> > I have read that the user log-in process begins
> with
> > a program called
> > "getty" but that's as far as my knowlege of the
> > subject goes. =\
> > 
> > 
> > >  The kernel handles multitasking (and possibly
> > isolation of users--in 
> > > fact, the filesystem does keep different users
> > from getting into 
> > > others' files).
> > 
> > As far as I know, isolating users is one of the
> > primary kernel
> > functions. 
> > It doesn't need to be, and it would be a far
> better
> > workstation/emedded
> > system if it did. =\
> >  
> > > Linux already seems pretty easy to use--with the
> > KDE
> > > and GNOME desktop environments, a user who is
> > familiar
> > > with Windows should almost feel at home.
> > 
> > I have not gotten such a system to work, so its
> > impossible for me to
> > call it even remotely "easy". =P
> > 
> > 
> > > One program caused the crash of another...
> > 
> > There are several techniques to preserve
> > reliability.
> > The Amiga wasn't known for its crashing. ;)
> > 
> > > I think I smell some now...
> > 
> > Yeah, it reaks. 
> >  
> > > Couldn't be in here--running two 32-bit OS's in
> > here
> > > (Windows won't count as far as I'm concerned
> until
> > > they fry the freakin' HIMEM.SYS and give Windows
> > it's
> > > own upper memory management)...
> > 
> > Himem.sys does practicaly nothing except provide
> > "VCPI" interfaces. 
> > KRNL386 or your equivalent, uses thes services to
> > install its own suckey
> > memory managment.... I wish there was an
> alternative
> > version of Krnl386
> > that was written to prefer to use any existing
> DPMI
> > server instead of
> > blindly replacing it with its own broken one. =( 
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Clinton Ebadi wrote:
> > 
> > > > No, nor do I ever intend to become a
> unix/linux
> > user. *shrug*
> > >
> > > Use the OS before you trash it. You sound like
> > some windows user
> > > bashing macs, and the mac users who bash windows
> > -- you've
> > 
> > There is text missing here but I'll try to reply. 
> > My simplest way to proove that I have given linux
> > more than its fair
> > share of my pain is that I have, in a rack behind
> > me, a re-distribution
> > of Rednux Lihat 3.0. I also have on-hand rednux
> > lihat 5.0, which I had
> > the best luck with. And then Mandrake 6.2 which
> was
> > far too bloated to
> > fit on my drive...
> > 
> > All of the above were far too painful for me to
> > reccomend to anyone,
> > save perhaps someone trying to set up a server or
> > something. But mostly
> > I have switched to reccomending FreeBSD... =P
> > 
> > > > > You could easily remove "multiuser mode",
> but
> > why would you?
> > > >
> > > > To make the kernel simpler, dummy.
> > 
> > > My god! The kernel is not multiuser, the system
> > is. You can go into
> > > single user mode if you like, but it wouldn't
> make
> > the kernel any
> > > simpler!
> > 
> > Yes, it would, considerably... Half the filesystem
> > code could be ripped
> > out. Half of a lot of stuff could be ripped out.
> It
> > SHOULD be ripped
> > out! 
> > (especially abominations such as khttpd.) 
> > 
> > > > All user files would be stored by the user
> > system in encrypted "wad"
> > > > files that would be safe, even from Root (root
> > could only delete your
> > > > files, not view them, or even tell which files
> > you have).
> > >
> > > WTF? wad files? Keep things from the admin.
> > 
> > > What about trojans?
> > 
> > That's a security problem. If the user code was
> > properly sandboxed, only
> > that user would really care about what it was
> doing.
> > 
> > 
> > > Should I, as the all knowing and wise root,
> allow
> > my users to have
> > > their data hidden from me?
> > 
> > Select a different user managment system or
> > implement your own. ;)
> > Your enginuity is the limit! 
> > 
> > >  No! The admin has to be allowed to audit users
> > accounts. If some crazy 
> > > guy is using my servers to distribute illegal
> > warez / kiddie pr0n / 
> > > trying to crack the system with a user account,
> I
> > need to know.
> > 
> > Those are first ammendment/criminal issues that
> are
> > between him and the
> > law. 
> > If you are concerned about a particular user, you
> > don't have to provide
> > him any services. ;)
> > 
> > 
> > > > I don't like compromises.
> > >
> > > Well, you have to live with them. Not everyone
> is
> > the same. If UNIX
> > > doesn't have what you want, then use another
> > operating system. That
> > > is why we have something called choice.
> > 
> > Could you show me such an operating system that is
> > available for me to
> > choose?
> > 
> > If you can't you must realise if not sympathise
> with
> > my plight as a
> > computer user.
> > 
> > Once you have done that please don't insult me by
> > mouthing off about my
> > ability to chose something that doesn't exist. Its
> > like one of the last
> > queens of France who said, when confronted by the
> > problem of subjects
> > who had no bread, "Let them eat cake!"
> > 
> > Get real.
> > 
> > > > Then we need to find a way to make the ideals
> > work, shouldn't we? ;)
> > >
> > > Not going to say much about this except..One
> > person's ideal OS is
> > > different from the next persons.
> > 
> > Yes. 
> > This world has enough linuxi.
> > Its time to start looking at different ideals.
> > 
> >  
> > > > Not exactly...
> > > > I *used* to be a microkernel advocate.
> > > > Now I realize that kernels are unneccessary
> and
> > often get in the way
> > > > of good code. ;) Unfortunately Linux is a
> *VERY*
> > traditional system
> > > > but that doesn't mean it could be cleaned up
> > quite a bit.
> > >
> > > Kernels are what control the fscking hardware.
> > 
> > But why does the hardware need to be controlled?
> > Why not just controll the *software*? 
> > If you limit the system to running only what goes
> > through *your*
> > compiler you have *perfect* control over the
> > software. 
> > That should be enough to satisfy you, It'll
> satisfy
> > me! ;) 
> > And make for cheaper hardware too... 
> > 
> > > Without them, every single application has to be
> > able to boot itself,
> > > control all the hardware, and run.
> > 
> > The Apple ran very well that way. ;)
> > I believe that there is still a viable market for
> > machines of that
> > type...
> > 
> > Ofcourse routines wolud be available to all
> programs
> > for sending
> > requests to driver programs, as well as other
> > programs which would
> > preempt the CPU or select which routines to run or
> > whatever you would
> > need a program for. 
> > :o)
> > 
> > > So, you'd have to reboot to use any programs.
> > 
> > DOS doesn't have what you would call a kernel at
> it
> > is very happy.
> > Actually I make use of a loadable kernel which
> > appears to all observers
> > to be a mere device driver. It is powerful enough
> to
> > run ZSNES and
> > Quake. 
> > 
> > There are many ways to implement a system on which
> > multiple programs can
> > run. 
> > 
> > In the days of the punch card, each program simply
> > overwrote the memory
> > locations the previous program used. Since
> > (hopefully) everything was
> > declared properly by each succeding program. The
> > machine continued to
> > operate while successive shifts operated it...
> > Untill it blew a tube. ;) 
> > 
> > Ofcourse more sophisticated loaders can be made
> > today.
> > 
> > > YOU NEED A KERNEL OR ELSE THE OPERATING SYSTEM
> > WILL NOT WORK!
> > 
> > In the case of this rather shitty OS, you are
> > correct. =\
> > 
> > > C is an OS language.
> > 
> > Yeah, and Lisp is an AI language. =P
> > OSes would be better off if they were written in
> > Lisp. 
> > And well... Windoze would be much faster if it
> > weren't all in VB byte
> > code. ;)
> > 
> > > yeah. You use it to make an Operating System.
> > 
> > Not neccessarily. 
> > Unix wasn't implemented in C till '83.
> > Before that it was in assembly. =\ 
> > 
> > > For user apps, I agree you should use something
> > like C++ or python,
> > > but for a kernel and core OS applications, you
> > need C, and
> > > assembly(assembly is needed when directly
> > controlling hardware most
> > > of the time..and the kernel has to do that!)
> > 
> > Bah!
> > If I were forced by some sadist to re-implement
> > linux, I'd do it all in
> > FORTH. =)
> > I consider C archaic even if it isn't yet
> > obsolete...
> > 
> > > You need to learn how to use a computer to use
> > UNIX.
> > 
> > And just how do you use a computer? =P
> > 
> > > Just because the KDE and GNOME people come along
> > as say : "Use linux as 
> > > a desktop" doesn't mean it is suited for it.
> > 
> > I require an OS that is. 
> > Lets build that instead of more OSes that I DON'T
> > need. =\ 
> > 
> > > UNIX is the developers OS, made by developers,
> for
> > developers.
> > 
> > A system earns its value from the uses it is put
> to
> > by the people who
> > use it. Developers who work on a system that is
> only
> > "for developers"
> > are wasting their time. 
> > 
> > 
> > > Now, lets see you write an OS and maintain a
> > distribution.
> > 
> > Do you have any notion of the magnitude of that
> > statement? 
> > 
> > Consider this Linux os that you are so hell bent
> on
> > propogating...
> > Unless my IQ is less than half that of a normal
> > person (It never tested
> > lower than 126 which is considerably above
> average),
> > I am correct in
> > saying that there are so few people in the entire
> > world who can do
> > nothing more than merely downloading and
> integrating
> > a working unix
> > operating system that I could fit all their names
> in
> > a small town's
> > telephone book! [from one of the books in my
> > collection, I wolud have to
> > look it up to get the details.]
> > 
> > I could do it if I had either maniacly motovated
> > partners who took
> > everything I said as a commandment, or about $5
> > million to pay people
> > like you to write it as I specify. As you can see
> I
> > have neither so I
> > languish with windows 3.11. =(
> > 
> > I WILL try to do it myself. I just got a lot of
> > research left to do. =\
> > 
> > 
> > > > Oh, If the hurd is intended to be
> "fundamentally
> > easier" then please
> > > > subscribe me to that mailinglist. ;)
> > >
> > > The HURD isn't supposed to be easier for the end
> > user, it is for the
> > > developer.
> > 
> > Oh, another worthless piece of software. Thanks
> for
> > saving my time. =)
> >  
> > 
> > > > Well then implement the functionality you want
> > on those OSes while
> > > > maintaining their current level of usability.
> > > >
> > > You can't have your cake and eat it to.
> > 
> > No, I just want more cake!!! 
> > I'll pay for it!
> > GIVE ME MORE!!!
> >  
> > > > I'm just on DOS, and that gets you a little
> > high. ;)
> > >
> > > No wonder. You must have lost a few to many
> brain
> > cells.
> > 
> > No, I just got spoiled by an OS that actually took
> > my needs into
> > consideration. Nowadays I will not tollerate
> > anything less, Not one wit. 
> > Do you get me? I want to make a BETTER OS. Is that
> > so radical?
> > 
> > I will use MY definitions of better. The ancient
> > forms of unix that have
> > been handed down to us by our ancestors mean
> nothing
> > to me. The one who
> > pays the piper is the one who calls the tune. The
> > >>>USER<<< is the
> > person who pays to acquire and maintain a system.
> It
> > is the USER's
> > requirements that must be taken into consideration
> > before anything else
> > when planning a new system. 
> > 
> > 
> > > > > Where is the code, dumbass?
> > > >
> > > > That's the $5,000,000 question. -<sob>- Money
> > (capital)...
> > >
> > > Learn to code, then you can taunt us and make
> fun
> > of us.
> > 
> > I can code as well as or better than you can.
> > Tell me first how many lines of code went into the
> > kernel, init, chron,
> > bash, getty, and all the others I can't think of
> off
> > the top of my head.
> > [I hear the number 4,000,000 thrown around alot.]
> > 
> > And then tell me wheather I will have the time and
> > resources to make and
> > complete a similar effort, working alone, within
> my
> > lifetime much less
> > the next decade! 
> > 
> > I write stories. 
> > It is understood that text is easier to write than
> > code. 
> > I have written about ten stories in my lifetime
> with
> > what I would guess
> > to be about 30,000 lines of text. Add all the
> e-mail
> > I've sent and you
> > get something on the order of 60,000 lines of
> text. 
> > 
> > Do the math!
> > 
> > Either It is possible for a human to become ten
> > times more productive or
> > you are asking the impossible. 
> > 
> > > As an end user, you could help to test the
> > distribution, and give us 
> > > positive feedback like : " it would be easier to
> > do x this way, can you 
> > > try that?". Not, "you guys are so stupid. You
> > suck. You can't do it
> > > right"
> > 
> > Well that is exactly what I will say whenever you
> > discount or dismiss
> > the feedback I was giving you. I told you what I
> > needed and then someone
> > else said "But that is not how it is done, you
> > should learn better."
> > THAT is when I become angry and upset. I am sure
> you
> > would do the same
> > were you in my position.
> > 
> > -- 
> > The 'apocolypse' happened in 1848.
> > Now if everybody would only just look... =\
> > http://users.erols.com/alangrimes/  <my website.
> > 
> > Unsolicited "spam" messages to this account are
> > subject to usage fees
> > and
> > in cases of fraud or egregeous abuse, prosecution.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Men...@li...
> >
>
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> > .
> > sers.erols.com/alangrimes/  <my website.
> > 
> > Unsolicited "spam" messages to this account are
> > subject to usage fees
> > and
> > in cases of fraud or egregeous abuse, prosecution.
> > 
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> >
>
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> > .
> > 
> 
> 
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