linuxsampler-devel — This list is for discussing LinuxSampler development issues and ideas

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

Good start José.  ;o)

Remember though, actions you take in connection with your project, are
not relevant here on this list, which is reserved for linux sampler
discussion only.  In other words you have gone off topic!

Maybe a few more off-lists are required, before coming back here?  ;o)

Regards,


Chris.


On 28 June 2016 at 17:36, José Fernando Moyano <fer...@zy...> wrote:
> Thanks!
>
> Yes, i have to create the Wikipedia entry. I will try to do it today ...
> yep! ;-)
>
> Best Regards!
>
>
> El 28/06/16 a las 17:51, RDP escribió:
>> On 28 June 2016 at 16:31, José Fernando Moyano <fer...@zy...> wrote:
>>> Zynthian is not a product. It's an open specification for building a
>>> small-sound-computer with a UI well suited for live performing and sound
>>> operation. Everybody can download ALL the schemes and specifications. We
>>> don't hide nothing.
>>>
>>> It's an open platform. Hardware and software is Open. We sell the kits
>>> to promote the project, and of course, to cover the costs. The profit is
>>> negligible.
>> Then I humbly suggest, you  go get yourself listed..
>>
>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_projects
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Attend Shape: An AT&T Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT&T Park in San
>> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
>> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
>> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
>> http://sdm.link/attshape
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linuxsampler-devel mailing list
>> Lin...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linuxsampler-devel
> --
> José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
>  + Email: fer...@zy...
>  + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
>  + Web: http://zynthian.org
>  + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Attend Shape: An AT&T Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT&T Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
> http://sdm.link/attshape
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxsampler-devel mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linuxsampler-devel
>

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

On 29 June 2016 at 20:09, Robin Gareus <ro...@ga...> wrote:
>> Might it not be a good idea for this discussion to be taken here,
>>
>>    http://bb.linuxsampler.org/
>>
>> .. with some drafts published  ( wiki style ), so that such a beast
>> can be formalised?
>>
>
> wiki-style sounds good to me. As to where I don't care. Does
> http://bb.linuxsampler.org/ facilitate editing a shared topic?
> or a google-doc or page on wiki.linuxaudio.org - Can you set this up?

I don't know ( yet ).  Seems a tad dead there at the moment, with no
'current' topics.  Maybe it's time liven it up and start one?!.;o)    If the
resources are there to be used, then let's use them.  If'n they ain't,
then they can always be found somewhere else.

> As for discussion while editing #lad IRC on freenode.net
>    http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=lad
> would be a good idea.

Possibly.  Remember, there may well be those who, for various
reasons,  are not inclined not to chat

> ..to roll the ball a bit further, the goal is a proper valid license
> which directly answers the following questions without doubt:

Some of your questions could already be answered, here,

http://www.linuxsampler.org/faq.html#commercial_products

As I understand it, the current licensing is already GPL, but with that
little additional commercial exception. ;o)   IMHO, that commercial
exception is relatively clearly stated.   While I can appreciate the reasoning
behind it, there may well be some grey areas open to interpretation.

Regards,



Chris. .

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Robin G. <ro...@ga...>]

On 06/29/2016 08:17 PM, RDP wrote:
> On 28 June 2016 at 23:12, Robin Gareus <ro...@ga...> wrote:
>> On 06/28/2016 11:39 PM, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> 
>>> .. if you really want license issues to be addressed, sit down, elaborate and suggest
>>> clear license terms by yourself which could become a candidate to resolve those overall
>>> issues.
> 
>> Ok here it goes: I suggest to take the GPLv2. amend Section 1 with the
>> non commercial exception and change the name to LinuxSampler License.
> 
> Might it not be a good idea for this discussion to be taken here,
> 
>    http://bb.linuxsampler.org/
> 
> .. with some drafts published  ( wiki style ), so that such a beast
> can be formalised?
> 

wiki-style sounds good to me. As to where I don't care. Does
http://bb.linuxsampler.org/ facilitate editing a shared topic?
or a google-doc or page on wiki.linuxaudio.org - Can you set this up?

As for discussion while editing #lad IRC on freenode.net
   http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=lad
would be a good idea.


..to roll the ball a bit further, the goal is a proper valid license
which directly answers the following questions without doubt:


  * Under what conditions can I use Linuxsamler ?
use: GPL

  * Can I change linuxsampler and redistribute the sources?

yes, that's how you send patches & contribute

  * Can I build and distribute binaries not for profit? Even if the
target host is a commercial system?

probably :)  --- needs clarification

 * Can automate compilation and binary distribution not for profit
...and accept donations for it? --  Even if the target host is a
commercial system?

probably not. --- needs clarification

  * Who needs to accept the license?

both: distributor and user.

  * Can I include binaries pre-installed on commercial hardware?

No.

  * Can I use GPLed parts of the source in a GPLv2 application?

I suppose so. --- needs clarification

  * What commercial licensing options are available?

-> send email to ...


ciao,
robin

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

On 28 June 2016 at 17:29, Christian Schoenebeck <sch...@li...> >

> They just keep going why they think they should not be obliged to ask for any
> commercial permission at all. Even if that commercial agreement would just be
> a matter of couple cents or even some kind of non-monetary one.

Such as showcasing a running LinuxSampler at that Sonar+D in
Barcelona, maybe?  ;o)
,
> You might hate it or not, but the fact is, if you sell a hardware product with
> or for LinuxSampler, then you have to ask for our prior permission. If you
> don't even want to bother to ask for our permission, then OK, use it
> privately, modify it, put it on websites, use it in any way you want,
> *but* please : don't sell any commercial software and/or hardware product in
> combination with LinuxSampler without asking us first.
>
> It is a simple rule and IMHO just fair.

For what it is worth, I'm in full agreement with you.  Perhaps on thsi
occasion, José Fernando's enthusiasm for his project slightly got the
better of him?

> And José: we actually granted commercial permissions for free to numerous
> people and companies in the past. So sometimes it is really just about common
> politeness instead of arguing about our license terms.

How abut a profuse and grovelling apology José, for going abiut this
bull before horns? Then you can both start from the top anew!   What
say you?  ;o)

Regards,



Chris.

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

On 28 June 2016 at 23:12, Robin Gareus <ro...@ga...> wrote:
> On 06/28/2016 11:39 PM, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:

>> .. if you really want license issues to be addressed, sit down, elaborate and suggest
>> clear license terms by yourself which could become a candidate to resolve those overall
>> issues.

> Ok here it goes: I suggest to take the GPLv2. amend Section 1 with the
> non commercial exception and change the name to LinuxSampler License.

Might it not be a good idea for this discussion to be taken here,

   http://bb.linuxsampler.org/

.. with some drafts published  ( wiki style ), so that such a beast
can be formalised?

Chris.

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Robin G. <ro...@ga...>]

On 06/28/2016 11:39 PM, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:

> However writing such a long new license text takes a load of free time (which 
> is already quite limited on my side), energy, research and finally a clear 
> consent by the developers. 

I understand. I am however of the strong opinion that one should have a
full understanding of how ones work is to be treated before publishing
it and not gray areas with possible backdoors or loopholes (think Disney
not LS).


If LS licensing was clear, how do you explain those tiring discussion
that you mention:

> And to be honest, if you look at the discussions 
> here, do you really think that motivates i.e. me to do that? I mean there are 
> people coming to this list or contacting me directly, whom I never heard of 
> before in my entire life, not participated to this project in any way before, 
> and dozens of them are telling me in all kinds of harsh ways over and over 
> again what I "must" do with our software. 

I'm sorry I came across harshly. I didn't mean to offend nor push anyone
into doing anything.

I hoped to paint a clear picture based on facts about the current
licensing situation.


> There were even people before who 
> claimed that we would break laws by releasing the sampler under those terms 
> and other ridiculous things.
> 
> So once and for all guys; if you want to discuss license issues: do your home 
> work (i.e. especially check the FAQs and the list archive by yourself), be 
> polite, don't be offensive (we are all doing this in our spare time, you 
> cannot force us to do anything), and be constructive: if you really want 
> license issues to be addressed, sit down, elaborate and suggest clear license 
> terms by yourself which could become a candidate to resolve those overall 
> issues.

Ok here it goes: I suggest to take the GPLv2. amend Section 1 with the
non commercial exception and change the name to LinuxSampler License.



* "You may not use the source code, libraries and derived applications
in any commercial hardware or software products."

after the "You may charge a fee for the physical..." sentence in section 1.

* Delete section 9. and the part referring to the FSF in section 10.

* s/GNU/LinuxSampler/

* save the file as COPYING.LS

* rename the currently COPYING to COPYING.GPLv2

* Add a new file: COPYING

------8<------
   All source files that include a GPL boilerplate are subject to terms
of the GNU General Public License which can be found in  COPYING.GPLv2.

   The complete project and all other files are subject to the
LinuxSampler License as found in COPYING.LS

   Linuxsampler is available for commercial licensing, a written
permission by the authors is required for this. Please inquire with the
authors. see http://linuxsampler.org/developers.html
------8<------


I think that would make things clear and may not even require agreement
of all developers since it just a proper form of what you have currently
and intend and should take less than 1h.

ciao,
robin

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Christian S. <sch...@li...>]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 23:32:34 Robin Gareus wrote:
> On 06/28/2016 10:20 PM, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> > You know the terms under which LinuxSampler is released, its
> > clearly and prominently written on the website
> 
> Sadly no, those terms as self contradictory and hence invalid.
> One can only assume or guess your intentions.
> 
> You're on the safe side: Any just court would uphold your (C) claim and
> clearly stated intention for no commercial use, but it leaves users out.
> 
> One can assume that you won't be suing users for non-commercial use but
> there's no guarantee. It's a status-quo.
> 
> >> So if one were to take the individual source files and re-roll them
> >> into a new archive... ?!
> > 
> > Wrong. Neither are all files of LinuxSampler's sources pre-headed
> > with a GPL intro text, nor would this action be legitimate.
> 
> Where does this leave files that do have a GPL header?
> 
> say for example
> http://svn.linuxsampler.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/linuxsampler/trunk/src/common
> /Thread.cpp
> 
> Can I use that in an independent project with vanilla GPLv2?
> 
> COPYING in the source-dir is GPLv2, the README contradicts that.
> 
> I would like to encourage you to properly license LinuxSampler if only
> to prevent future threads like this.

You don't need to encourage me. If you are really interested in resolving 
users' drawbacks of the current license situation, then let me invite *you* to 
resolve them!

CU
Christian

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Christian S. <sch...@li...>]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 22:24:08 you wrote:
> On 06/28/2016 10:20 PM, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> > Robin, please understand that this issue had been discussed over and over
> > again on this list. So please refer to the list archive on this one. You
> > are really not adding anything new on this topic and this has also been
> > discussed with several people of the FSF before.
> 
> Hi Christian,
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply.
> 
> When searching the archive I only found issues due to linking.
> "Linuxsampler is NOT gpl" in 2005.
> 
> Would you mind pointing me to a reference in the list-archive that
> points out how GPL section 6 can be combined with a commercial exception?

Robin, there were more license discussions on this list than I could even 
count. Searching all of them just to find this particular issue would also 
take a load search time for me. I am sure you will find it if you invest a 
certain required amount of time.

You might also check the respective other license discussions on other lists 
like LAD and LAU.

> Is that discussion with the FSF public?

No it was not.

CU
Christian

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Christian S. <sch...@li...>]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 22:16:41 Robin Gareus wrote:
> I'd like users to respect the intention of the authors of this IMHO
> great software. But I very much wish for these intentions to be clearly
> solidified by a proper license (until a time comes where software
> licensing becomes irrelevant).
[snip]
> 
> One practical example: forking linuxsampler: A lot of users are/were not
> happy with 32 channels LV2 output by default in Ardour (though this has
> meanwhile been solved in in Ardour with plugin pin connections).
> 
> How could a user modify the source and redistribute the changes and make
> sure they're likewise not used in a commercial product?

Correct, the current license definition creates drawbacks for the user in 
certain scenarios which could be addressed by writing one precise, long, new 
license text as replacement for the current short "GPL + commercial exception" 
definition. This has also been argued by people i.e. from Debian before and is 
the main reason why LinuxSampler is currently not even in the so called "non-
free section" of Debian (which is BTW not an official part of Debian).

However writing such a long new license text takes a load of free time (which 
is already quite limited on my side), energy, research and finally a clear 
consent by the developers. And to be honest, if you look at the discussions 
here, do you really think that motivates i.e. me to do that? I mean there are 
people coming to this list or contacting me directly, whom I never heard of 
before in my entire life, not participated to this project in any way before, 
and dozens of them are telling me in all kinds of harsh ways over and over 
again what I "must" do with our software. There were even people before who 
claimed that we would break laws by releasing the sampler under those terms 
and other ridiculous things.

So once and for all guys; if you want to discuss license issues: do your home 
work (i.e. especially check the FAQs and the list archive by yourself), be 
polite, don't be offensive (we are all doing this in our spare time, you 
cannot force us to do anything), and be constructive: if you really want 
license issues to be addressed, sit down, elaborate and suggest clear license 
terms by yourself which could become a candidate to resolve those overall 
issues.

> Would you oppose a non-free debian package alike the
> adobe-flash-installer?  Basically a script that automatically get the
> source and compiles a local version or grabs a binary from some place?

I never was, nor was anybody from this project. I think we have Debian 
packaging scripts almost since day one. And like I stated above, it was 
Debian's side who told us that they would like to, but currently cannot add it 
to non-free due to i.e. some reasons you mentioned as well.

And obviously, there is a difference between just rolling a package and the 
actual use case. Putting the package on a public web server is one thing, 
linking or even incorporating the package with a hardware product is a 
completely different thing.

CU
Christian

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Robin G. <ro...@ga...>]

On 06/28/2016 10:20 PM, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> You know the terms under which LinuxSampler is released, its 
> clearly and prominently written on the website

Sadly no, those terms as self contradictory and hence invalid.
One can only assume or guess your intentions.

You're on the safe side: Any just court would uphold your (C) claim and
clearly stated intention for no commercial use, but it leaves users out.

One can assume that you won't be suing users for non-commercial use but
there's no guarantee. It's a status-quo.

>> So if one were to take the individual source files and re-roll them
>> into a new archive... ?!
> 
> Wrong. Neither are all files of LinuxSampler's sources pre-headed 
> with a GPL intro text, nor would this action be legitimate.

Where does this leave files that do have a GPL header?

say for example
http://svn.linuxsampler.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/linuxsampler/trunk/src/common/Thread.cpp

Can I use that in an independent project with vanilla GPLv2?

COPYING in the source-dir is GPLv2, the README contradicts that.

I would like to encourage you to properly license LinuxSampler if only
to prevent future threads like this.

Cheers!
robin

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Robin G. <ro...@ga...>]

On 06/28/2016 10:20 PM, Christian Schoenebeck wrote:
> Robin, please understand that this issue had been discussed over and over 
> again on this list. So please refer to the list archive on this one. You are 
> really not adding anything new on this topic and this has also been discussed 
> with several people of the FSF before.

Hi Christian,

Thanks for the quick reply.

When searching the archive I only found issues due to linking.
"Linuxsampler is NOT gpl" in 2005.

Would you mind pointing me to a reference in the list-archive that
points out how GPL section 6 can be combined with a commercial exception?

Is that discussion with the FSF public?

Cheers!
robin

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Robin G. <ro...@ga...>]

Sorry for this self-reply follow up post, I forgot to include a
pertinent reference.

On 06/28/2016 09:41 PM, Robin Gareus wrote:
>> That commercial exception, being ( snipped and quoted for the sake of
>> pedantism ),
>>
>> '..under the GNU GPL with the exception that USAGE of the source code,
>> libraries and applications *FOR*  COMMERCIAL HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE
>> PRODUCTS IS NOT ALLOWED without prior written permission..'
> 
> 
> GPL section 6 says
> 
> "You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise
> of the rights granted herein."
> 
> So how does that work out?
> 
> That additional commercial exception contradicts the GPL on which it is
> based on and as result LS does not have a license. It is fully copyrighted.
> 
> It could become an new license: GPL without section 6 but with that
> exception added instead. Then again this is at odds since one is not
> allowed to modify the GPL itself.

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ModifyGPL

> You can get around that by calling it
> the LinuxSampler-License and not mention the GPL at all.
>
> 
> As side-note, generally source-code header license for individual files
> trumps the license file from the collection. A quick grep shows that the
> source itself has a GPLv2 boilerplate with no commercial exception
> (unless I've missed some).
> 
> So if one were to take the individual source files and re-roll them into
> a new archive... ?!
> 

Also let me add that I by no mean want to encourage that.

I'd like users to respect the intention of the authors of this IMHO
great software. But I very much wish for these intentions to be clearly
solidified by a proper license (until a time comes where software
licensing becomes irrelevant).


One practical example: forking linuxsampler: A lot of users are/were not
happy with 32 channels LV2 output by default in Ardour (though this has
meanwhile been solved in in Ardour with plugin pin connections).

How could a user modify the source and redistribute the changes and make
sure they're likewise not used in a commercial product?

Would you oppose a non-free debian package alike the
adobe-flash-installer?  Basically a script that automatically get the
source and compiles a local version or grabs a binary from some place?


ciao,
robin

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Christian S. <sch...@li...>]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 21:41:20 Robin Gareus wrote:
> > That commercial exception, being ( snipped and quoted for the sake of
> > pedantism ),
> > 
> > '..under the GNU GPL with the exception that USAGE of the source code,
> > libraries and applications *FOR*  COMMERCIAL HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE
> > PRODUCTS IS NOT ALLOWED without prior written permission..'
> 
> GPL section 6 says
> 
> "You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise
> of the rights granted herein."
> 
> So how does that work out?
> 
> That additional commercial exception contradicts the GPL on which it is
> based on and as result LS does not have a license. It is fully copyrighted.
> 
> It could become an new license: GPL without section 6 but with that
> exception added instead. Then again this is at odds since one is not
> allowed to modify the GPL itself. You can get around that by calling it
> the LinuxSampler-License and not mention the GPL at all.

Robin, please understand that this issue had been discussed over and over 
again on this list. So please refer to the list archive on this one. You are 
really not adding anything new on this topic and this has also been discussed 
with several people of the FSF before.

> As side-note, generally source-code header license for individual files
> trumps the license file from the collection. A quick grep shows that the
> source itself has a GPLv2 boilerplate with no commercial exception
> (unless I've missed some).
> 
> So if one were to take the individual source files and re-roll them into
> a new archive... ?!

Wrong. Neither are all files of LinuxSampler's sources pre-headed with a GPL 
intro text, nor would this action be legitimate. If you missed it, have a 
closer look at the source files.

And in the end: You know the terms under which LinuxSampler is released, its 
clearly and prominently written on the website, on binary installers, in the 
README file of LinuxSampler's sources and even on Wikipedia. So even if all 
source files were GPL pre-headed (which is not the case), then your suggestion 
would be a conscious disregard of our release terms.

CU
Christian

[Linuxsampler-devel] LS licensing -- was Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Robin G. <ro...@ga...>]

> That commercial exception, being ( snipped and quoted for the sake of
> pedantism ),
>
> '..under the GNU GPL with the exception that USAGE of the source code,
> libraries and applications *FOR*  COMMERCIAL HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE
> PRODUCTS IS NOT ALLOWED without prior written permission..'


GPL section 6 says

"You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise
of the rights granted herein."

So how does that work out?

That additional commercial exception contradicts the GPL on which it is
based on and as result LS does not have a license. It is fully copyrighted.

It could become an new license: GPL without section 6 but with that
exception added instead. Then again this is at odds since one is not
allowed to modify the GPL itself. You can get around that by calling it
the LinuxSampler-License and not mention the GPL at all.


As side-note, generally source-code header license for individual files
trumps the license file from the collection. A quick grep shows that the
source itself has a GPLv2 boilerplate with no commercial exception
(unless I've missed some).

So if one were to take the individual source files and re-roll them into
a new archive... ?!

2c,
robin

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[José F. M. <fer...@zy...>]

Thanks!

Yes, i have to create the Wikipedia entry. I will try to do it today ...
yep! ;-)

Best Regards!


El 28/06/16 a las 17:51, RDP escribió:
> On 28 June 2016 at 16:31, José Fernando Moyano <fer...@zy...> wrote:
>> Zynthian is not a product. It's an open specification for building a
>> small-sound-computer with a UI well suited for live performing and sound
>> operation. Everybody can download ALL the schemes and specifications. We
>> don't hide nothing.
>>
>> It's an open platform. Hardware and software is Open. We sell the kits
>> to promote the project, and of course, to cover the costs. The profit is
>> negligible.
> Then I humbly suggest, you  go get yourself listed..
>
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_projects
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Chris.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Attend Shape: An AT&T Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT&T Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
> http://sdm.link/attshape
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxsampler-devel mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linuxsampler-devel
-- 
José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
 + Email: fer...@zy...
 + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
 + Web: http://zynthian.org
 + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[José F. M. <fer...@zy...>]

El 28/06/16 a las 17:38, RDP escribió:
> On 28 June 2016 at 15:38, Christian Schoenebeck
> <sch...@li...> wrote:
>
> Incidentally...
>
>     http://blog.zynthian.org/
>
> Unless there is a secret ( commercial ) benfactor/sponsor or two
> lurking in the jolly old background,, and even if there is, may one
> ask roughly -  give us a ball ball park figure do  - how much one of
> these stands costs, .exactly?  Would linuxsampler be showcased? ;o)
Of course, i have no secrets:

+ IMPERDIBLE stand => completely free. COTEC foundation payed the party
for everybody ;-)
+ SONAR stand => 844 euros (payed from my own bucket)

And yes, LinuxSampler was installed and used in the showcased zynthian
boxes. Also many others as:

+ ZynAddSubFX
+ setBfree
+ Dexed
+ FluidSynth
+ MDA plugins
+ TAL plugins
+ and many many more free software sound plugins

We sold exactly 0 devices and won exactly 0 euros. Well, i payed 844
euros to be there, only because i love SONAR festival and wanted to feel
the waves, and spread the project into the music world, sharing space
with the most commercial products side by side. You can see that as a
kind of personal whim ;-)

Do you want numbers? Not a problem for me ...

Until now, we have sold exactly 6 kits in 6 months, with an average
price of 80 euros. The cost of materials is about 50, so we have a huge
profit of 180 euros in 6 months. I've started thinking about buying my
first Ferrary ;-D

The question here is that everybody can use the specification to print
PCBs and sell kits. I hope that many people do that, earn some money and
spread Zynthian Project along the world, spreading Free Software too,
and competing with closed products. That is what we all want? Or what?

Best Regards!
-- 
José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
 + Email: fer...@za...
 + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ZauBeR: Soluciones de Software a medida
 + Web: http://www.zauber.es
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ǝsʇ oɐ| ˙o|ǝıɔ |ǝp ouıɯɐɔ |ǝ sǝ ǝsǝ ˙ǝʇɐɹıʇǝɹ 'opɐqɐɔɐ ǝʇsǝ oɾɐqɐɹʇ nʇ
opuɐnɔ




-- 
José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
 + Email: fer...@zy...
 + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
 + Web: http://zynthian.org
 + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Christian S. <sch...@li...>]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 16:38:48 RDP wrote:
> On 28 June 2016 at 15:38, Christian Schoenebeck
> <sch...@li...> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> If "you" gain money by selling commercial products based on open source
> components, would it be *THAT* problematic to only forward a small subset of
> the profit you made to the people who created those open source components,
> <snip>
> 
> Good point.  If it is a (semi-)commercial product, then why don't you
> all come to some form of mutual and amicable cooperative agreement
> rather than bickering?  Sense of proprotion people, sense of
> proportion! ;o)

Exactly!

But as you might see, like in many other commercial inquiries we had in the 
past, they are not even interested in discussing any kind of agreement at all. 
They just keep going why they think they should not be obliged to ask for any 
commercial permission at all. Even if that commercial agreement would just be 
a matter of couple cents or even some kind of non-monetary one.

You might hate it or not, but the fact is, if you sell a hardware product with 
or for LinuxSampler, then you have to ask for our prior permission. If you 
don't even want to bother to ask for our permission, then OK, use it 
privately, modify it, put it on websites, use it in any way you want,
*but* please : don't sell any commercial software and/or hardware product in 
combination with LinuxSampler without asking us first.

It is a simple rule and IMHO just fair.

And José: we actually granted commercial permissions for free to numerous 
people and companies in the past. So sometimes it is really just about common 
politeness instead of arguing about our license terms.

CU
Christian

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

On 28 June 2016 at 16:31, José Fernando Moyano <fer...@zy...> wrote:
> Zynthian is not a product. It's an open specification for building a
> small-sound-computer with a UI well suited for live performing and sound
> operation. Everybody can download ALL the schemes and specifications. We
> don't hide nothing.
>
> It's an open platform. Hardware and software is Open. We sell the kits
> to promote the project, and of course, to cover the costs. The profit is
> negligible.

Then I humbly suggest, you  go get yourself listed..

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_hardware_projects

Regards,


Chris.

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

On 28 June 2016 at 15:38, Christian Schoenebeck
<sch...@li...> wrote:

<snip>
If "you" gain money by selling commercial products based on open source
components, would it be *THAT* problematic to only forward a small subset of
the profit you made to the people who created those open source components,
<snip>

Good point.  If it is a (semi-)commercial product, then why don't you
all come to some form of mutual and amicable cooperative agreement
rather than bickering?  Sense of proprotion people, sense of
proportion! ;o)

Incidentally...

    http://blog.zynthian.org/

Unless there is a secret ( commercial ) benfactor/sponsor or two
lurking in the jolly old background,, and even if there is, may one
ask roughly -  give us a ball ball park figure do  - how much one of
these stands costs, .exactly?  Would linuxsampler be showcased? ;o)

My penny/(euro)cents worth..

Cheers!


Chris.

 ;o)

> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 13:12:14 José Fernando Moyano wrote:
>> Hi Christian!
>>
>> El 23/06/16 a las 14:20, Christian Schoenebeck escribió:
>> > And that's the point where the game changes. As soon as you sell either a
>> > software or hardware in conjunction with LinuxSampler, it becomes a
>> > commercial product using LinuxSampler. And to be clear on that: at this
>> > point "somebody"
>> 1.) We don't sell any software. Never. All the software we create is GPLed.
>
> Got that.
>
>> 2.) The hardware we sell as DIY kits is very generic. It's not designed
>> to work with LinuxSampler in anyway. It can run Linuxsampler in the same
>> way a Laptop or a Desktop computer can run LinuxSampler. It's a generic
>> sound-dedicated small-computer.
>
> If the hardware is not designed, nor intended to be used with LinuxSampler,
> then there is nothing your should be worried about. But I guess there is some
> reason why you came over here and asked. So there is probably some kind of
> intention for it to be used with LinuxSampler, isn't it?
>
>> I suposse that Dell, Compaq or any Clonic Builder/Reseller don't violate
>> the LinuxSampler license, althought they can claim that their "devices"
>> can run LinuxSampler. Zynthian case is the same, with a different User
>> Interface, based in RotaryEncoders+Switches instead of Mouse+Keyboard.
>
> Well, obviously Dell computers etc. are sold as general purpose computers. So
> the difference between those hardware products and probably "yours" (whoever
> actually sells the hardware in the end) is that "you" probably create a
> connection between "your" hardware product and LinuxSampler. Now the question
> is what kind of connection is that? Do you ship the hardware with LinuxSampler
> already installed? Do you ship the hardware with an installer which is going
> to automatically install LinuxSampler for the customer? Do you promote your
> hardware product to provide a sampler and that sampler is LinuxSampler? Do you
> conduct workshops where you promote and/or sell your hardware products in
> connection with LinuxSampler? Anything else I probably did not mention?
>
> You know there are a load of people who contact us who want to sell hardware
> products with LinuxSampler, and most of them do not want to acquire a
> commercial license for it, so they always try to argue why they think they
> don't need to ask us for permission to use the sampler with a commercial
> product. But in the end in 99% of the cases they are just trying to find a way
> to circumvent our commercial restriction. And that is the primary reason why
> this sampler is not distributed under a pure FOSS standard license, because
> most commercial actors are just exploiting open source components to sell
> products without any intention to give back *anything* to the people who
> created those open source components.
>
> I mean you came over here, and instead of first asking like "Hey, we probably
> might want to use the sampler with a commercial hardware product, could we get
> the permission to do so?", instead you immediately start a discussion why,
> from your point of view, you don't have to ask us for any permission at all.
> But the fact that you came over here and started a discussions about it shows
> that you are not convinced about your own claims by yourself. For good
> reasons.
>
> If "you" gain money by selling commercial products based on open source
> components, would it be *THAT* problematic to only forward a small subset of
> the profit you made to the people who created those open source components,
> components which actually added real value to your product(s)? If you had
> asked me that polite question mentioned by me above and I had answered: "You
> know what, forward us couple cents of each device you sell and you can do
> that", would you still invest energy and time to discuss license details over
> here? Would it hurt you? Would you sell less devices? But the sad fact is that
> you, like most other ones, cannot even consider that.
>
>> > asks for money, so that specific person (and accordingly the company or
>> > organization (s)he legally acts on behalf) would violate the license.
>> >
>> > There is nothing wrong to offer free open source software in conjunction
>> > with LinuxSampler on websites to the public, free of charge for
>> > everybody. Nor is it wrong to conduct work shops for money. This was
>> > never our objection. But selling a hardware kit with or for LinuxSampler
>> > without our prior permission is clearly violating the license.
>> >
>> > Does this make it more clear?
>>
>> I hope yes. We want to be friends, please ;-)
>
> Well, so far I rather get the impression that your only intention is to use
> the sampler with products for free, without any obligations. Not to make any
> friendship over here. I mean have you ever been active in some way over here?
> Have you ever sent any patch or discussed technical issues here, asked how you
> could help this project, answered questions of users on this list or on the
> forum or whatever?
>
> CU
> Christian
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Attend Shape: An AT&T Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT&T Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
> http://sdm.link/attshape
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxsampler-devel mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linuxsampler-devel

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[José F. M. <fer...@zy...>]

Hi Christian!

El 28/06/16 a las 16:38, Christian Schoenebeck escribió:
> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 13:12:14 José Fernando Moyano wrote:
>> 2.) The hardware we sell as DIY kits is very generic. It's not designed
>> to work with LinuxSampler in anyway. It can run Linuxsampler in the same
>> way a Laptop or a Desktop computer can run LinuxSampler. It's a generic
>> sound-dedicated small-computer.
> 
> If the hardware is not designed, nor intended to be used with LinuxSampler, 
> then there is nothing your should be worried about. But I guess there is some 
> reason why you came over here and asked. So there is probably some kind of 
> intention for it to be used with LinuxSampler, isn't it?

There is intention to being used with ANY free software synthesizer that
can be run on it. Linuxsampler is only on more in the list.

>> I suposse that Dell, Compaq or any Clonic Builder/Reseller don't violate
>> the LinuxSampler license, althought they can claim that their "devices"
>> can run LinuxSampler. Zynthian case is the same, with a different User
>> Interface, based in RotaryEncoders+Switches instead of Mouse+Keyboard.
> 
> Well, obviously Dell computers etc. are sold as general purpose computers. So 
> the difference between those hardware products and probably "yours" (whoever 
> actually sells the hardware in the end) is that "you" probably create a 
> connection between "your" hardware product and LinuxSampler. Now the question 

Zynthian is not a product. It's an open specification for building a
small-sound-computer with a UI well suited for live performing and sound
operation. Everybody can download ALL the schemes and specifications. We
don't hide nothing.

It's an open platform. Hardware and software is Open. We sell the kits
to promote the project, and of course, to cover the costs. The profit is
negligible.

> is what kind of connection is that? Do you ship the hardware with LinuxSampler 
> already installed? Do you ship the hardware with an installer which is going 

We don't include/ship ANY kind of software with the kits. Never. The
software can be downloaded by everybody from Internet, as everything is
free / open source software.

> to automatically install LinuxSampler for the customer? Do you promote your 
> hardware product to provide a sampler and that sampler is LinuxSampler? Do you 

It's an open specification for building a small-sound-computer with a UI
well suited for live performing and sound operation. Everybody can
download ALL the schemes and specifications. We don't hide nothing.

It's an open platform. Hardware and software is Open. We sell the kits
to promote the project, and of course, to cover the costs. The profit is
negligible.

> conduct workshops where you promote and/or sell your hardware products in 
> connection with LinuxSampler? Anything else I probably did not mention?

If you prefer, we can avoid to mention LinuxSampler in our WorkShops,
web, blogs. Bad for you, bad for us. Completely not sense IMHO ;-(

> You know there are a load of people who contact us who want to sell hardware 
> products with LinuxSampler, and most of them do not want to acquire a 
> commercial license for it, so they always try to argue why they think they 
> don't need to ask us for permission to use the sampler with a commercial 

I think you are wrong with Zynthian ;-)

> product. But in the end in 99% of the cases they are just trying to find a way 
> to circumvent our commercial restriction. And that is the primary reason why 
> this sampler is not distributed under a pure FOSS standard license, because 
> most commercial actors are just exploiting open source components to sell 
> products without any intention to give back *anything* to the people who 
> created those open source components.

Zynthian is, and always will be, an Open Platform, so we are giving back
to the community from the beginning.

All the software we develop is GPL. All the hardware we develop has a
public specification. We have publicated the schemes and gerber files
for every specific PCB and part, the Bill Of Materials, STLs for 3D
printing of enclosures, DWGs and DXFs with the schemes for building the
steel or aluminium boxes, tutorials, everything.

http://blog.zynthian.org
http://wiki.zynthian.org
https://github.com/zynthian

> I mean you came over here, and instead of first asking like "Hey, we probably 
> might want to use the sampler with a commercial hardware product, could we get 
> the permission to do so?", instead you immediately start a discussion why, 
> from your point of view, you don't have to ask us for any permission at all. 
> But the fact that you came over here and started a discussions about it shows 
> that you are not convinced about your own claims by yourself. For good 
> reasons.

You are completely wrong, Christian, and really, i don't know why we are
discussing. As you tell me, perhaps the error was contacting you.

I've contacted you as a kind of "courtesy" and to avoid
missunderstandings, not because i had any doubt about this.

Really, i'm very very surprised by your attitude. I never waited this
kind of treatment by your part.

> If "you" gain money by selling commercial products based on open source 
> components, would it be *THAT* problematic to only forward a small subset of 
> the profit you made to the people who created those open source components, 
> components which actually added real value to your product(s)? If you had 
> asked me that polite question mentioned by me above and I had answered: "You 
> know what, forward us couple cents of each device you sell and you can do 
> that", would you still invest energy and time to discuss license details over 
> here? Would it hurt you? Would you sell less devices? But the sad fact is that 
> you, like most other ones, cannot even consider that.

We don't sell ANY kind of device. We only sell kits that help,
partially, to build a ZynthianBox. And i say "partially" because you
need to buy a RaspberryPi, a soundcard, a touchsscreen and other
components by yourself. Our kits only include some specific PCBs for the
controller parts.

Zynthian is an open specification for building a small-sound-computer
with a UI well suited for live performing and sound operation. Everybody
can download ALL the schemes and specifications. We don't hide nothing.

Zynthian is, and always will be, an Open Platform, so we are giving back
to the community from the beginning.

All the software we develop is GPL. All the hardware we develop has a
public specification. We have published the schemes and gerber files for
every specific PCB and part, the Bill Of Materials, STLs for 3D printing
of enclosures, DWGs and DXFs with the schemes for building the steel or
aluminium boxes, tutorials, everything:

http://blog.zynthian.org
http://wiki.zynthian.org
https://github.com/zynthian

Really, i'm very sorry to have begun this discussion, as i think it's a
complete non sense, but, as i've started, i would like to make you
understand what Zynthian is and what is not, so we can be "friends" and
collaborate as "Open Source Projects". That's all.

Best Regards!
-- 
José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
 + Email: fer...@zy...
 + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
 + Web: http://zynthian.org
 + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

On 28 June 2016 at 13:02, José Fernando Moyano <fer...@zy...> wrote:
> The discussion is about LinuxSampler License, that is not GPL.

This page..

    http://linuxsampler.org/downloads.html

.. states linuxsampler as being licensed under GPL with 'commercial exception'

That commercial exception, being ( snipped and quoted for the sake of
pedantism ),

'..under the GNU GPL with the exception that USAGE of the source code,
libraries and applications *FOR*  COMMERCIAL HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE
PRODUCTS IS NOT ALLOWED without prior written permission..'

So, I think my query remains a valid one. Exactly how are the terms of
the GPL and in this instance, the tagged on 'commercial exception'
being broken?  I don't see it.  Wires get crossed somewhere, maybe?
;o)

Regards,


Chris.

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[Christian S. <sch...@li...>]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 13:12:14 José Fernando Moyano wrote:
> Hi Christian!
> 
> El 23/06/16 a las 14:20, Christian Schoenebeck escribió:
> > And that's the point where the game changes. As soon as you sell either a
> > software or hardware in conjunction with LinuxSampler, it becomes a
> > commercial product using LinuxSampler. And to be clear on that: at this
> > point "somebody"
> 1.) We don't sell any software. Never. All the software we create is GPLed.

Got that.

> 2.) The hardware we sell as DIY kits is very generic. It's not designed
> to work with LinuxSampler in anyway. It can run Linuxsampler in the same
> way a Laptop or a Desktop computer can run LinuxSampler. It's a generic
> sound-dedicated small-computer.

If the hardware is not designed, nor intended to be used with LinuxSampler, 
then there is nothing your should be worried about. But I guess there is some 
reason why you came over here and asked. So there is probably some kind of 
intention for it to be used with LinuxSampler, isn't it?

> I suposse that Dell, Compaq or any Clonic Builder/Reseller don't violate
> the LinuxSampler license, althought they can claim that their "devices"
> can run LinuxSampler. Zynthian case is the same, with a different User
> Interface, based in RotaryEncoders+Switches instead of Mouse+Keyboard.

Well, obviously Dell computers etc. are sold as general purpose computers. So 
the difference between those hardware products and probably "yours" (whoever 
actually sells the hardware in the end) is that "you" probably create a 
connection between "your" hardware product and LinuxSampler. Now the question 
is what kind of connection is that? Do you ship the hardware with LinuxSampler 
already installed? Do you ship the hardware with an installer which is going 
to automatically install LinuxSampler for the customer? Do you promote your 
hardware product to provide a sampler and that sampler is LinuxSampler? Do you 
conduct workshops where you promote and/or sell your hardware products in 
connection with LinuxSampler? Anything else I probably did not mention?

You know there are a load of people who contact us who want to sell hardware 
products with LinuxSampler, and most of them do not want to acquire a 
commercial license for it, so they always try to argue why they think they 
don't need to ask us for permission to use the sampler with a commercial 
product. But in the end in 99% of the cases they are just trying to find a way 
to circumvent our commercial restriction. And that is the primary reason why 
this sampler is not distributed under a pure FOSS standard license, because 
most commercial actors are just exploiting open source components to sell 
products without any intention to give back *anything* to the people who 
created those open source components.

I mean you came over here, and instead of first asking like "Hey, we probably 
might want to use the sampler with a commercial hardware product, could we get 
the permission to do so?", instead you immediately start a discussion why, 
from your point of view, you don't have to ask us for any permission at all. 
But the fact that you came over here and started a discussions about it shows 
that you are not convinced about your own claims by yourself. For good 
reasons.

If "you" gain money by selling commercial products based on open source 
components, would it be *THAT* problematic to only forward a small subset of 
the profit you made to the people who created those open source components, 
components which actually added real value to your product(s)? If you had 
asked me that polite question mentioned by me above and I had answered: "You 
know what, forward us couple cents of each device you sell and you can do 
that", would you still invest energy and time to discuss license details over 
here? Would it hurt you? Would you sell less devices? But the sad fact is that 
you, like most other ones, cannot even consider that.

> > asks for money, so that specific person (and accordingly the company or
> > organization (s)he legally acts on behalf) would violate the license.
> > 
> > There is nothing wrong to offer free open source software in conjunction
> > with LinuxSampler on websites to the public, free of charge for
> > everybody. Nor is it wrong to conduct work shops for money. This was
> > never our objection. But selling a hardware kit with or for LinuxSampler
> > without our prior permission is clearly violating the license.
> > 
> > Does this make it more clear?
> 
> I hope yes. We want to be friends, please ;-)

Well, so far I rather get the impression that your only intention is to use 
the sampler with products for free, without any obligations. Not to make any 
friendship over here. I mean have you ever been active in some way over here? 
Have you ever sent any patch or discussed technical issues here, asked how you 
could help this project, answered questions of users on this list or on the 
forum or whatever?

CU
Christian

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[José F. M. <fer...@zy...>]

The discussion is about LinuxSampler License, that is not GPL.

Regards!


El 28/06/16 a las 13:29, RDP escribió:
> Hi,
>
> Looks like a very interesting *hardware*  project. ;o)
>
> Instead of all these words, pleas, and apparent implied restrictions..
> would someone kindly care to point out, *EXACT:LY* where the GPL
> is being battered/bent/broken?  ;o)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
>
> Chris.
>
> On 28 June 2016 at 12:12, José Fernando Moyano <fer...@zy...> wrote:
>> Hi Christian!
>>
>> El 23/06/16 a las 14:20, Christian Schoenebeck escribió:
>>> And that's the point where the game changes. As soon as you sell either a
>>> software or hardware in conjunction with LinuxSampler, it becomes a commercial
>>> product using LinuxSampler. And to be clear on that: at this point "somebody"
>> 1.) We don't sell any software. Never. All the software we create is GPLed.
>>
>> 2.) The hardware we sell as DIY kits is very generic. It's not designed
>> to work with LinuxSampler in anyway. It can run Linuxsampler in the same
>> way a Laptop or a Desktop computer can run LinuxSampler. It's a generic
>> sound-dedicated small-computer.
>>
>> I suposse that Dell, Compaq or any Clonic Builder/Reseller don't violate
>> the LinuxSampler license, althought they can claim that their "devices"
>> can run LinuxSampler. Zynthian case is the same, with a different User
>> Interface, based in RotaryEncoders+Switches instead of Mouse+Keyboard.
>>
>>> asks for money, so that specific person (and accordingly the company or
>>> organization (s)he legally acts on behalf) would violate the license.
>>>
>>> There is nothing wrong to offer free open source software in conjunction with
>>> LinuxSampler on websites to the public, free of charge for everybody. Nor is
>>> it wrong to conduct work shops for money. This was never our objection. But
>>> selling a hardware kit with or for LinuxSampler without our prior permission
>>> is clearly violating the license.
>>>
>>> Does this make it more clear?
>> I hope yes. We want to be friends, please ;-)
>>
>> Best Regards!
>>
>> --
>> José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
>>  + Email: fer...@zy...
>>  + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
>>  + Web: http://zynthian.org
>>  + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Attend Shape: An AT&T Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT&T Park in San
>> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
>> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
>> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
>> http://sdm.link/attshape
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linuxsampler-devel mailing list
>> Lin...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linuxsampler-devel
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Attend Shape: An AT&T Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT&T Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
> http://sdm.link/attshape
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxsampler-devel mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linuxsampler-devel

-- 
José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
 + Email: fer...@zy...
 + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
 + Web: http://zynthian.org
 + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[RDP <gli...@gm...>]

Hi,

Looks like a very interesting *hardware*  project. ;o)

Instead of all these words, pleas, and apparent implied restrictions..
would someone kindly care to point out, *EXACT:LY* where the GPL
is being battered/bent/broken?  ;o)

Thanks.

Cheers!




Chris.

On 28 June 2016 at 12:12, José Fernando Moyano <fer...@zy...> wrote:
> Hi Christian!
>
> El 23/06/16 a las 14:20, Christian Schoenebeck escribió:
>> And that's the point where the game changes. As soon as you sell either a
>> software or hardware in conjunction with LinuxSampler, it becomes a commercial
>> product using LinuxSampler. And to be clear on that: at this point "somebody"
>
> 1.) We don't sell any software. Never. All the software we create is GPLed.
>
> 2.) The hardware we sell as DIY kits is very generic. It's not designed
> to work with LinuxSampler in anyway. It can run Linuxsampler in the same
> way a Laptop or a Desktop computer can run LinuxSampler. It's a generic
> sound-dedicated small-computer.
>
> I suposse that Dell, Compaq or any Clonic Builder/Reseller don't violate
> the LinuxSampler license, althought they can claim that their "devices"
> can run LinuxSampler. Zynthian case is the same, with a different User
> Interface, based in RotaryEncoders+Switches instead of Mouse+Keyboard.
>
>> asks for money, so that specific person (and accordingly the company or
>> organization (s)he legally acts on behalf) would violate the license.
>>
>> There is nothing wrong to offer free open source software in conjunction with
>> LinuxSampler on websites to the public, free of charge for everybody. Nor is
>> it wrong to conduct work shops for money. This was never our objection. But
>> selling a hardware kit with or for LinuxSampler without our prior permission
>> is clearly violating the license.
>>
>> Does this make it more clear?
>
> I hope yes. We want to be friends, please ;-)
>
> Best Regards!
>
> --
> José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
>  + Email: fer...@zy...
>  + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
>  + Web: http://zynthian.org
>  + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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Re: [Linuxsampler-devel] Fwd: Re: Linuxsampler and Zynthian Project

[José F. M. <fer...@zy...>]

Hi Christian!

El 23/06/16 a las 14:20, Christian Schoenebeck escribió:
> And that's the point where the game changes. As soon as you sell either a 
> software or hardware in conjunction with LinuxSampler, it becomes a commercial 
> product using LinuxSampler. And to be clear on that: at this point "somebody" 

1.) We don't sell any software. Never. All the software we create is GPLed.

2.) The hardware we sell as DIY kits is very generic. It's not designed
to work with LinuxSampler in anyway. It can run Linuxsampler in the same
way a Laptop or a Desktop computer can run LinuxSampler. It's a generic
sound-dedicated small-computer.

I suposse that Dell, Compaq or any Clonic Builder/Reseller don't violate
the LinuxSampler license, althought they can claim that their "devices"
can run LinuxSampler. Zynthian case is the same, with a different User
Interface, based in RotaryEncoders+Switches instead of Mouse+Keyboard.

> asks for money, so that specific person (and accordingly the company or 
> organization (s)he legally acts on behalf) would violate the license.
>
> There is nothing wrong to offer free open source software in conjunction with 
> LinuxSampler on websites to the public, free of charge for everybody. Nor is 
> it wrong to conduct work shops for money. This was never our objection. But 
> selling a hardware kit with or for LinuxSampler without our prior permission 
> is clearly violating the license.
>
> Does this make it more clear?

I hope yes. We want to be friends, please ;-)

Best Regards!

-- 
José Fernando Moyano Dominguez
 + Email: fer...@zy...
 + Teléfono: +34 625 642 820
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Zynthian: the Open Synth Platform
 + Web: http://zynthian.org
 + Blog: http://blog.zynthian.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------