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From: Michel T. <ta...@lp...> - 2015-12-16 18:29:59
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Le 16/12/2015 17:14, Richard Fateman a écrit : > The Einstein convention may be handy, and it may have been more-or-less > reasonably implemented in Maxima programs (I don't do relatively for a > living) > but in general it's not necessary to mimick exactly what works for > paper. Humans > are more flexible than that, and a notation that doesn't play well on a > computer > should not be used by (physicists?) to insist that programmers should > hack endlessly on the program. Especially if another, more > suitable (unambiguous in the context of other supported mathematics, say) > is available. Well i gave these examples from relativity since it is the only example i know where there is heavy use of up and down indices, and since Robert Dodier was providing a notation with 4 different positions of the index. Personnally i cannot think of any reasonable use of preindices, apart from the marginal example of the notation for hypergeometric functions. If simplicity is required, i think that only one sort of index is really useful, in position post, down, since this is the most traditional notation throughout mathematics. However such an index may be a letter or a number. > A mathematician of my acquaintance insisted that he couldn't use > Macsyma/Maxima > because the computer terminal I offered him was lacking in keys for > Greek letters. > Well, he was right in that indeed he couldn't use Maxima. And indeed greek letters are in such universal use in mathematics and physics that having them at disposal seems necessary. But this is no more a problem nowadays, either in wxmaxima or using unicode as explained by Leo Butler. -- Michel Talon |
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From: Robert D. <rob...@gm...> - 2015-12-16 18:16:21
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On 2015-12-16, Gunter Königsmann <gu...@pe...> wrote: > - - Greatly underestimating how much time meeting all the requirements > of a seamless integration into the debian system I managed to get > nominated as the official debian packager for wxMaxima. That's terrific. Thanks a lot! I know it is a lot of work, but it is very valuable. best, Robert Dodier |
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From: Gunter K. <gu...@pe...> - 2015-12-16 18:35:45
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
It was you who told once to a user that claimed to be no maths wizard
that even small things might be of help. Will try to get the next
wxMaxima release into debian testing again.
Kind regards,
Gunter.
On 16.12.2015 19:16, Robert Dodier wrote:
> On 2015-12-16, Gunter Königsmann <gu...@pe...> wrote:
>
>> - - Greatly underestimating how much time meeting all the
>> requirements of a seamless integration into the debian system I
>> managed to get nominated as the official debian packager for
>> wxMaxima.
>
> That's terrific. Thanks a lot! I know it is a lot of work, but it
> is very valuable.
>
> best,
>
> Robert Dodier
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------
>
>
_______________________________________________
> Maxima-discuss mailing list Max...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-discuss
>
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From: Raymond T. <toy...@gm...> - 2015-12-16 19:12:38
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>>>>> "Michel" == Michel Talon <ta...@lp...> writes:
Michel> Le 16/12/2015 17:14, Richard Fateman a écrit :
>> The Einstein convention may be handy, and it may have been more-or-less
>> reasonably implemented in Maxima programs (I don't do relatively for a
>> living)
>> but in general it's not necessary to mimick exactly what works for
>> paper. Humans
>> are more flexible than that, and a notation that doesn't play well on a
>> computer
>> should not be used by (physicists?) to insist that programmers should
>> hack endlessly on the program. Especially if another, more
>> suitable (unambiguous in the context of other supported mathematics, say)
>> is available.
Michel> Well i gave these examples from relativity since it is the only example
Michel> i know where there is heavy use of up and down indices, and since Robert
Michel> Dodier was providing a notation with 4 different positions of the index.
Michel> Personnally i cannot think of any reasonable use of preindices, apart
Michel> from the marginal example of the notation for hypergeometric functions.
Michel> If simplicity is required, i think that only
Michel> one sort of index is really useful, in position post, down, since this
Michel> is the most traditional notation throughout mathematics. However such an
Michel> index may be a letter or a number.
I agree with this completely, and what Richard says above.
But what Robert did is basically a 2D display mechanism, so I don't
have a big problem with that except for the fact that it's now easy to
confuse a post subscript with a pre subscript. I notice that all of
his examples were sums where it can't really be confused. :-)
>> A mathematician of my acquaintance insisted that he couldn't use
>> Macsyma/Maxima
>> because the computer terminal I offered him was lacking in keys for
>> Greek letters.
>> Well, he was right in that indeed he couldn't use Maxima.
Michel> And indeed greek letters are in such universal use in mathematics and
Michel> physics that having them at disposal seems necessary. But this is no
Michel> more a problem nowadays, either in wxmaxima or using unicode as
Michel> explained by Leo Butler.
My keyboard doesn't have an greek letters on it, and I can never
remember the magic keystrokes to enter them that they basically don't
exist for me. :-) But that's my problem.
--
Ray
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From: Gunter K. <gu...@pe...> - 2015-12-16 19:35:38
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 > I agree with this completely, and what Richard says above. > > But what Robert did is basically a 2D display mechanism, so I > don't have a big problem with that except for the fact that it's > now easy to confuse a post subscript with a pre subscript. I > notice that all of his examples were sums where it can't really be > confused. :-) > Perhaps one should use such features only if this really is the case. On the other hand finding a workflow adapt for the kind of problems one encounters always tends to be a vital part of using a complex program so perhaps one has to live with this risk. > > My keyboard doesn't have an greek letters on it, and I can never > remember the magic keystrokes to enter them that they basically > don't exist for me. :-) But that's my problem. > The same is still true for virtually everybody else. But in the next version there will be a greek sidebar that was written for kind of announcing that the program supports unicode - and the program provides an input method for greek letters: an alpha can be produced by pressing <ESC>, typing alpha [in latin letters] and pressing <ESC> again - or by typing <ESC>a<ESC>. Kind regards, Gunter. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQJ8BAEBCgBmBQJWcbzmXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXQ1M0YwNDdDRTY2QjkxQjBGNzI0QzU0NUQ1 Qzg2QzBFNDIxMUQ1QjhFAAoJEFyGwOQhHVuOpcAP/1pzjpJBSAa3TSyJWeYiUqxi H3Sudtl9/KoAvkothv5lbrjNsTjxaOPx/kZER5EgxMjjD8mPeCB0QV2VManJ+Kne OUMipwUWdXoSD8ACTfEtz8nJohBiNCf3ygAlm9o6+k/1vDSDJJNtehoImGrPCf+n mSm9lUkPHvy9tkvgLOiTZpaAXp5HOLfcY176LE6XkPl99627qAgS/BVHHL+FtK0F rtyQulkiLm6GA61y4JMR0Gq/eY+VXSsjoX37J6/mzOpncjD6dbL3bqznoLxiYrwC y1CtsxGcPEp4wvpnmIn+1/PuDvap/QJNS11ocJX3IS/7PldrzuOwNIgynaaX6TtX 1NzI6vGWpmQ/QaZmbPn5zxCmIv7P30QRC+dT9FjXcbofUEYeAA7qTkbCOX6u2gx9 PrkYDmzQJ4wJrXx73TRJDpTHYOihP+sOejFYNIrOCDZeslH83n4y14+nPEhqcSQI lC27hNZ2Vj1fmSoLUFKFtyQLZUHcKtKdiLudgC3PsLAdjwj/FGyaON9VPgrj3QaD onvI7EkU2RzuxDN+Jxic12oAUoetxQNymlM9HMAFzBgluU/rshyRd4YcoJvEV8Gm LAZZE/sTSl0XwW0DzrGLYrX49zh6T/T7K9kiL1bsMuB4QhDgYaY5NuFZX7g3VWv1 cyPITbhCAbpLDtUbZXYe =WzAe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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From: Leo B. <l_b...@us...> - 2015-12-16 23:32:16
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Gunter Königsmann <gu...@pe...> writes: >> I agree with this completely, and what Richard says above. >> >> But what Robert did is basically a 2D display mechanism, so I >> don't have a big problem with that except for the fact that it's >> now easy to confuse a post subscript with a pre subscript. I >> notice that all of his examples were sums where it can't really be >> confused. :-) >> > Perhaps one should use such features only if this really is the case. > On the other hand finding a workflow adapt for the kind of problems > one encounters always tends to be a vital part of using a complex > program so perhaps one has to live with this risk. >> >> My keyboard doesn't have an greek letters on it, and I can never >> remember the magic keystrokes to enter them that they basically >> don't exist for me. :-) But that's my problem. When I get time, I will add a shortcut (possibly an abbrev table) for maxima-mode. I currently use an abbrev table for myself, but I'm not super-satisfied with it because one ends up with more whitespace than needed. >> > > The same is still true for virtually everybody else. But in the next > version there will be a greek sidebar that was written for kind of > announcing that the program supports unicode - and the program > provides an input method for greek letters: an alpha can be produced > by pressing <ESC>, typing alpha [in latin letters] and pressing <ESC> > again - or by typing <ESC>a<ESC>. Why not use a simple prefix (I like `, but make it configurable) and accept any unique identifier of a greek letter. E.g. `a => α, `al => α, etc. `B => Β My guess is that would cover 99% of the use cases without needing a closing postfix. Leo |
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From: Robert D. <rob...@gm...> - 2015-12-16 20:57:33
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On 2015-12-16, Richard Fateman <fa...@be...> wrote:
> the notation for differentiation as f'(x), f''(x) or totally
> bizarrely d^2f(x)/d^2x or f with dots above,
> or d_x{f} etc ..
> could also be used,
>
> but we use diff(f(x),x,2)
Well, this is actually analogous to what I'm proposing with generalized
subscripts, right? The user enters an unambiguous, clunky notation,
which is displayed in a "nice" (according to somebody) way by the
pretty printer.
> The Einstein convention may be handy, and it may have been more-or-less
> reasonably implemented in Maxima programs
Well, if it's clumsy, confusing, ugly, etc -- don't use it. The index
stuff (at least in the form I'm proposing) doesn't change any existing
stuff.
> should not be used by (physicists?) to insist that programmers should
> hack endlessly on the program.
Needless to say, we're all volunteers here, and if someone wants to work
on goofy display stuff, why should we stop them? Nobody's forcing
anybody to do anything.
best
Robert Dodier
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From: Raymond T. <toy...@gm...> - 2015-12-16 22:07:31
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>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Dodier <rob...@gm...> writes:
Robert> On 2015-12-16, Richard Fateman <fa...@be...> wrote:
>> the notation for differentiation as f'(x), f''(x) or totally
>> bizarrely d^2f(x)/d^2x or f with dots above,
>> or d_x{f} etc ..
>> could also be used,
>>
>> but we use diff(f(x),x,2)
Robert> Well, this is actually analogous to what I'm proposing with generalized
Robert> subscripts, right? The user enters an unambiguous, clunky notation,
Robert> which is displayed in a "nice" (according to somebody) way by the
Robert> pretty printer.
>> The Einstein convention may be handy, and it may have been more-or-less
>> reasonably implemented in Maxima programs
Robert> Well, if it's clumsy, confusing, ugly, etc -- don't use it. The index
Robert> stuff (at least in the form I'm proposing) doesn't change any existing
Robert> stuff.
>> should not be used by (physicists?) to insist that programmers should
>> hack endlessly on the program.
Robert> Needless to say, we're all volunteers here, and if someone wants to work
Robert> on goofy display stuff, why should we stop them? Nobody's forcing
Robert> anybody to do anything.
Open source means they can do whatever they want with their own copy.
That doesn't mean this particular copy needs to take their goofy
changes.
I rather like being able to display tensor stuff this way; I just
don't like the confusion it can cause. My old eyes aren't so good
anymore.
And you're wrong aobut forcing people. I may not want to use it, but
perhaps the only package that solves a problem for me uses it. Now I
have two choices: use the package, or write my own.
--
Ray
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From: Robert D. <rob...@gm...> - 2015-12-16 22:40:37
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On 2015-12-16, Raymond Toy <toy...@gm...> wrote:
> And you're wrong aobut forcing people. I may not want to use it, but
> perhaps the only package that solves a problem for me uses it. Now I
> have two choices: use the package, or write my own.
Well, three, actually.
put('foo, false, 'display_indices);
best,
Robert Dodier
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From: Robert D. <rob...@gm...> - 2015-12-23 20:58:31
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Hi Roland, thanks for your message. I have taken the liberty of forwarding it to the Maxima mailing list. I believe it's best to conduct further discussion of this topic on the mailing list. You wrote: > Concerning the suitable character set: > > There is the Unicode block "Mathematical Alphanumerical > Symbols" which contains (e.g. fraktur letters and also) bold > Latin letters. My idea was to use them. Unfortunately, all of these > are displayed in wxmaxima in reduced size and somewhat > shifted downward compared to normal Latin letters. The > reason for this is unknown to me. Apart from that, this bold feature looks > good in the input, but is hardly noticeable in the output of wxmaxima. > So altogether, this solution seems little practicable, at least at the moment. I don't know much about the wxMaxima display. Perhaps someone can address this. I think that Lisp implementations which can handle Unicode are happy with such characters, so they should work OK in the console user interface (assuming that the terminal program is happy with them too). > Concerning attaching properties to the main symbol: > > My interpretation of your comment would be something like this: > > declare (bold, feature); > declare (foo, bold); > > Then wxmaxima would have to do something like: > > If featurep (foo,bold) then > <display foo in bold, both in the input and in the output line> Well, more or less, although I wonder if declare should be reserved for mathematical properties. So maybe display properties should be attached in some other way. There do exist some display properties already. As to whether such properties should be taken into account by Maxima, whether they are useful is the user's problem to decide. There's no need for us to rule them out. We might or might not implement them, but there's no need on our part to say they just cannot be. Be that as it may, Unicode characters which already have those properties make the problem go away to some extent. best, Robert Dodier |
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From: Gunter K. <gu...@pe...> - 2015-12-23 21:10:55
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In theory wxMaxima should not change the font size or position of individual letters within a variable name. Or it does do so, but should only do so for super-and-subscripts... My guess would therefore be that the letters look this way in the font wxMaxima uses per default for output. Am 23. Dezember 2015 21:58:25 MEZ, schrieb Robert Dodier <rob...@gm...>: >Hi Roland, > >thanks for your message. I have taken the liberty of forwarding it >to the Maxima mailing list. I believe it's best to conduct further >discussion of this topic on the mailing list. > >You wrote: > >> Concerning the suitable character set: >> >> There is the Unicode block "Mathematical Alphanumerical >> Symbols" which contains (e.g. fraktur letters and also) bold >> Latin letters. My idea was to use them. Unfortunately, all of these >> are displayed in wxmaxima in reduced size and somewhat >> shifted downward compared to normal Latin letters. The >> reason for this is unknown to me. Apart from that, this bold feature >looks >> good in the input, but is hardly noticeable in the output of >wxmaxima. >> So altogether, this solution seems little practicable, at least at >the moment. > >I don't know much about the wxMaxima display. Perhaps someone >can address this. > >I think that Lisp implementations which can handle Unicode are >happy with such characters, so they should work OK in the >console user interface (assuming that the terminal program is >happy with them too). > >> Concerning attaching properties to the main symbol: >> >> My interpretation of your comment would be something like this: >> >> declare (bold, feature); >> declare (foo, bold); >> >> Then wxmaxima would have to do something like: >> >> If featurep (foo,bold) then >> <display foo in bold, both in the input and in the output line> > >Well, more or less, although I wonder if declare should >be reserved for mathematical properties. So maybe >display properties should be attached in some other way. >There do exist some display properties already. > >As to whether such properties should be taken into account >by Maxima, whether they are useful is the user's problem to decide. >There's no need for us to rule them out. We might or might not >implement them, but there's no need on our part to say they >just cannot be. > >Be that as it may, Unicode characters which already have >those properties make the problem go away to some extent. > >best, > >Robert Dodier > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >_______________________________________________ >Maxima-discuss mailing list >Max...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/maxima-discuss -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Gerät mit K-9 Mail gesendet. |
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