I know, I know. I do not mean any misrespect of any kind. But I think that the idea is to find a correct balance between the users most expectations (front end) and the design requirements and enhancements (mostly backends, refactoring, etc...).

Don't worry, I totally understand the position of everyone.
In fact to be honest with you guys, I feel like v1.3 really takes a lot of time to be released. I understand that you want to be sure it is very well tested (i expect not less), but still. And I think that's because its extensible roadmap. We make the same mistakes here in the team I work with, and it's always the same thing: estimate a date of a release with a defined roadmap. And a few weeks before the due date, there's always some new features to add into it. Which sort of slow down the whole process (new tests, integration tests, impacts, refactoring, bla bla bla...).
For me, you should release the 1.3 as is, turn that page for good, and continue the discussion of the GUI for another release. We will not die really if we don't have a new GUI now; we survived without it till now after all.

I'm just saying.



On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Roland Becker <roland@atrol.de> wrote:
> "Users don’t care about code conventions, spaces, api cleanup, db api or any
> of this stuff."
> That's also what Rolf said about beeing agile.

Agile does not mean that MantisBT developers don't have to care about it.
You should respect this work the same way you respect the UI work.
We will end in mess and technical debt without it.

Roland

> Alain D'EURVEILHER <alain.deurveilher@gmail.com> hat am 26. August 2014 um
> 09:02 geschrieben:
>
>
> "Users don’t care about code conventions, spaces, api cleanup, db api or
> any of this stuff. They want a product that works, has functionality they
> need, and looks decent."
>
> Exactly! I wouldn't say no more :-) That's also what Rolf said about beeing
> agile.
>
> AlainD.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Victor Boctor <vboctor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Thanks Rolf and Alan for the feedback.
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > - Rafik’s work is based on one of the most popular frameworks, it involves
> > months of intense work, and gets the job done nicely.  I don’t see a reason
> > to reset this work for some incremental improvements from a perspective
> > that only you hold.
> >
> > - Rafik’s work covers all pages, not just the main pages (your a..e), it
> > also includes management, installation, and even deprecated pages like
> > news, etc.  So it is comprehensive and there is no jumping between modern
> > and legacy experience.  Again, that is one of the reason it is a lot of
> > work.
> >
> > - Making every discussion so difficult, not appreciating others work, and
> > always having reasons why changes can’t go in will generally result in
> > losing contributors and not making progress.
> >
> > - Post 1.3 (v2.0), we are going to break plugins compatibility.  Plugins
> > can be easily adapted to follow the lead of the core Mantis in terms of the
> > UI.
> >
> > - If there are bugs in the filter box or something else, I’m sure Rafik
> > would be happy to handle it as part of the pull request.
> >
> > - I never knew that we were trying to optimize for the size of the css.  I
> > thought we just don’t like writing much CSS, hence, we had smallish size.
> > Heck, if we were, then the first thing we should have done would have been
> > to minify these css files.  Given the scale of use of a Mantis instance and
> > the nature of 1st load vs. Nth load, most of these files will be cached
> > anyway.
> >
> > - I have seen a lot of users complain about Mantis look as a show stopper
> > for using it.  I have also seen us have several failing attempts to
> > modernize the UI.  So let’s not screw this one up.  As Robert and other
> > said, it is the best thing that happened to our users recently.  Users
> > don’t care about code conventions, spaces, api cleanup, db api or any of
> > this stuff. They want a product that works, has functionality they need,
> > and looks decent.
> >
> > - I personally think that we spend more energy in Mantis than we should
> > because we don’t build on top of any frameworks that can increase our
> > productivity and have us follow some technology that others in the industry
> > leverage every day.
> >
> > I can keep going, but I think you get where I’m heading.  My understand is
> > the following:
> >
> > - Damien, Robert, Roland and I are all in favor of the change.
> >
> > - We got several good praises from others on the DL.
> >
> > - Rafik has applied all feedback we gave him earlier on the UI, and has
> > published the pull request to get code feedback.  Let’s be pragmatic and go
> > through this process to deliver this to our users.
> >
> > - Once pull request is ready it will be committed to master after 1.3
> > branch is created.
> >
> > On Aug 25, 2014, at 2:17 PM, Rolf Kleef <rolf@drostan.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On 25/08/14 17:56, Robert Munteanu wrote:
> > >
> > >> I for one think that it's one of the best things happening to MantisBT
> > >> in the last years from user's point of view.
> > >
> > > As a lurker who uses and occasionally scratches his own itch adapting
> > > Mantis: +1
> > >
> > > I see people try basically ANY bug tracker other than Mantis, to just
> > > not have to show Mantis, despite running into un-satisfied requirements
> > > that Mantis can do out of the box or could do with a little tailoring
> > > (n=3, it's a small sample)
> > >
> > >> I'm sure Rafik can say is not a trivial matter.
> > >
> > > As someone who burnt his fingers on trying to work towards a more
> > > MVC-based version of Mantis (years ago by now) for a more generic "issue
> > > workflow/case management engine", I can only say that Rafik's proposal
> > > will help take away a first layer of scaring off new users: it will look
> > > like something they'd expect to see, whether the mental model is clear
> > > or not.
> > >
> > > So: I'll happily flip through a few more cat videos on a
> > > (Bootstrap-based?) social platform while you figure out how to shave off
> > > a few KBs from Mantis and fix some tabs/spaces?
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > My 2 cents and 0 bits: release 1.3, then merge Rafik's stuff and/or
> > > Paul's Db stuff, and release as 1.4, 2.0, 3.x, I don't care, but get
> > > agile: release early, release often. Test things, break things, fix it.
> > >
> > > The process is stuck in the 20th century. The visual interface is just
> > > an expression of that.
> > >
> > > ~~Rolf.
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
> --
>
> AlainD.
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AlainD.