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From: Lex <va...@co...> - 2005-12-12 01:33:28
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On 12-dec-05, at 02:05, Bill Catambay wrote: > I was working with a developer who makes a VT emulator for Mac OS X, > and he wanted to override all of the Fkeys to allow them to map to the > proper VT terminal keys. He said he was unable to override Apple's > Fkeys, and I submitted that as an OS X bug. The bug was marked as > "Duplicate", meaning that I'm not the only one who submitted it. Well, it should be possible somehow, probably with some 'less standard' code (aka 'dirty tricks'). Games like MOHAA, Max Payne and Quake3 don't let Dashboard & friends override the F-keys. I don't know if the released code for Quake3 includes Mac stuff, but if so it may be interesting to look into that. Anyhow, I too submitted a suggestion to Apple to ask for a way to let certain applications override these keys. Especially for X11 this would be most useful. > NOTE: I've made about 4 posts in the last 2 days, and it looks like none > of them are going through... again. :-/ This one did ;) Lex |
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From: Bill C. <tr...@ex...> - 2005-12-12 22:04:02
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At 12:49 AM +0000 on 12/12/05, Lex wrote: >So here's a rather urgent problem with the Mac version: I assigned F8 to >F11 to Dashboard and Expos=C8. They override Aleph One's functions that are >assigned to the same keys. I would expect it to be the other way around... >I don't know how easy it is to fix this, but I believe it should be within >the lines of capturing keyboard input before it is processed by the OS. >This must be possible because most other games I know override Dashboard & >co, even though they're made before OS X 10.3. >Another option would be to allow the user to configure _all_ keys within >A1, not just the movement keys and stuff, but that may be a bit overkill. I was working with a developer who makes a VT=20 emulator for Mac OS X, and he wanted to override=20 all of the Fkeys to allow them to map to the=20 proper VT terminal keys. He said he was unable=20 to override Apple's Fkeys, and I submitted that=20 as an OS X bug. The bug was marked as=20 "Duplicate", meaning that I'm not the only one=20 who submitted it. I'm able to use F10 thru F12 in the emulator by=20 turning those Expose keys off. Nothing I do,=20 unfortunately, gives me access to F14 and F15.=20 The OS insists on making them only volume=20 controls no matter what the application, which is=20 pretty lame. If they were to only be volume=20 controls, than Apple should re-label the keys as=20 such. The point of an "Fkey" is that it is=20 assignable. Stupid Apple. -- Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild mailto:tr...@ex... http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ |
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From: Lex <va...@co...> - 2005-12-13 16:15:13
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On 13-dec-05, at 12:52, Solra Bizna wrote: > On 12 Dec 2005 01:33:22 -0000, Lex <va...@co...> wrote: > Well, it should be possible somehow, probably with some 'less standard' > code (aka 'dirty tricks'). ... > > If I remember correctly, this is tied into "grabbing" the screen, > > which the games you mention do, but Aleph One doesn't. The response to > > implementing such was somewhat negative, if I continue to remember > > correctly, as it would also prevent command-tabbing out. Err, has anyone ever wanted to cmd-tab out during a game? I agree that it's useful to be able to cmd-tab out of the main interface (e.g. to check the ping of a server ;)), but not during a game when SPNKR missiles are flying towards you. So I'd suggest to 'grab the screen' when a game starts. If there really are people who want to use cmd-tab or Dashboard during a game, a checkbox could be added to the preferences. |
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From: Bill C. <tr...@ex...> - 2005-12-13 17:55:30
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At 4:14 PM +0000 on 12/13/05, Lex wrote: > >Err, has anyone ever wanted to cmd-tab out during a game? I agree that >it's useful to be able to cmd-tab out of the main interface (e.g. to check >the ping of a server ;)), but not during a game when SPNKR missiles are >flying towards you. So I'd suggest to 'grab the screen' when a game >starts. If there really are people who want to use cmd-tab or Dashboard >during a game, a checkbox could be added to the preferences. I do it *all* the time... especially (and often) when I have iChat sessions going. I don't usually do it in the *heat* of battle, but there are plenty of lulls where I do (and would prefer to be able to Cmd-Tab out versus having to save the game, then wait for the awful load time to get back into the game). -- Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild mailto:tr...@ex... http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ |
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From: Br'fin <br...@ma...> - 2005-12-13 19:02:11
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On Dec 13, 2005, at 12:55 PM, Bill Catambay wrote: > At 4:14 PM +0000 on 12/13/05, Lex wrote: > > >> >> Err, has anyone ever wanted to cmd-tab out during a game? I agree >> that >> it's useful to be able to cmd-tab out of the main interface (e.g. >> to check >> the ping of a server ;)), but not during a game when SPNKR >> missiles are >> flying towards you. So I'd suggest to 'grab the screen' when a game >> starts. If there really are people who want to use cmd-tab or >> Dashboard >> during a game, a checkbox could be added to the preferences. > > I do it *all* the time... especially (and often) when I have iChat > sessions going. I don't usually do it in the *heat* of battle, but > there are plenty of lulls where I do (and would prefer to be able > to Cmd-Tab out versus having to save the game, then wait for the > awful load time to get back into the game). > -- > > Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild > mailto:tr...@ex... http:// > excaliburworld.com/emr/ You know... It sounds to me like the Macintosh side of things needs to support jumping between fullscreen and windowed mode. Of course with regards to the Mac UI that means a whole bunch of things ned to be altered or tweaked. Either polishing of the in-game UI, or actually dropping out of the full screen UI partially in order to nicely do Aqua dialog and file browsing. -Jeremy Parsons http://alephmodular.sourceforge.net/ |
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From: Bill C. <tr...@ex...> - 2005-12-13 19:23:20
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At 2:02 PM -0500 on 12/13/05, Br'fin wrote: >It sounds to me like the Macintosh side of things needs to support >jumping between fullscreen and windowed mode. Of course with regards >to the Mac UI that means a whole bunch of things ned to be altered >or tweaked. Either polishing of the in-game UI, or actually dropping >out of the full screen UI partially in order to nicely do Aqua >dialog and file browsing. Noooo!!!! Just the opposite. The Windows version needs a change to match the Mac side. I don't play in full screen mode, but I still don't want my desktop showing up during game play. It's distracting, and takes away from the atmosphere of the game. All black around the game window is the way it should stay. I wish the Windows version would work the same way. Cmd-Tab works better, because I only use it at points where it's okay to "walk away" from the action, but when I'm in the action, please, no desktop junk in the background. Now, if you are talking about an *additional* option, then I'm not against it, although I'd never use it. But if you are talking about changing the way non-fullscreen works, than I am strongly against it. -- Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild mailto:tr...@ex... http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ |
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From: Timothy C. <da...@ma...> - 2005-12-14 22:02:52
Attachments:
smime.p7s
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On Dec 13, 2005, at 2:23 PM, Bill Catambay wrote: > Just the opposite. The Windows version needs a change to match the > Mac side. I don't play in full screen mode, but I still don't want > my desktop showing up during game play. It's distracting, and > takes away from the atmosphere of the game. All black around the > game window is the way it should stay. That sounds like "full screen" to me. I think there are 2 things going on here: "full screen" play, as in, "don't show anything but Marathon," and "fill the screen," as in, "expand the image to the maximum possible on my screen." Is this true? If it's not possible to play in "full screen" without also having it "fill the screen," that sounds like a *real* problem that needs to be addressed; otherwise, I think we're just struggling with terminology. Timothy Collett -- "Nothing takes the taste out of peanut butter quite like unrequited love." --Charlie Brown |
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From: Bill C. <tr...@ex...> - 2005-12-14 22:16:42
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At 5:02 PM -0500 on 12/14/05, Timothy Collett wrote: >I think there are 2 things going on here: "full screen" play, as in, >"don't show anything but Marathon," and "fill the screen," as in, >"expand the image to the maximum possible on my screen." Is this >true? > >If it's not possible to play in "full screen" without also having it >"fill the screen," that sounds like a *real* problem that needs to >be addressed; otherwise, I think we're just struggling with >terminology. No, it's more than terminology. There is a conspiracy force that is trying to get the Mac version to behave like the Windows version in windowed-mode. The Mac version displays a black border around the game window in windowed-mode (aka, your definition of "full screen"), but the Windows version does not (shows desktop clutter and other app windows). The Mac full screen implementation is better because it keeps the player immersed in the game without distraction. There is a handful of evil minds at work (maybe just *one*) trying to undo that. (hmmm... looks like I've joined the rank of name-callers :P) -- Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild mailto:tr...@ex... http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ |
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From: Jon N. <jon...@ya...> - 2005-12-14 22:47:11
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--- Bill Catambay <tr...@ex...> wrote: > No, it's more than terminology. There is a conspiracy force > that is trying to get the Mac version to behave like the Windows > version in windowed-mode. Windowed mode means it's in a window. Whatever you may think is "better", and regardless of what other options may very validly be requested, windowed mode should be put in a window that can be managed like any other window. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com |
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From: Bill C. <tr...@ex...> - 2005-12-14 22:50:13
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At 2:47 PM -0800 on 12/14/05, Jon Niehof wrote: >Windowed mode means it's in a window. Whatever you may think is >"better", and regardless of what other options may very validly >be requested, windowed mode should be put in a window that can >be managed like any other window. Well, if you want to get technical, *everything* is in a window. I would argue, however, that Windowed-mode in Marathon was not designed for what you state above. -- Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild mailto:tr...@ex... http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ |
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From: Timothy C. <da...@ma...> - 2005-12-14 22:52:27
Attachments:
smime.p7s
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On Dec 14, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jon Niehof wrote: > --- Bill Catambay <tr...@ex...> wrote: > >> No, it's more than terminology. There is a conspiracy force >> that is trying to get the Mac version to behave like the > Windows >> version in windowed-mode. > > Windowed mode means it's in a window. Whatever you may think is > "better", and regardless of what other options may very validly > be requested, windowed mode should be put in a window that can > be managed like any other window. I completely agree with that--thus, my attempt to disambiguate the terminology. Bill, I don't think there's any great "pro-Windows conspiracy" here-- I just think that you call what you're looking for something different than they do, which is why things are not getting done the way you'd like. Timothy Collett -- "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein |
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From: Michael D. A. <mdm...@gm...> - 2005-12-15 03:38:44
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On 12/14/05, Timothy Collett <da...@ma...> wrote: > On Dec 14, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jon Niehof wrote: > > > --- Bill Catambay <tr...@ex...> wrote: > > > >> No, it's more than terminology. There is a conspiracy force > >> that is trying to get the Mac version to behave like the > > Windows > >> version in windowed-mode. > > > > Windowed mode means it's in a window. Whatever you may think is > > "better", and regardless of what other options may very validly > > be requested, windowed mode should be put in a window that can > > be managed like any other window. > > I completely agree with that--thus, my attempt to disambiguate the > terminology. > > Bill, I don't think there's any great "pro-Windows conspiracy" here-- > I just think that you call what you're looking for something > different than they do, which is why things are not getting done the > way you'd like. How about this compromise: have two preferences fill vs full and windowed vs f*ll mode. The later could be toggles via a key stroke in game (Alt-Enter is the convention on Windows; I don't know about Mac). I don't think the former needs a keystroke because most users will probably prefer either fill or full and will have no use for the other, but quite a few may have a use for going to and from windowed mode. One issue with this is that when in Windowed mode, AO would need to grab the mouse. I guess AO could grab the mouse only when not at the main screen and not paused. Michael D. Adams mdm...@gm... |
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From: Alexei S. <my...@pr...> - 2005-12-15 06:05:44
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How we did it in Myth II, is we have two checkboxes in preferences. One is "Windowed Mode", the other is "Switch Resolutions". (Switch Resolutions is always off if Windowed Mode is on.) If Windowed Mode is on, then it runs in a Window, just like SDL does. Otherwise it covers the whole screen. If Switch Resolutions is on, then whatever the Res you have set in preferences is, your monitor will be switched to that when in-game. Otherwise, your monitor resolution will remain as is, and the game will play with a black border around it, with the small square in the middle. This solves both needs. -Alexei Svitkine Project Magma |
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From: Gregory S. <wo...@tr...> - 2005-12-15 14:51:06
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That would certainly be more straightforward than what's in there now. "Mode" is a particularly bad word to use in a UI, I'd call it "Run in a window". "Switch Resolutions" isn't great either but I can't think of anything better at the moment. First one to send me patches to fix/add this (NIBs/SDL) gets a cookie! Btw, I did check and Mac OS X SDL running fullscreen (real fullscreen) takes over the window manager (Expose/command-tab) keys correctly. A second cookie to anyone who fixes NIBs to work this way. Gregory On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Alexei Svitkine wrote: > How we did it in Myth II, is we have two checkboxes in preferences. One is > "Windowed Mode", the other is "Switch Resolutions". (Switch Resolutions is > always off if Windowed Mode is on.) If Windowed Mode is on, then it runs in a > Window, just like SDL does. Otherwise it covers the whole screen. If Switch > Resolutions is on, then whatever the Res you have set in preferences is, your > monitor will be switched to that when in-game. Otherwise, your monitor > resolution will remain as is, and the game will play with a black border > around it, with the small square in the middle. This solves both needs. > > -Alexei Svitkine > Project Magma |
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From: Benjamin B. <bb...@ec...> - 2005-12-15 07:55:11
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doesnt marathon have the "half size" and "quater size" options anyway (accessable vie function keys) admittadly they dont change the HUD size, but they do change the main game window (and they could easily be made to change the HUD aswell ben Alexei Svitkine wrote: > How we did it in Myth II, is we have two checkboxes in preferences. > One is "Windowed Mode", the other is "Switch Resolutions". (Switch > Resolutions is always off if Windowed Mode is on.) If Windowed Mode > is on, then it runs in a Window, just like SDL does. Otherwise it > covers the whole screen. If Switch Resolutions is on, then whatever > the Res you have set in preferences is, your monitor will be switched > to that when in-game. Otherwise, your monitor resolution will remain > as is, and the game will play with a black border around it, with the > small square in the middle. This solves both needs. > > -Alexei Svitkine > Project Magma > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Marathon-devel mailing list > Mar...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel |
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From: Gregory S. <wo...@tr...> - 2005-12-15 14:43:00
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On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Benjamin Burrowes wrote: > doesnt marathon have the "half size" and "quater size" options anyway > (accessable vie function keys) admittadly they dont change the HUD size, but > they do change the main game window (and they could easily be made to change > the HUD aswell > > ben The 50% / 75% options only work in software mode. The HUD is never scaled anyway, so you always get a black border if you're above 640x480. I don't recall ever seeing a quarter size option. Gregory |
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From: Gregory S. <wo...@tr...> - 2005-12-14 22:51:41
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Bill Catambay wrote: > At 5:02 PM -0500 on 12/14/05, Timothy Collett wrote: > > >> I think there are 2 things going on here: "full screen" play, as in, "don't >> show anything but Marathon," and "fill the screen," as in, "expand the >> image to the maximum possible on my screen." Is this true? >> >> If it's not possible to play in "full screen" without also having it "fill >> the screen," that sounds like a *real* problem that needs to be addressed; >> otherwise, I think we're just struggling with terminology. > > No, it's more than terminology. There is a conspiracy force that is trying > to get the Mac version to behave like the Windows version in windowed-mode. Well, to get it to behave like *every other Mac OS X game* as well. But yes, more important than that is to have consistent behavior, where possible and appropriate, among the platforms. I don't advocate changing Carbon NIBs, of course. But changing the SDL code to add this is not something I endorse, and although some are still in denial, SDL is the future. > The Mac version displays a black border around the game window in > windowed-mode (aka, your definition of "full screen"), but the Windows > version does not (shows desktop clutter and other app windows). The Mac full > screen implementation is better because it keeps the player immersed in the > game without distraction. There is a handful of evil minds at work (maybe > just *one*) trying to undo that. If you want immersion, you check "Full screen"...if you want to run in a window, you uncheck it. If that's confusing to you, we can change the checkbox to say "Run in a window" and invert the sense. Having to choose two resolutions (set my monitor to this res, but run the game at this one) would be confusing, and of limited appeal. Having different behaviors between Windows/Linux and Mac OS X (particularly when the latter behavior does not follow its host OS convention) is bad for users. > (hmmm... looks like I've joined the rank of name-callers :P) Worse, you've joined a group of people who use moral terms like "evil" in their arguments ;) I will call behaviors silly when appropriate, but I do try to avoid calling the people who advocate them names on this list. > Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild > mailto:tr...@ex... > http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ Gregory |
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From: Lex <va...@co...> - 2005-12-14 00:11:32
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On 13-dec-05, at 18:55, Bill Catambay wrote: > At 4:14 PM +0000 on 12/13/05, Lex wrote: > > > Err, has anyone ever wanted to cmd-tab out during a game? I agree that > > it's useful to be able to cmd-tab out of the main interface (e.g. to > > check the ping of a server ;)), but not during a game when SPNKR > > missiles are flying towards you. So I'd suggest to 'grab the screen' > > when a game starts. If there really are people who want to use cmd-tab > > or Dashboard during a game, a checkbox could be added to the > > preferences. > > I do it *all* the time... especially (and often) when I have iChat > sessions going. I don't usually do it in the *heat* of battle, but > there are plenty of lulls where I do (and would prefer to be able to > Cmd-Tab out versus having to save the game, then wait for the awful load > time to get back into the game). I just checked and in Quake3, they implemented command-tab as 'hide the game and show the Finder'. A second cmd-tab will then of course show the app chooser window. This seems a good compromise to me: you can suspend the game _and_ use the keys otherwise assigned to Dashboard & co. Now I'm hoping nobody wants to use those during a game, but then again, you could always command-tab to the Finder first. |
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From: Gregory S. <wo...@tr...> - 2005-12-14 21:38:30
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I'm not getting messages from marathon-devel right now, so no cute quotes, but it really is SDL versions that work the correct way. In solo games you can alt-P to go to windowed mode, then tab out of the game. In net games alt-enter toggles between windowed and full screen. We should have alt-P release/capture the mouse in net games, and the keys for Mac builds should be changed to be more Mac friendly (command-P and command-M are the convention), but the current Carbon NIBs behavior of drawing a black border around the screen even when you don't have full screen selected is just silly. No other game works that way, and only one user seems to want that behavior :) Not grabbing the screen when you have full screen selected isn't right either. As long as there's a way to toggle between full screen and windowed modes (and thus to tab out), we should be truly capturing the screen in fullscreen mode, which would solve the Expose problems. For a point of reference I will verify tonight that the Mac OS X SDL build (which does capture the screen) catches Expose keys before they get through to the OS. Gregory |
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From: Bill C. <tr...@ex...> - 2005-12-14 22:05:28
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At 4:38 PM -0500 on 12/14/05, Gregory Smith wrote: >I'm not getting messages from marathon-devel right now, so no cute >quotes, but it really is SDL versions that work the correct way. > >In solo games you can alt-P to go to windowed mode, then tab out of >the game. In net games alt-enter toggles between windowed and full >screen. We should have alt-P release/capture the mouse in net games, >and the keys for Mac builds should be changed to be more Mac >friendly (command-P and command-M are the convention), but the >current Carbon NIBs behavior of drawing a black border around the >screen even when you don't have full screen selected is just silly. I completely disagree with that. As I mentioned in my last email, the black border is appropriate for keeping the focus on the game, without the distractions of desktop clutter showing right next to it. I tried playing EMR on windows in windowed-mode, and it completely loses the effect of taking you to a different world. Hard to feel like I'm in Camelot, when I see Outlook mail and a Windows taskbar, and a bunch of other stuff that has nothing to do with the game. As I also mentioned, I don't like playing in full screen mode... I just never liked the feel of having the game that large. So again, I re-iterate that it's is really important to keep the black border in windowed-mode. Arguing against it by name-calling (aka, "silly") is weak. I understand that everyone has their preferences, but it is really critical to our scenario to keep the desktop hidden when immersing the player into the game. >No other game works that way, and only one user seems to want that behavior :) Well, gee, cannot argue with Mr God who has apparently honed in on every person in the universe. Sounds like the Mac NIBs version will continue to be the better version (unless, I suppose, someone decides to downgrade it to SDL playability). -- Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild mailto:tr...@ex... http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ |
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From: Bill C. <tr...@ex...> - 2005-12-14 22:17:58
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At 2:05 PM -0800 on 12/14/05, Bill Catambay wrote: >As I also mentioned, I don't like playing in full screen mode... I >just never liked the feel of having the game that large. So again, >I re-iterate that it's is really important to keep the black border >in windowed-mode. Using the proper terminology, I meant "Fill the screen" mode above. -- Bill Catambay The Marathon Map Makers Guild mailto:tr...@ex... http://excaliburworld.com/emr/ |
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From: Solra B. <sb...@te...> - 2005-12-13 11:53:07
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