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From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 18:26:08

Bugs item #783284, was opened at 20030804 22:04 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=783284&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Documentation Group: None >Status: Closed >Resolution: Fixed Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: lratsubst and fullratsubst don't autoload Initial Comment: lratsubst and fullratsubst are documented as though they were part of the core system  documentation does not say that they have to be loaded explicitly. But they are not set up for autoloading. They should autoload from share/simplification/lrats.mac. Maxima 5.9.0 gcl 2.5.0 mingw32 Windows 2000 Athlon  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 12:26 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 Documentation for fullratsubst and lratsubst states (since probably sometime last year) that they need to be loaded from lrats.mac. Closing this report as fixed.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=783284&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 18:12:32

Bugs item #782099, was opened at 20030802 15:29 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=782099&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Lisp Core  Limit Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: limit returns expression in IND Initial Comment: limit(sinh(exp(%i*x)),x,inf) => (%E^IND%E^IND)/2 should be just IND This may be related to limit(%e^ind) not giving IND.  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 12:12 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 See also bug report # 1515430 und not propagated through functions.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=782099&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 18:02:24

Bugs item #782046, was opened at 20030802 12:44 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=782046&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. Category: Lisp Core  Limit Group: None >Status: Closed >Resolution: Fixed Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: limit(abs(x),x,0) fails Initial Comment: limit(abs(x),x,0) returns noun form, even though limit knows the limit for x>inf and x>minf. This really seems like too trivial a case to fail on. There does appear to be code in limit.lisp (bothside) to handle the zero case by looking at the pluslimit and the minuslimit, but (a) it is not being invoked and (b) it looks incomplete  it doesn't know how to interpret IND nor how to return it. So this really is a bug and not a feature request. Maxima 5.9.0  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 12:02 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 Observed in 5.9.3 / clisp 2.34 but not in 5.9.3cvs / clisp 2.38, gcl 2.6.7, and sbcl 0.9.9. Apparently fixed by r1.20 src/limit.lisp which applies limit from both sides to expressions involving MABS. Added a test for limit(abs(x),x,0) to r1.41 tests/rtest15.mac. Closing this report as fixed.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=782046&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 17:45:08

Bugs item #781788, was opened at 20030801 16:16 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=781788&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: scalar/matrix addition inconsistent Initial Comment: I claim that componentwise addition of scalars to matrices is wrong. By default, doallmxops=true. Define m:matrix([a,b],[c,d]). Calculate ratsimp(m.m^^1+m). This yields matrix ([a+1,b],[c,d+1]). Good. Now calculate subst(m,n,n.n^^1+n). This yields matrix ([a+1,b+1],[c+1,d+1]). I believe this is wrong. Note that this happens even when dotident is not equal to 1. Only if dotexptsimp=false (which is a pretty radical restriction) does the subst case match the nonsubst case. As far as I can tell, the only sensible thing for scalar+matrix to mean is scalar*identitymatrix + matrix. I do not believe that componentwise addition of scalar to matrix is ever useful; if it is, you can always write it as scalar*allonesmatrix + matrix. Note that scalar/matrix *multiplication* is a completely different matter  componentwise is perfectly meaningful and useful there. Maxima 5.9.0  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=781788&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 17:30:12

Bugs item #781726, was opened at 20030801 14:45 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=781726&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Problems with IEEEfloat NaN and INF Initial Comment: flinf: 2.0^1024$ flinf => Error: Can't print a nonnumber (lisp break) Should print something special, e.g. INFe0 flnan: flinfflinf$ flnan => Bind stack overflow (lisp break) Should print something special, e.g. NaNe0 is(flnan=flnan) => TRUE NO! NaN is not equal to itself; cf ?=(flnan,flnan). is(flnan>0) => TRUE NO! is(flnan<0) => TRUE NO! flnan*0 => 0 NO! flinf*0 => 0 NO! GCL also can't print flnan/flinf. Maxima 5.9.0 gcl 2.5.0 mingw Windows 2000 Athlon  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 11:30 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 Clisp does not recognize floating point INF and NAN; those 2 values cannot be produced or recognized by Clisp's floating point implementation (which is all software for greater portability). So I can't see any way, short of modifying Clisp, for Maxima to accomodate INF and NAN in a way that is workable across Lisp implementations. We could probably convince the GCL team to modify GCL to handle INF and NAN; that seems a lesser challenge than getting Clisp modified.  Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20050626 17:11 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 In reference to the examples given in the original writeup, it is worth pointing out that GCL does indeed compute inf and nan; it just can't display them. Clisp refuses to compute the inf or nan, and there doesn't appear to be a way to compel it to do so. CMUCL is happy with inf and nan after :lisp (extensions::setfloatingpointmodes :traps nil) is executed.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=781726&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 17:23:39

Bugs item #781657, was opened at 20030801 12:30 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=781657&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Simplification Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Barton Willis (willisb) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) >Summary: binomial(x,x) => 1, but binomial(1,1) => 0 Initial Comment: binomial(x,x) simplifies to 1 yet binomial(1,1) simplifies to 0. (C1) binomial(x,x); (D1) 1 (C2) binomial(1,1); (D2) 0 I agree with (d2) because: 1/(1  x) = 1 + x + x^2 + ... = sum(binomial(1,k) (x) ^k,k,0,inf) implies binomial(1,k) = (1)^k, for integers k >= 0. In the recursion relation [Knuth Vol 1, 1.2.6 Eq. (20)] binomial(r,k) = binomial(r1,k) + binomial(r1,k1) set r > 0, k > 0, and use binomial(0,0) = 1 and binomial (1,0) = 1. From this we get binomial(1,1) = 0. Also see, Knuth Vol. 1 (third edition), Section 1.2.6 Exercise 9. There may be other approaches, but I think using the recursion relations and other identities to extend the domain of the binomial function is the best method. In short, I think the simplification binomial(x,x) ==> 1 should happen only for real x with x >= 0. Barton  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 11:23 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 If, and from the comments it appears it is not certain, we want to make special cases for binomial, we might get the desired effect by using an unevaluated conditional. E.g. stuff like binomial(x, x) > if x = 1 then 0 elseif realp(x) and x > 0 then 1 else 'binomial(x, x). Just a thought.  Comment By: Wolfgang Jenkner (wjenkner) Date: 20030821 22:16 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=581700 Unless I am mistaken, the (finite) limit of BINOMIAL(x,y) at some latticepoint (a,b) in Z^2 exists if and only if a >= 0. The "if" part is easy: Just write the binomial as GAMMA(x+1)/(GAMMA(y+x+1)*GAMMA(y+1)) and observe that Gamma is certainly continuous in the open right halfplane while 1/Gamma is continuous everywhere. Now assume a <= 1. We have the following identity (for the proof see the Maxima code below) %PI*BINOMIAL(x1,y)*BINOMIAL(x,y)*y = SIN(%PI*y)*SIN(%PI*(xy))/SIN(%PI*x) We have a1 >= 0, so we already know that lim BINOMIAL(x1,y) for (x,y)>(a,b) exists. If lim BINOMIAL(x,y) also existed, lim of the whole left hand side expression of this identity would exist. Now, looking at the right hand side expression we observe that it is Zperiodic with respect to x and y (except for a possible sign change). So lim of it at (a,b) exists if and only if lim of it at (0,0) exists, which is clearly not the case. Note: Strictly speaking, the identity is valid on, say, the complement of the union of the parallels through latticepoints to the first and second axis and to the median of the first quadrant, but this leaves us with enough space :) Nevertheless, of course, it's quite customary to define BINOMIAL(a,b)=a*(a1)* ... *(ab+1)/b! for all a in R and b in Z with b >= 0 (for b=0 the numerator is an empty product), in accordance with the binomial series. This definition happens to coincide with limit(limit(BINOMIAL(x,y),y,b),x,a). matchdeclare([%%u,%%v],true)$ sum_is_1(u,v):=is(u+v = 1)$ let(gamma(%%u)*gamma(%%v),%pi/sin(%pi*%%u),sum_is_1,%%u,%%v); let(%%v/gamma(%%u),1/gamma(%%v),sum_is_1,%%u,%%v); letrat:true; lhs:%pi*y*binomial(x,y)*binomial(x1,y); makegamma(%); letsimp(%); letsimp(%); num(%)/trigexpand(expand(denom(%))); lhs=%;  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20030814 10:16 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 I am not sure what you mean by "there may be other approaches". binomial(a,a) should simplify to Q if and only if the double limit exists: limit binomial(x,y) = Q x>a y>a A necessary (but in general not sufficient) condition for this to exist is that the two single limits exist and are equal: limit binomial(a,y) = limit binomial(x,a) = Q y>a x>a If the limit is not welldefined, then binomial(x,x) is not well defined, and it will cause incorrect results in some case or another to arbitrarily set it to some value. I don't know if this limit is or isn't welldefined. I do know that depending on identities with unspecified domains of validity is dangerous....  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=781657&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 17:14:27

Bugs item #777564, was opened at 20030725 08:13 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=777564&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) >Summary: subtraction ""(a,b) should work/FIX Initial Comment: Currently, the "" operator is defined as unary internally. However, it appears to the user as a binary operator as well. That is, the user can write "ab". Since the operator appears to be binary on the surface, it should also function as a binary operator in other contexts, in particular, I often want to do things like map("",foo,bar) or makelist(op(a,b),op,["+","","*"]) So mminus should be defined to work as a binary function  or perhaps even nary, where ""(a,b,c,...) == abc... That aligns the internal semantics with the surface syntax.  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20030804 22:18 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 Revised fix (DEFUN SIMPMIN (X VESTIGIAL Z) VESTIGIAL ;Ignored (COND ((null (cdr x)) 0) ; 0ary is OK, too ((NUMBERP (CADR X)) (MINUS (CADR X))) ;; Line below commented out because it might inhibit pattern matching sm 8/2003 ;; ((ATOM (CADR X)) (LIST '(MTIMES SIMP) 1 (CADR X))) ((null (cddr x)) (SIMPLIFYA (LIST '(MTIMES) 1 (SIMPLIFYA (CADR X) Z)) T)) (t (sub (cadr x) (addn (cddr x) z)))))  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20030804 22:15 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 Here's the fix. (DEFUN SIMPMIN (X VESTIGIAL Z) VESTIGIAL ;Ignored (IF (NULL (CDR x)) (WNAERR (CAAR L))) (COND ((NUMBERP (CADR X)) (MINUS (CADR X))) ;; Line below commented out because it might inhibit pattern matching sm 8/2003 ;; ((ATOM (CADR X)) (LIST '(MTIMES SIMP) 1 (CADR X))) ((null (cddr x)) (SIMPLIFYA (LIST '(MTIMES) 1 (SIMPLIFYA (CADR X) Z)) T)) (t (sub (cadr x) (addn (cddr x) z))))) PS The makelist example above shouldn't use the symbol 'op', which is a defined function...!  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=777564&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 17:13:17

Bugs item #776441, was opened at 20030723 12:25 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=776441&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None >Priority: 7 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: orderlessp not transitive Initial Comment: l: [z+x*(x+2)+v+1,z+x^2+x+v+1,z+(x+1)^2+v]; orderlessp(l[1],l[2]) => True orderlessp(l[2],l[3]) => True orderlessp(l[1],l[3]) => False !!! More concise example: q: x^2; r: (x+1)^2; s: x*(x+2); orderlessp(q,r) => true orderlessp(r,s) => true orderlessp(s,q) => true That is, s<q<r<s. The problem is somewhere in the internal great function, which by the way does some strange things, in particular: why does ordlist have an explicit check for mplus: (RETURN (COND ((= L2 0) (EQ CX 'MPLUS)) (Thanks to Barton for his contributions to tracking this down.) Maxima 5.9.0 GCL 2.5.0  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 11:13 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 Increasing the priority on this one  potential for subtle breakage in various contexts.  Comment By: Wolfgang Jenkner (wjenkner) Date: 20030808 17:50 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=581700 This one doesn't even involve MEXPT (I found it while checking one of the cases needed for proving that ORDLIST implements a consistent way of extending a given total order on a set of simplified expressions to their simplified sums and products. So it doesn't...) (C1) orderlessp(t/2,t); (D1) TRUE (C2) orderlessp(t,t+1/4); (D2) TRUE (C3) orderlessp(t/2,t+1/4); (D3) FALSE The point is that t/2 is ((MTIMES SIMP) ((RAT SIMP) 1 2) $t) and, lexicographically, we have (t, 1/2) < (t, 1), (t, 0) < (t, 1/4) and (t, 1/2, *) > (t, 1/4, +). So t corresponds to (t, 1) in the first comparison and to (t, 0) in the second comparison. Trouble. Floats instead of rational numbers give the same results, by the way. This one is more like Stavros's examples. (C1) orderlessp((x+1)^2,x^21); (D1) TRUE (C2) orderlessp(x^21,x^2); (D2) TRUE (C3) orderlessp((x+1)^2,x^2); (D3) FALSE Maybe powers whose exponents are positive integers should be treated like products. Actually, ORDMEXPT does this already but it isn't always called by ORDFN, for whatever reason. Anyway, here is the patch I'm currently experimenting with (it solves all the issues reported by Stavros and also the last example above, but in light of the other example it is certainly far from being a complete solution. It might even be totally wrong since I have no reason to believe that it is more than a simple palliative and that it would make things more consistent). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ cut ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Index: simp.lisp =================================================================== RCS file: /cvsroot/maxima/maxima/src/simp.lisp,v retrieving revision 1.5 diff C2 r1.5 simp.lisp *** simp.lisp 5 Mar 2003 01:36:26 0000 1.5  simp.lisp 8 Aug 2003 19:10:57 0000 *************** *** 1848,1854 **** ((MEMQ CX '(MPLUS MTIMES)) (COND ((MEMQ CY '(MPLUS MTIMES)) (ORDLIST (CDR X) (CDR Y) CX CY)) ! ((ALIKE1 (SETQ U (CAR (LAST X))) Y) (NOT (ORDHACK X))) ! ((AND (EQ CX 'MPLUS) (EQ CY 'MEXPT) (MPLUSP (CADR Y))) (NOT (ORDMEXPT Y X))) (T (GREAT U Y)))) ((MEMQ CY '(MPLUS MTIMES)) (NOT (ORDFN Y X)))  1848,1854  ((MEMQ CX '(MPLUS MTIMES)) (COND ((MEMQ CY '(MPLUS MTIMES)) (ORDLIST (CDR X) (CDR Y) CX CY)) ! ((AND (EQ CX 'MPLUS) (EQ CY 'MEXPT)) (NOT (ORDMEXPT Y X))) + ((ALIKE1 (SETQ U (CAR (LAST X))) Y) (NOT (ORDHACK X))) (T (GREAT U Y)))) ((MEMQ CY '(MPLUS MTIMES)) (NOT (ORDFN Y X))) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ cut ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20030804 22:35 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 More amusing consequences: q+r+s => (x+1)^2+x^2+x*(x+2) expand(%,0,0) => x^2+x*(x+2)+(x+1)^2 expand(%,0,0) => x*(x+2)+(x+1)^2+x^2 expand(%,0,0) => (x+1)^2+x^2+x*(x+2) q+r+srqs => (x+1)^2+x^2+x*(x+2)(x+1)^2x^2x* (x+2) expand(%,0,0) => x^2x^2 expand(%,0,0) => 0 I haven't found an example where simptimes fails, though. Fateman reports that this bug is also found in commercial Macsyma 2.4, and calls it a Methuselah bug because it has persisted for so long  presumably it has been around for 30+ years.  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20030725 08:26 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 This not only screws up SORT etc., but even basic simplification, since simplus, simptimes, etc. depend on great: q+r+s => (x+1)^2+x^2+x*(x+2) q+s+r => x^2+x*(x+2)+(x+1)^2 (q+s+r)(q+s+r) => x^2x^2 (q+s+r)(s+q+r) => x^2x^2 (q+r+s)(q+s+r) => x (x + 2)  x (x + 2)  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=776441&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 17:09:04

Bugs item #772283, was opened at 20030716 07:12 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=772283&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None >Status: Closed >Resolution: Fixed Priority: 5 Submitted By: Barton Willis (willisb) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: warnings from aload_mac Initial Comment: The function $aload_mac (defined in autol.lisp) has several unused parameters. Under cmucl, executing aload_mac gives warnings (C1) factorfacsum(x,x); In: LAMBDA (FILE &AUX *LOADVERBOSE* TEM TRIED) (LET ((IN FILE) ($SYSTEM #)) (DECLARE (SPECIAL $SYSTEM)) (SETQ TEM ($FILE_SEARCH1 FILE '#)) (AND TEM ($LOAD TEM))) ==> (COMMONLISP:LET ((IN FILE) ($SYSTEM #)) (DECLARE (SPECIAL $SYSTEM)) (SETQ TEM ($FILE_SEARCH1 FILE '#)) (AND TEM ($LOAD TEM))) Note: Variable IN defined but never used. #'(LAMBDA (FILE &AUX *LOADVERBOSE* TEM TRIED) (BLOCK $ALOAD_MAC (LET # # # #))) Note: Variable TRIED defined but never used. (D1) x (C2) quit(); The $aload_mac function is (defun $aload_mac (file &aux *loadverbose* tem tried) (let ((in file) ($system (list '(mlist) #+kcl (concatenate 'string si::*systemdirectory* "../ {src,share,share1,sharem}/foo.{mc,mac}")))) (declare (special $system)) (setq tem ($file_search1 file '((mlist) $FILE_SEARCH_MAXIMA $system))) (and tem ($load tem)))) I don't understand everything in this function, so I maybe missing something, but (defun $aload_mac (file &aux *loadverbose* tem tried) (declare (ignore tem tried)) ($load ($file_search1 file `((mlist) $file_search_maxima)))) might be a start for a replacement to aload_mac. When the file isn't found, $file_search1 halts with an error. I don't think (and tem ($load tem)) is needed. Barton  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 11:09 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 At some point post5.9.1, IN and TRIED were cut, so factorfacsum(x,x); no longer triggers the warnings shown above. It is doubtless possible to further clean up $ALOAD_MAC but that doesn't seem important enough for a bug report. Closing this report as fixed.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=772283&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 16:48:26

Bugs item #770794, was opened at 20030713 23:17 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=770794&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: dot expansion inconsistent Initial Comment: ma: matrix([a11,a12],[a21,a22])$ mb: matrix([b11,b12],[b21,b22])$ ma.mb => multiplied out (OK)  call it mab q.ma.mb => q.mab (OK) but ma.mb.q => ma.mb.q  that is, ma.mb doesn't get multiplied out. This is inconsistent, since "." is known to be associative (dotassoc = true).  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 10:48 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 Still present in 5.9.3cvs.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=770794&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060708 16:47:14

Bugs item #770258, was opened at 20030712 13:38 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=770258&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: redefining builtin functions (binom) Initial Comment: This is a documentation issue, an error message issue, and a semantics issue.... binom() is defined as an alias for binomial(), but this is not mentioned in the documentation. I wanted to use binom for the explicit form (in terms of factorials) and when I said binom(a,b):=... was surprised to get Warning  you are redefining the MACSYMA command BINOMIAL This redefines the verb form, but not the noun form, so if you now enter binom(2,x), you get back binomial(2,x), and NOT 2/((2x)!*x!). You can only get that using ev (...,binomial) or by explicitly using verbify(binomial). This is all rather unintuitive. I think that more "natural" ways to do things would be either: 1) forbid redefining builtins; or 2) when they're redefined, remove their simplification properties etc. and have them operate like normal functions; or 3) at least remove the alias which makes it function as the noun form on input  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060708 10:47 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 I'm inclined to recommend (2) and (3) because (1) conflicts with Maxima's general laissezfaire attitude.  Comment By: Raymond Toy (rtoy) Date: 20030729 09:10 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=28849 For option 1, perhaps we can use the package locks that are available in Clisp and (CVS) CMUCL. This will cause a (Lisp) error to occur on redefining symbols in the Maxima package.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=770258&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 17:31:06

Bugs item #769910, was opened at 20030711 16:22 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769910&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Assume Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: asksign asks redundant question Initial Comment: assume(a*b>0) assume(a+b>0) asksign(a*b) => pos (ok) asksign(a+b) => pos (ok) asksign(a*b*(a+b)) Is a b positive,negative, or zero? But it just answered that correctly! I *am* surprised, I must say, that it doesn't even get is (equal(a,0)) => false since a*b>0 immediately gives you a#0 and b#0. For that matter, assume(not equal (c*d,0)) *does* get is(equal(c,0)) => false. By the way, with those facts, you can deduce that a>0 and b>0, but that would be a feature request, not a bug report. Transcript below. (C1) assume(a*b>0,a+b>0); (D1) [a b > 0, b + a > 0] (C2) asksign(a*b); (D2) POS (C3) asksign(a+b); (D3) POS (C4) asksign(a*b*(a+b)); Is a b positive, negative, or zero? pos; (D4) POS (C5) is(equal(a,0)); MACSYMA was unable to evaluate the predicate: EQUAL(a, 0)  an error. Quitting. To debug this try DEBUGMODE (TRUE);) (C6) assume(not equal(c*d,0)); (D6) [NOT EQUAL(C d, 0)] (C7) is(equal(c,0)); (D7) FALSE (C8) facts(); (D8) [a b > 0, b + a > 0, NOT EQUAL(C, 0), NOT EQUAL(d, 0)] << note how it recorded not equal(c*d,0) >> Maxima 5.9.0 gcl 2.5.0  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20030711 20:19 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 Hmm. Further experimentation shows that with assume(a*b): asksign(a*b*c) asks the sign of a*b*c, not just c asksign(a^2*b) asks the sign of a^2*b and most surprisingly asksign atan(a*b) asks the sign of atan(a*b), not just a*b. This one is actually easy to fix: in signoddinc, use sign1 rather than sign. The first two cases can be explained by assuming that it doesn't check the sign of the a*b subexpression, since it doesn't "notice" it as a subexpression. It's not clear how you'd fix that: do you really want signmtimes to check all 2^nn2 subproducts of a lengthn product to see if they're in the database? This will rarely be useful and is expensive. Perhaps the database needs to keep a list of "terms included in products".... There are similar issues with sums. Consider assume (m>n,n>0); sign(mn)=>pos, but sign(mn+1)=>pnz. The original problem can probably be solved by rechecking the sign of the product of the odds before returning from sign1, but you have to be careful to avoid an infinite recursion here.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769910&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 15:43:21

Bugs item #769988, was opened at 20030711 21:22 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769988&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Warning for nonpolynomial algsys Initial Comment: Solve for multiple variables calls Algsys. As it says (clearly!) in the documentation, this only works for polynomial equations. It would be useful, I think, if we would give a warning (or an error?) when a nonpolynomial equation were passed to algsys, e.g. (C1) solve(sqrt(a^2+b^2)=0,[a,b]) Warning: Solve/Algsys can only solve for multiple variables when the equations are polynomial. The equation sqrt(a^2+b^2)=0 is not polynomial. (D1) [] This is a common beginner's error, I think, encouraged of course by the fact that the command is called "solve"  you'd think it could solve any simple equation....  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769988&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:29:34

Bugs item #932095, was opened at 20040408 17:28 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=932095&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: ode2 redundant asksign Initial Comment: ode2('diff(y,x,2)=x^a,y,x) asks whether a+1 is zero or nonzero. Answer zero. It then asks whether a+2 is zero or nonzero! What is happening: Ode2 calls integrate twice. Integrate calls asksign each time, and apparently integrate resets the asksign database each time.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=932095&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:27:38

Bugs item #1034212, was opened at 20040924 11:24 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=1034212&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Assume >Group: To be reviewed Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: asksign(rat(x)) => error Initial Comment: asksign(rat(x)) => fatal error asksign(rat(0)) => fatal error Maxima version: 5.9.0.9beta2 Maxima build date: 10:50 7/27/2004 host type: i686pcmingw32 lispimplementationtype: Kyoto Common Lisp lispimplementationversion: GCL 2.6.3  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060707 08:26 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 Not observed in 5.9.3cvs / sbcl 0.9.9, clisp 2.38, gcl 2.6.7 (all Linux). Need to test on Windows. If not observed there we can close this report. Marking this report for followup accordingly.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=1034212&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:25:47

Bugs item #769905, was opened at 20030711 15:59 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769905&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Assume Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 4 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) >Summary: asksign(sin(x)<2) doesn't know Initial Comment: is/asksign don't know the ranges of the common trig functions: is ( sin(x)<2 ) => unknown is ( atan(x) < %pi) => unknown etc.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769905&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:22:42

Bugs item #707256, was opened at 20030320 18:02 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=707256&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Assume Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: asksign/signum of ind and infinity/FIX Initial Comment: signum(ind) and signum(infinity) return noun forms. Since signum works correctly on inf (1), minf (1), and und (error), it might as well give errors for ind and infinity, too. The fix is in sign1 (compar.lisp). OLD>>>>>>>>> (if (eq x '$UND) (if limitp '$PNZ (merror "SIGN called on UND."))) NEW>>>>>>>>> (if (memq x '($UND $IND $INFINITY)) (if limitp '$PNZ (merror "The sign of ~:M is undefined" x)))  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20040223 16:57 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 Actually, if you're computing with IND etc., perhaps signum (ind) should be ind rather than an error. Signum(infinity) should probably be an error because the sign of complex infinities isn't defined.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=707256&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:21:50

Bugs item #626607, was opened at 20021021 17:30 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=626607&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Assume Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Defint doesn't clean up asksign db Initial Comment: >> integrate(x^n,x,1,inf); << Is n positive, negative, or zero? >> pos; << Integral is divergent So far, so good. Now: >> asksign(n); << pos; That is, the asksign database still contains the fact that n>0. This should have been removed when defint exited. This problem doesn't happen when the integral is convergent.  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060707 08:21 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 This is an example of a more general problem which is that the asksign database is not cleaned up in case of an error. Although it could be fixed in this specific case by making defint catch the error and clean up the database, that doesn't do anything for other situations. A general solution to this problem would be useful. Recategorizing to "Lisp Core  Assume" accordingly.  Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20050821 20:03 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 The problem is one or both of 2 things: (1) defint calls merror instead of returning inf; (2) defint doesn't clean up the assumption in case of an error. I'd rather see defint return inf or und or ind instead of calling merror here. But also defint should trap merror (don't know how to do that) and cleanup. Either one of those changes would fix the particular problem mentioned here, but I think we should fix both.  Comment By: Alexander VIDYBIDA (vidybida) Date: 20041027 08:14 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=927510 The obsolete info, which have to be removed after estimated a divergent integral, can be kicked out by "IS" oporator: (%i1) integrate(EXP(la*t)*la,t,0,INF); Is la positive, negative, or zero? n; Integral is divergent  an error. Quitting. To debug this try DEBUGMODE(TRUE); (%i2) integrate(EXP(la*t)*la,t,0,INF); Integral is divergent  an error. Quitting. To debug this try DEBUGMODE(TRUE); HOW DOES IT KNOW ? (%i3) is(la<0); MACSYMA was unable to evaluate the predicate: la < 0  an error. Quitting. To debug this try DEBUGMODE(TRUE); (%i4) integrate(EXP(la*t)*la,t,0,INF); Integral is divergent  an error. Quitting. To debug this try DEBUGMODE(TRUE); HOW DOES IT KNOW ? (%i5) is(la>0); MACSYMA was unable to evaluate the predicate: la > 0  an error. Quitting. To debug this try DEBUGMODE(TRUE); (%i6) integrate(EXP(la*t)*la,t,0,INF); Integral is divergent  an error. Quitting. To debug this try DEBUGMODE(TRUE); HOW DOES IT KNOW ? (%i7) is(la=0); (%o7) FALSE NOW THE INFO IS KICKED OUT (%i8) integrate(EXP(la*t)*la,t,0,INF); Is la positive, negative, or zero? p; (%o8) 1  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=626607&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:12:41

Bugs item #769900, was opened at 20030711 15:50 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769900&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Assume Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: asksign(a^b) WRONG! Initial Comment: asksign(a^b); Is a pos neg or zero? neg; => neg It does not ask whether b is an integer, or if it's even or odd!!! I believe the correct behavior is: if b is an even integer => pos if b is an odd integer => neg if b is not an integer, ask user about the sign of a^b directly  I suppose we could ask if b is rational, and if so whether it is even/odd (pos), odd/odd (neg), or odd/even (undefined  is actually complex), but why get into that mess?  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=769900&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:11:18

Bugs item #767953, was opened at 20030708 12:07 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767953&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Predicate evaluation internal error with bad arg Initial Comment: l: [a+b+c]$ while l do 1; gives an internal error: Error: Bad plist ($a $b $C) Error signalled by QUEUE+P. While should be checking whether its argument is valid. The idiom while (list)... of course comes from Lisp and is not correct in Maxima; it should be while l # [] ... But it should give a reasonable error, not an indecipherable internal error.  Comment By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Date: 20030711 15:23 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=588346 Simpler way to get this error: is([a+b+c]) Of course, this is less likely to be entered by a user.... The root of the error seems to be in mevalp1, whose last clause assumes that an evaluated condition is of the form ((predicate) arg1 arg2) if it is not one of the known relational predicates (=, >, etc.). It's not clear to me what is going on in the last clause of mevalp2  and what isp, truep, and semant are trying to do. Note that semant looks for a VAR property, but I can't find anyplace in the Maxima code that sets a VAR property. My guess is that this was intended to allow not just relational assertions like a>b but also logical assertions like implies(a,b), but that this was never fully implemented. But I am just guessing.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767953&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:09:57

Bugs item #767556, was opened at 20030707 23:00 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767556&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Distributing operations over = Initial Comment: x * (a=b) => x*a = x*b x + (a=b) => x+a = x+b (a=b)^2 => a^2 = b^2 so why do we have x . (a=b) => x . (a=b) (??) rather than x . a = x . b (a=b)^^2 => (a=b)^^2 (??) etc. I do understand why we have f(a=b) => f(a=b) rather than f(a)=f(b) ... because in general f may be an operation on equations. Some operations nonetheless do distribute over "=", notably diff, taylor, limit, cabs, rectform, realpart, imagpart, etc. integrate is particularly clever, adding an integration constant though mathematical functions such as sin, log, etc. do not.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767556&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:09:21

Bugs item #767528, was opened at 20030707 22:12 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767528&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 2 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: op(box(a)) bogus Initial Comment: op(box(a)) => MBOX (internal name) i.e. ?mbox op(box(a,b)) => MLABOX (internal name) i.e. ?mlabox It is not clear how to fix this because $box is a function, and there are different operators for different numbers of args (why?). Anyway, it is not terribly important.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767528&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:08:56

Bugs item #767401, was opened at 20030707 16:26 Message generated for change (Settings changed) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767401&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core  Assume Group: None Status: Open Resolution: None Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: Some problems with featurep/complex Initial Comment: declare(rrr,real) declare(zzz,complex) featurep(x,real) => false (!!) With domain=real, should be true. featurep(%i,imaginary) => false (!!) Should be true. featurep(cabs(zzz),real) unnecessarily asks whether SQRT(REALPART(zzz)^2+IMAGPART(zzz)^2) is positive or zero; similarly for sqrt(abs(x)+abs(y)). Though featurep(sqrt(x),real) asks x pos/neg/z and gives correct results, featurep(sqrt(x),imaginary) doesn't ask the questions and returns false.  Note that (as best I understand its semantics), featurep *correctly* gives featurep(rrr,complex)=>true, etc. I believe that featurep is supposed to report whether the range of values of an expression is a subset of the set defined. Since rrr is real, and the reals are a subset of the complexes, 3 is also complex.  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767401&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 14:06:10

Bugs item #716761, was opened at 20030407 08:42 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=716761&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None >Status: Closed >Resolution: Fixed Priority: 5 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: i% displays as i\% with display2d:false Initial Comment: The symbol i% displays as i\% with display2d:false but as i% with display2d:true. Apparently grind thinks that % is a special character that must be quoted. I noticed this because it happens that jacobi_p uses i% as a summation index.  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060707 08:06 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 Committed r1.16 src/grind.lisp, now treats % as an ordinary character (without backslash).  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=716761&group_id=4933 
From: SourceForge.net <noreply@so...>  20060707 05:55:28

Bugs item #767362, was opened at 20030707 15:09 Message generated for change (Comment added) made by robert_dodier You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767362&group_id=4933 Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, including the initial issue submission, for this request, not just the latest update. >Category: Lisp Core Group: None >Status: Closed >Resolution: Wont Fix Priority: 3 Submitted By: Stavros Macrakis (macrakis) Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody) Summary: ''' (three singlequotes) useless Initial Comment: '''x acts like 'x. That is confusing and useless. Confusing because you expect it to parse either as '(''x) or as ''('x), and useless because you can always write 'x. To choose between the alternative parses, note that ''('(x)) is also useless (it is always equivalent to simply x). So the only reasonable interpretation of '''x is '(''x). That is actually useful. It means evaluate x at read time, and not at eval time.  >Comment By: Robert Dodier (robert_dodier) Date: 20060706 23:55 Message: Logged In: YES user_id=501686 '''x = ''('x) because the Maxima parser is greedy. I'm pretty strongly opposed to fudging the parser to handle a very minor special case, because at present it is straightforward to explain why things happen as observed. Closing this report as "won't fix".  You can respond by visiting: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=104933&aid=767362&group_id=4933 