linuxha-misc — General topics for Linux Home Automation

Re: [LHA-misc] You want opinions? (was: Another article ...)

[Jay H. <Jay...@t-...>]

At 08:21 AM 11/7/00 -0500, Neil Cherry wrote:
[ wack ]

>We look real good right here, our interface is telnet and ASCII. This
>simplifies most of the development and debugging. I am having a tough time
>with what the standard commands should be. I may simply say: If x10 is
>supported on device X then accept on a1, off p16, dim/bright as the basics
>for X10. Then say: xmcd (extended command) ..., and xdata (extended data)
>... .
>
>The standard commands have been a problem, I have devices with digital,
>analog and X10. I want only 1 set of commands for the x10 no matter what
>(same holds true for digital I/O and analog I/O). I prefer to keep the
>database of device names to I/O names out of the device interface. Though
>I'm not sure if that's such a good idea yet.

What I've got running (workable but ain't real pretty yet) is ASCII. A
"command" looks like this:

SET ADDR=<address> VALUE=<value>

Where <address> is:
<interface>.<point>[.<item>]

So for an Ocelot, interfaces are:
0 = Local CPU
1 = X10
2 = IR
3 = ADICON

<point> I've had a tossup between numeric-only and alphanumeric letting
the target agent do the translation. 

<subpoint> comes in when for a finer grain like RCS Thermostats where
<interface> = Main Address (1,2,3), <point> = Zone, <item> = particular
setting for the zone (setpoint, current temp, ...)

To turn on G5 on the Ocelot the command is:
SET ADDR=1.G5 VALUE=100

The scaling/relay vs dimmer/current setting is all handled by the
agent. If it is a leviton then it know what the presets are, for
regular it can generate "approximate" dims.

For incremental you can do:
SET ADDR=1.G5 VALUE=+10

This carries over directly to the RCS stuff, relay cards, CM11A, ...


>The basics for X10 are the sending of on/off dim/bright commands. The next
>level is the receiving of commands (from RF or power line).

For the "receiving" side the agent generates message like this:
9100 ADDR="1.G5" VALUE="100" TS="984567345" TIME="2000/11/07 13:06:00"

9100 = (9=Unsolicited message, 1=Status message, 00=Generic)

On the "server" (2nd phase side) I've defined a "Lamp" with an
address of "OCELOT:1.G5", variable 0..100/on/off.

Just my thoughts and where I've been going...  The move from
here to XML is not much. I've already got a minimal library built
for handling the XML and am using it in configs at the moment.

Jay

> The next level
>is extended commands. Somewhere in there is the Leviton preset stuff and
>similar unusual commands. 
>
>> And to be completely harsh: you want funding?  You need to have a fairly
>> solid 1.0 release firmly under your belt and be well on the way to
>> V2.0.  Gone are the heady days of the Internet Gold Rush of '99.  The new
>> millenium *demands* profitability.  Come, let us build the new Silicon
>> Valley over the abandoned mine...
>
>I don't expect funding anytime soon, it's just a dream right now. But you
>are 110% correct. Unless we have something good to show venders will have
>no interest in the product.
>
>-- 
>Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
>http://members.home.net/ncherry                        (Text only)
>http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52          (Graphics)
>http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/                         (SourceForge)
>_______________________________________________
>http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/linuxha-misc
>To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe Linuxha-misc"
>in the body of a message to  Lin...@li...

Re: [LHA-misc] Help - So many linux HA options

[Lee N. <le...@ba...>]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry scribbled,

> > Ok now what about Karl Denninger's HomeDaemon? It also talks directly to some
> > devices and uses Shared memory (don't care much for shared memory, but guess
> > it works). It needs to be able to know about talk to the other controllers
> > through sockets. As you said, that program need to be changed.
> 
> There are 2 ways to approach this, the first is to build tools around his code.
> The second is to modify his code. I'll eventually do both, first add tools then
> rewrite his code so it will support the other daemons.

I think the only option here is to hack Karl's code.  We should draft a 
syntax for the interface and then write wrapper's or change Karl's code
to match what we need.  Or am I completely fuzzy about the angle of the 
dangle that you are coming from?

> > As far as GUI, I kind of like the idea of doing it in JAVA, but Tk/TCl will
> > work find too. Seems like the GUI needs to talk to the HomeDaemon though
> > because the Homedaemon understands device names (alias's).
> 
> Java is OK, I've found it to kill performance on most of my boxes. But it
> is easier for the end user to use an applet when they hit a page. I think
> you might find that a combo of Java, and PHP can make for some interesting
> pages.

Definitely.....

-lee

.--------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Lee Nash                                    The 3D Computing Solution    |
| Badencorp                                                                |
| 101 Sunnytown Rd, Suite 208                    Fax: (407)260-0584        |
| Casselberry, Fl 32707                          Tel: (407)260-2777        |
| www.badencorp.com                            Email:le...@ba...     |
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------'

Re: [LHA-misc] You want opinions? (was: Another article ...)

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

John wrote:
> 
> Yes, I've got some nerve popping up from the depths a launching
> torpedoes...

Torpedoes in the water ...
 
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:
> 
> > So where does the project stand (I your opinion, of course)? Don't be
> > afraid to hit me hard if you feel it's necessary. I'm not really sure
> > I know what I'm doing, I just know what I want!
> 

> Without strong management, everybody scratches their particular itch and
> rare is the developer who itches for QA, documentation, or effective UI
> design.  Weak management never has the will to halt new feature work in
> favor of bug resolution when a release is imminent.

This is what I hope to provide, it sounds like I'm on the right track but
the progress is very slow (I've gotten used to internet time, everything
fast).

> My Goals wishlist:
> 
> V1.0
> - UI agnostic <-- This just saved my butt[1].
> - Device agnostic
> - Common device properties
> - Extensible device properties

Nice list
 
> V2.0
> - Inter-server communications
> 
> If these elements are properly defined, scalibility comes for free.  It
> provides a lot of flexibility.  As long as somebody can write a driver for
> their bright shiny new toy, we can support it.  Want to support telnet,
> web, and LCDproc clients?  As long as they can work with the common UI
> specification, not a problem.  Yes, yes, it's my 'frameworks' argument.

We look real good right here, our interface is telnet and ASCII. This
simplifies most of the development and debugging. I am having a tough time
with what the standard commands should be. I may simply say: If x10 is
supported on device X then accept on a1, off p16, dim/bright as the basics
for X10. Then say: xmcd (extended command) ..., and xdata (extended data)
... .

The standard commands have been a problem, I have devices with digital,
analog and X10. I want only 1 set of commands for the x10 no matter what
(same holds true for digital I/O and analog I/O). I prefer to keep the
database of device names to I/O names out of the device interface. Though
I'm not sure if that's such a good idea yet.

The basics for X10 are the sending of on/off dim/bright commands. The next
level is the receiving of commands (from RF or power line). The next level
is extended commands. Somewhere in there is the Leviton preset stuff and
similar unusual commands. 

> And to be completely harsh: you want funding?  You need to have a fairly
> solid 1.0 release firmly under your belt and be well on the way to
> V2.0.  Gone are the heady days of the Internet Gold Rush of '99.  The new
> millenium *demands* profitability.  Come, let us build the new Silicon
> Valley over the abandoned mine...

I don't expect funding anytime soon, it's just a dream right now. But you
are 110% correct. Unless we have something good to show venders will have
no interest in the product.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

Re: [LHA-misc] Help - So many linux HA options

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

HGu...@ao... wrote:
> 
> Ok,
> 
> Thanks for the very quick reply, so lets get down to further understanding
> and maybe I can lend a hand where fit.
> 
> I see the CM-11A a major need so lets start there,
> Is Dan Lanciani's code GPL? If not would he be interested ?  The X10d works
> pretty well (compiles and installs with no problems) but needs Docs,
> makefile, and install scripts (maybe an RPM too). If it's GPL it would be
> easy to add these things and finish that off.

I've spoken to Dan and he doesn't want to GPL his code. That is his option so
I respect that. Please don't read anything into my words as he is not harsh
about it.

As far as docs, you'll find them at:

http://members.home.net/ncherry/common/README.html

> So if I were to want to add a new interface I would use the same basic code
> as from X10d and use a sockets interface? With some good comments maybe Dan
> Lanciani's code could serve as a prototype for other devices.

I'm hoping my code is an able replacement for his, there are certain things
my code does that his doesn't. I still need to work on a few more things to
finish that off.
 
> I like the idea of a layered ISO modeled system. Every controller would have
> a sockets interface that talks ASCII commands, cool! Just telnet in to test.
> Just about all languages support sockets interface.

This seems to make the most sense, most of the time.
 
> Ok now what about Karl Denninger's HomeDaemon? It also talks directly to some
> devices and uses Shared memory (don't care much for shared memory, but guess
> it works). It needs to be able to know about talk to the other controllers
> through sockets. As you said, that program need to be changed.

There are 2 ways to approach this, the first is to build tools around his code.
The second is to modify his code. I'll eventually do both, first add tools then
rewrite his code so it will support the other daemons.

> Has anyone gotten the CGI part to work on Homedaemon? Could someone document
> how it works?  It would be cool to have the Homedaemon  to listen on a socket
> for commands and display event (like a monitor) but maybe I'm getting too far
> ahead.

I've got it working but I don't care much for it. I'll try to document how I
got it working and what the parts mean. Homedeamon actuall does listen on a
socket connected to the X10d port and it can exec commands depending what the
X10d reports. Also if you change chared memory values it can trigger events
also.
 
> As far as GUI, I kind of like the idea of doing it in JAVA, but Tk/TCl will
> work find too. Seems like the GUI needs to talk to the HomeDaemon though
> because the Homedaemon understands device names (alias's).

Java is OK, I've found it to kill performance on most of my boxes. But it
is easier for the end user to use an applet when they hit a page. I think
you might find that a combo of Java, and PHP can make for some interesting
pages.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

Re: [LHA-misc] lonworks

[John <jk...@pr...>]

On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> I just had an interesting conversation with a vendor on Lonworks. His take
> is that Lonworks is already here and in large scale production.

Lonworks salesmen are quite passionate about their product aren't
they?  Yes, they seem to be very big in high margin businesses: commercial
power and home theatre (Phast).

I got into an argument with FredG on CHA about two years ago for my
opinion: their business model is completely backwards.  Instead of
providing a free or low cost development environment and making money off
the modules, the modules are inexpensive but their development environment
is extraordinarily expensive.  Garage developers need not apply.

Except for Phast and *maybe* the power companies transmitting rate info
using the LON protocol over power-lines I've seen very little use of
Lonworks in HA (lighting, HVAC, security, entertainment equipment).

Sure, there's an appnote somewhere for the Lonworks controlled
lightbulb ($20 parts 'n labor).  But I've seen the same for a PIC
processor ($5 parts 'n labor).

Even if someone *does* introduce a line of LON controled HA devices,
that's just a driver and an interface away from being a LinuxHA device,
eh?

We've got little to worry about from LON.

[LHA-misc] You want opinions? (was: Another article ...)

[John <jk...@pr...>]

Yes, I've got some nerve popping up from the depths a launching
torpedoes...

On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> So where does the project stand (I your opinion, of course)? Don't be
> afraid to hit me hard if you feel it's necessary. I'm not really sure
> I know what I'm doing, I just know what I want!

  There are two words which don't get much play in Linux development
  projects: Requirements and Design.

Wow.  Let's just shred 99% of all SourceForge projects in one sentence.
Think about the successful OpenSource projects in both quantity and
quality.  

Quantitatively, the amount of active projects compared with the total body
of project startups makes the successful ones pretty rare.  Overall
quality is fairly low.  My suspicion is lack of project management.

Without strong management, everybody scratches their particular itch and
rare is the developer who itches for QA, documentation, or effective UI
design.  Weak management never has the will to halt new feature work in
favor of bug resolution when a release is imminent.

Requirements and Design are *excellent* management tools.  Not only do you
know where you are going, you have a fairly good idea of how.  Without
paying these up-front dues you get monolithic, non-scalable, user-hostile
applications.

Proof-of-concept code and RAD tools are good *tools*, but I've seen FAR
too many of these types of projects become The Final Release.  (I'm sorry,
RAD generated code is just not capable of supporting enterprise-level
applications).

  ... avoid writing code too soon!

Amen.  Think about your goals.  Consider that the goals you set now will
be need to sustain the project for the next three years.  The Mozilla
project (rightly) shifted gears one year into implementation.  While it
was the right decision, it cost them 6mo. to 1 year.

My Goals wishlist:

V1.0
- UI agnostic <-- This just saved my butt[1].
- Device agnostic
- Common device properties
- Extensible device properties

V2.0
- Inter-server communications

If these elements are properly defined, scalibility comes for free.  It
provides a lot of flexibility.  As long as somebody can write a driver for
their bright shiny new toy, we can support it.  Want to support telnet,
web, and LCDproc clients?  As long as they can work with the common UI
specification, not a problem.  Yes, yes, it's my 'frameworks' argument.

And to be completely harsh: you want funding?  You need to have a fairly
solid 1.0 release firmly under your belt and be well on the way to
V2.0.  Gone are the heady days of the Internet Gold Rush of '99.  The new
millenium *demands* profitability.  Come, let us build the new Silicon
Valley over the abandoned mine...

Ok, so I haven't had much sleep in the last two weeks...

john

[1] Started out as a Java (Swing) based application.  Performance concerns
have caused us to rethink it as a web application.  Luckily, I made the
front end fairly stupid w.r.t the project.  Sadly, that 33% of my time is
wasted.

Re: [LHA-misc] Help - So many linux HA options

[Lee N. <le...@ba...>]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, HGu...@ao... scribbled,
> 
> I see the CM-11A a major need so lets start there,
> Is Dan Lanciani's code GPL? If not would he be interested ?  The X10d works 
> pretty well (compiles and installs with no problems) but needs Docs, 
> makefile, and install scripts (maybe an RPM too). If it's GPL it would be 
> easy to add these things and finish that off.

Has anybody talked to Dan about LHA and his code?  

> 
> So if I were to want to add a new interface I would use the same basic code 
> as from X10d and use a sockets interface? With some good comments maybe Dan 
> Lanciani's code could serve as a prototype for other devices.

Both Neil(HCS) and Mark(CPUXA) have working code similiar to Dan's.  At this
point, I think we need to come up with a code base (which Neil trying to
work on).  Kill some of that rework.

> Ok now what about Karl Denninger's HomeDaemon? It also talks directly to some 
> devices and uses Shared memory (don't care much for shared memory, but guess 
> it works). It needs to be able to know about talk to the other controllers 
> through sockets. As you said, that program need to be changed. 

Karl's software uses X10d and could be patched to work with the others.
Again, it would make Karl's life easier if he didn't have to worry about
the particulars of each daemon, just the functionality of each device.

> As far as GUI, I kind of like the idea of doing it in JAVA, but Tk/TCl will 
> work find too. Seems like the GUI needs to talk to the HomeDaemon though 
> because the Homedaemon understands device names (alias's).

I'm not a particular fan of Java, but why not just a simple browser interface
written in php/perl/html.  That way all those smart web enabled appliance's
will be able to control the rest of the house (and so to the Maytag repairman).

-lee

.--------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Lee Nash                                    The 3D Computing Solution    |
| Badencorp                                                                |
| 101 Sunnytown Rd, Suite 208                    Fax: (407)260-0584        |
| Casselberry, Fl 32707                          Tel: (407)260-2777        |
| www.badencorp.com                            Email:le...@ba...     |
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------'

Re: [LHA-misc] Help - So many linux HA options

[<HGu...@ao...>]

Ok,

Thanks for the very quick reply, so lets get down to further understanding 
and maybe I can lend a hand where fit.

I see the CM-11A a major need so lets start there,
Is Dan Lanciani's code GPL? If not would he be interested ?  The X10d works 
pretty well (compiles and installs with no problems) but needs Docs, 
makefile, and install scripts (maybe an RPM too). If it's GPL it would be 
easy to add these things and finish that off.

So if I were to want to add a new interface I would use the same basic code 
as from X10d and use a sockets interface? With some good comments maybe Dan 
Lanciani's code could serve as a prototype for other devices.

I like the idea of a layered ISO modeled system. Every controller would have 
a sockets interface that talks ASCII commands, cool! Just telnet in to test. 
Just about all languages support sockets interface.

Ok now what about Karl Denninger's HomeDaemon? It also talks directly to some 
devices and uses Shared memory (don't care much for shared memory, but guess 
it works). It needs to be able to know about talk to the other controllers 
through sockets. As you said, that program need to be changed. 

Has anyone gotten the CGI part to work on Homedaemon? Could someone document 
how it works?  It would be cool to have the Homedaemon  to listen on a socket 
for commands and display event (like a monitor) but maybe I'm getting too far 
ahead.

As far as GUI, I kind of like the idea of doing it in JAVA, but Tk/TCl will 
work find too. Seems like the GUI needs to talk to the HomeDaemon though 
because the Homedaemon understands device names (alias's).

H. Gunner

In a message dated 11/6/00 9:19:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, nc...@ho... 
writes:

> HGu...@ao... wrote:
>  
>  > Thanks Mr. Cherry for the great web site and articals.
>  
>  Thank you also. :-)
>  
>  > The automation devices I have:
>  
>  I'll add thoses to the tally
>  
>  > Now finnally the questions,
>  > 
>  > I've looked at source forge project (LinuxHA) and it appears this is 
only 
> for
>  > the HCS system (is that true)? Is linux HA focusing on the HCS stuff or 
> are
>  > there plans to add devices to Linux platform (and how would that happen?)
>  
>  The HCS code is based on Dan's X10d (for the CM11A, he also has one for the
>  LynX10). The focus will be on variuos controllers, the next being the 
Ocelot
>  family of controllers. I may be able to through in the CP290 right away.
>  
>  The reason it looks like just the one controller is that is what I started
>  with. I need to get a stable base then start porting to other controllers.
>  
>  I'm not much of a GUI person, I like text file configs but I do realize
>  that others need something more intuitive. The next step is actually to
>  adapt the HomeDaemon to use the new controllers. Then it's off the the user
>  interface. I've started to build Perl/TK programs that run on either Win95
>  or Linux (I haven't tested it with anything else) for the HCS. Perl permits
>  me to write quick and dirty code.
>  
>  > Is the idea to build upon the X10d (or similar program for each 
interface)?
> 
>  > How does the architecture handle many differing interfaces (sockets, 
> shared
>  > memory)? What about user interface (is there any for the Homedaemon)? Any
>  > Documenattion for using HomeDaemon's CGI?
>  
>  It's basically a status <device_number>, where device number is A1 = 0
>  B1 = 16, P16 = 255 (0 - 255). I think he's docuemented it a bit in the 
> latest
>  release. It is still a bit confusing since the device name has to do with 
> the
>  info the fills in the table of the status page.
>  
>  > Also finally, Does anyone have any experience with the commercial 
packages
>  > available for Linux Home automation  (ECS).
>  
>  I just started to play with ECS, Mark Gilmore has been very helpful. My
>  system isn't even close to being stock (it's distributed). I hope to get
>  a little more time to play with it soon.
>  

Re: [LHA-misc] Help - So many linux HA options

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

HGu...@ao... wrote:

> Thanks Mr. Cherry for the great web site and articals.

Thank you also. :-)

> The automation devices I have:

I'll add thoses to the tally

> Now finnally the questions,
> 
> I've looked at source forge project (LinuxHA) and it appears this is only for
> the HCS system (is that true)? Is linux HA focusing on the HCS stuff or are
> there plans to add devices to Linux platform (and how would that happen?)

The HCS code is based on Dan's X10d (for the CM11A, he also has one for the
LynX10). The focus will be on variuos controllers, the next being the Ocelot
family of controllers. I may be able to through in the CP290 right away.

The reason it looks like just the one controller is that is what I started
with. I need to get a stable base then start porting to other controllers.

I'm not much of a GUI person, I like text file configs but I do realize
that others need something more intuitive. The next step is actually to
adapt the HomeDaemon to use the new controllers. Then it's off the the user
interface. I've started to build Perl/TK programs that run on either Win95
or Linux (I haven't tested it with anything else) for the HCS. Perl permits
me to write quick and dirty code.

> Is the idea to build upon the X10d (or similar program for each interface)?
> How does the architecture handle many differing interfaces (sockets, shared
> memory)? What about user interface (is there any for the Homedaemon)? Any
> Documenattion for using HomeDaemon's CGI?

It's basically a status <device_number>, where device number is A1 = 0
B1 = 16, P16 = 255 (0 - 255). I think he's docuemented it a bit in the latest
release. It is still a bit confusing since the device name has to do with the
info the fills in the table of the status page.

> Also finally, Does anyone have any experience with the commercial packages
> available for Linux Home automation  (ECS).

I just started to play with ECS, Mark Gilmore has been very helpful. My
system isn't even close to being stock (it's distributed). I hope to get
a little more time to play with it soon.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

[LHA-misc] Help - So many linux HA options

[<HGu...@ao...>]

Hi everyone,  I'm new to the Linux HA thing. I've been running my system with 
a custom written home automation software I wrote under Windows. I've been 
using Unix for 15 years+ (Linux for 5 years) so its became time to research 
the Linux Alternatives.

Thanks Mr. Cherry for the great web site and articals.
The automation devices I have:
CM-11A
Nirvis Slink-e
Statnet
RCS Thermostat (X10)
Napco


For X10 (and some other interafces) these are the alternatives I see with 
open Source: 
   Either using Dan Lanciani's X10d  and Homedaemon (no user interface??)
Or,
  Heyu and Xtend (Heyu works pretty well, but I couldn't get Xtend to work or 
the user interface)
Or,
  Bruce Winter's Mister House (Huge perl app, monilithic, crashed on my 
machine easily, but Lot's of interfaces supported and lots of features)

Now finnally the questions, 

I've looked at source forge project (LinuxHA) and it appears this is only for 
the HCS system (is that true)? Is linux HA focusing on the HCS stuff or are 
there plans to add devices to Linux platform (and how would that happen?)

Is the idea to build upon the X10d (or similar program for each interface)? 
How does the architecture handle many differing interfaces (sockets, shared 
memory)? What about user interface (is there any for the Homedaemon)? Any 
Documenattion for using HomeDaemon's CGI?

Also finally, Does anyone have any experience with the commercial packages 
available for Linux Home automation  (ECS).

Thanks,
H. Gunner

Re: [LHA-misc] lonworks

[C. R. B. I. <cr...@ea...>]

Date sent:      	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:36:49 -0500
From:           	Neil Cherry <nc...@ho...>
Organization:   	Linux Home Automation
To:             	lin...@li...
Subject:        	Re: [LHA-misc] lonworks
Send reply to:  	lin...@li...

> > 
> > On a side note (and an interesting one at that), I spoke with a few
> > vendors at the EH Expo who develop periperhals and controllers that use
> > RS-485 networks to communicate (they'll remain nameless but you can
> > probably guess)  One idea that was tossed about was possibly developing
> > a standard control protocol for HA RS-485 networks.  This way a
> > controller from one vendor could be used with the peripherals from
> > another and vice versa.
> > 

> > It was just talk, but I was excited by it and plan to pursue it in what
> > limited time I have.  THough many folks said RS-485 basedf HA was doomed
> > by PC based systems, they are still alive and well with multiple vendors
> > developing products (both separately and together)
> 
---x---
> 
> > I mention this because I'd want to make sure you all were involved since
> > I expect that Linux HA would be RS-485 capable at some point and I'd
> > want it to be able to support a std protocol if one was ever developed.
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> 

I think it's sufficiently important that the project should be 
collecting specs and docs on every RS485-based protocol that comes 
along, not only for reference material towards designing one or more 
appropriate protocols for LHA purposes, but also for providing 
translation layers so that devices which speak those protocols can be 
brought under the umbrella.

Some of the translations may be mere packet translation, and those 
can be handled within the host. Others (particularly for access-
control, where frequent polling and peremptory challenges are part of 
how you make sure the reader-terminal at the end of the wire is still 
the one you installed there) will have to be managed by 
microcontrollers, in which case having a 'lingua franca' that's wide 
enough, and with a wide-enough address space, to handle the required 
messaging, will allow the MCU code to be done cleanly.

I don't think RS485 is going to go away anytime soon. Despite the 
lack of a single standard protocol equivalent to the Hayes command-
set for RS232 modems, ANSI/VT100 screen controls for VDTs, and 
slip/ppp for serial network connections, it's still the most cost-
effective way to talk fast to a small embedded box at the other end 
of a local wire, equivalent to I2C for on-board / in-system 
connections and four-wire optoisolated serial for longer wire runs 
and runs in hostile territory.

cr

[LHA-misc] CP290

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

Well, Paul, you're in luck. I just found my CP290 while sorting out my
rack and inserting the Cisco 500CS (terminal server). I may get a chance
to play with it in the next few weeks. I guess I should test it first.

But the top priority is the hcsd code which I'm working on right now.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

Re: [LHA-misc] Today's count

[Sean M. <se...@ma...>]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Dan Rich wrote:
[...]
>
> I never really thought about it, but I suppose I could map my CPU-XA stats
> into SNMP and graph that with mrtg....hmmm.......

MRTG and rrdtoool don't need SNMP; they can call a script and use the data
it returns. If your can quantify something, you can user MRTG and/or
rrdtool to record it.

Sean McGrath
se...@ma...

Re: [LHA-misc] Today's count

[Sean M. <se...@ma...>]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> Konrad Riedel wrote:
> > I've a project with a DS9097U connected to 20-30 DS1820 (temp sensors) to
> > monitor temperatures (with rrdtool).

[Sean McGrath, butting in]

I am using a 'temp256' kit from Peter Anderson
(http://www.phanderson.com/t64.html); a PIC based system that does up to
256 DS1820 sensors (and some A/D, DIO) to a serial interface.
http://www.phanderson.com/ is a good source of hardware info and projects.

(for your list, I also have a CPUXA, SEC16, an old X10 TouchLinc (Anyone
else think 'Salid' was promising?))

>
> Konrad what is 'rrdtool'?
>

See http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/webtools/rrdtool/
'rrd' = round robin database. rrdtool stores periodic
data samples, can due computations, averaging, ... and
produces web graphs of the data. It originated from
MRTG, the Multi Router Traffic Grapher,
http://ee-staff.ethz.ch/~oetiker/webtools/MRTG
which is in wide use for network and computer data recording
and display.

I am using rrdtool for temprature recording and graphing and
am working on adding rain and wind. Thinking about recording
electric use.

--
Sean McGrath
se...@ma...

Re: [LHA-misc] Today's count

[Dan R. <dr...@em...>]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> Konrad Riedel wrote:
> > I've a project with a DS9097U connected to 20-30 DS1820 (temp sensors) to
> > monitor temperatures (with rrdtool).
> 
> Konrad what is 'rrdtool'?

I'm not Konrad :), but rrdtool is the follow-on software for mrtg.

For those of you who haven't used it, mrtg is a free SNMP monitoring
package.  You can find out more information than you ever wanted at:
	http://www.mrtg.org/

I use it at work for data collection from all of our routers, switches,
and servers.

I never really thought about it, but I suppose I could map my CPU-XA stats
into SNMP and graph that with mrtg....hmmm.......

-- 
Dan Rich <dr...@em...> |   http://www.employees.org/~drich/
                               | "Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!" 
                               |   "No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
                               |          -- The Firesign Theatre's Nick Danger

Re: [LHA-misc] Today's count

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

I've posted the count to the LHA project page:

http://LinuxHA.sourceforge.net/lha.support.table.php

not all the links are working yet (later tonight) and I need the rest
of the links. I'd like each entry to have a link to software for Linux
and it's vender if possible.

Thanks

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

[LHA-misc] Re: [LHA-misc]

[Clay J. <cl...@nw...>]

OK - here's my list:

Controllers - CM11A
                    CM17

Devices -
                Earthlink GPS (for time sync)
                Davis Weather Monitor II
                The ususal assortment of X10 devices and controllers

Clay Jackson
cl...@nw...

Re: [LHA-misc] UPnP

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

Konrad Riedel wrote:
> 
> Am Mon, 30.Oct  2000 um 12:29 schrieb Neil Cherry:
> >
> > Jay, I think your going to get your wish on XML, UPnP is heavily into
> > XML.
> >
> > I've restarted coding on the HCSD, I want to finish that first so I can
> > release it. I'll then begin work on the raw and Ocelot agent. The raw
> > agent is a simple single user r/w access to the serial port. I'll have
> > to figure out a way to permit multiple listeners with only 1 speaker.
> > The Ocelot will permit multiple listeners and speakers. I have not figured
> > out how to keep the speakers from contradicting each other. I've also
> > not figured out the security for such a setup. This will be worked on
> > over time.

> This is exactly the problem I`ve solved with caracad. At the moment its
> transmitting CAN-Messages over the serial line.
> Your need a client-server approach.
> 
> Concept:
>     To allow different applications read/write access to the CAN-Bus, a
>     daemon (caracad) is used. A client can connect to it via a socket
>     and tell caracad, which messages it wants to receive. (it installs a
>     filter - 'I want to have all key messages, all messages of one room,..'
>     caracad then sends a message to each listener.
>     All clients send their messages to caracad, which transmits them over
>     the serial line.
> 

Pardon the confusion I've caused, the problem with multiple speakers is
for the rawd. The intent is that any device can be hooked to the rawd and
the client software takes care of communications. Rawd just passes every
byte untouched. Rawd has no way of knowing what a command looks like.

The hcsd uses a setup like yours, the commands are entered a line at a
time. Then processed into the appropriate HCS command and dropped into
a buffer (a buffer of pointers actually). The output process then reads
from the buffer and send out the command. There is no way to confuse 2
commands together.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

Re: [LHA-misc] Today's count

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

Konrad Riedel wrote:
> I've a project with a DS9097U connected to 20-30 DS1820 (temp sensors) to
> monitor temperatures (with rrdtool).

Konrad what is 'rrdtool'?

I've added your count to the DS9097U, thanks.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

Re: [LHA-misc] Today's count

[Konrad R. <k.r...@gm...>]

Am Thu, 02.Nov  2000 um 05:51 schrieb Neil Cherry:
> Here is the current count, I've taken the liberty of adding a few users
> to the list as they may be too busy to respond right now.
> 
> Device          Count   Notes
> ==============  =====   ================================================
>  CP290            4
>  Firecracker      3
>  Ocelot/CPUXA     5     (I've included MAD)
>  Leopard          2
>  HCS II           3     (I've included M.Baptiste)
>  CM11A            5
>  LynX10           1
>  SlinkE           1
>  ALC              1     (I've include John Klar)
>  HTH PLC          1
>  HouseLinc        1
>  StarGate         1
>  OmniPro          1
>  TimeCommander    0
>  Elk              0
>  PowerLinc        0
>  HCS III          0	
>  Lonworks         0
>  CEBus            0
   Caraca (CAN-Bus) 2
> 
> Not necessarily controllers (very grey area).
> 
> Device          Count   Notes
> ==============  =====   ================================================
> Clipsal CBUS      1	relay and dimmer units
> Red rat		  1
> JetEye PC         1
> Napco P9600       1
> AppDig SECU-16    1
>  SECU-16I         1
>  SECU-IR          1
>  RLY8XA           1
> Onewire Weather   2	feed from DalSemi w/Arne's software via UDP
> Opto-22 I/O       1
> Advantech PCL-XXX 1   	Relay cards
> TINI		  4     Dallas TINI boards
> WX200             1     Waether Station (AKA WM918)
> DS9097U           1     Dallas Onewire serial interface
I've a project with a DS9097U connected to 20-30 DS1820 (temp sensors) to
monitor temperatures (with rrdtool). 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Konrad Riedel

Re: [LHA-misc] Security System Recomendations

[Mike B. <bap...@cc...>]

Jon,

I have the Power 832 from DSC.  It can have 2 partitions and up to 32 
zones.  It works VERY well and has X-10 capability.  It also has a 8-bit 
output module you can get which you can feed to an HCS or other HA 
system.  This is what I did and it works great (I don't use the X-10 
stuff on it)  If that is too small, DSC is just about to release a Power 
864 which can be partitioned into 8 areas and supports up to 64 zones.

I believe the NetworX by Caddx can also be partitioned and many vendors 
are adding DIRECT serial support for it to their controllers (I know 
Jeff Stien at JDS/Stargate is and we are looking into it)  ELk's Magic 
Module already has a Caddx interface.

I'd go with either though I've not used the NetworX (I've got one 
ordered to play with) But I've heard very good things about it.

Mike

Jon Finke wrote:

> Folks,
> 
> This might be marginally off topic, but I have a great deal of respect for
> the opinions of the folks who contribute to this list.
> 
> I recently aquired the house next door to my present home.  It is need of a
> gut rehab (pictures and stuff can be seen at my web page,
> http://www.rpi.edu/~finkej).  Part of that includes rewiring everything,
> power, phone, network, catv, security.  I have been using X10 for many
> years, have an HCS-II and Slink-e controllers.  My plans are to eventually
> bridge the two houses and make them into one big house.
> 
> My current issue is installing a security system.  While I am alarming the
> new house, I might as well redo my old house.  What I am looking for, is a
> system that can be initial partitioned into to logical buildings (well, it
> is two physical buildings), each with their own set of entrances, etc.
> Then when I bridge the buildings, reprogram the system to act as one house
> (or possibly move the partioning to handle an office in one part of the new
> house.)
> 
> One important consideration, would be to have this alarm system drive parts
> of the home automation - since I need motion detectors and door switches
> anyway, I would like to have that info feed into lighting control systems,
> either X10 or otherwise.
> 
> So my question is, what makes/models of alarm systems interface well to
> home automation systems (ideally HCS-II, but others are ok).  I do intend
> to have a Linux based system available 7x24 to assist in home control if
> needed.)  Oh, I plan to do the wiring myself, so I need to be able to buy
> the hardware from dealers and not have to go through an installer. 
> 
> TIA..
> 
> Jon Finke                                        fi...@rp...
> Senior Systems Programmer            http://www.rpi.edu/~finkej
> Server Support Services         518 276 8185 (voice) 2809 (fax)
> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180
> _______________________________________________
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/linuxha-misc
> To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe Linuxha-misc"
> in the body of a message to  Lin...@li...


-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mike Baptiste                    bap...@cc...
Creative Control Concepts     http://www.cc-concepts.com/
** Home Automation Products for the Serious Enthusiast **
Check out the new HA FAQ http://www.automationfaq.com/
Our Home Renovation http://www.baptistefamily.net/remodel
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Re: [LHA-misc] What controllers do you have?

[Jon F. <fi...@rp...>]

Mike,

I appreciate the offer.  I had suspected the MAX232 (based on comments on
mailing lists.) and since I have a spare (from my PL-Link card), that would
be one of the first things I tried.  Once I find some time to get my HA
stuff going again, getting the HCS2 back online will be a high priority.

At 04:21 PM 10/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Jon,
>
>If you need any help getting your HCS-II running again, let me know. 
>90% of the time it is as simple as replacing the MAX232.  Transients can 
>often kill the MAX232s (which is why we now use ESD hardened versions of 
>that chip and the RS-485 chip)
>
>Mike
>
>Jon Finke wrote:
>
>> I have an HCS-II (currently offline - was non functional when I had to move
>> it), and a SLINK-E (www.nirvis.com).  Oh, and a CP290 somewhere.
>> 
>> 
>
>-- 
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Mike Baptiste                    bap...@cc...
>Creative Control Concepts     http://www.cc-concepts.com/
>** Home Automation Products for the Serious Enthusiast **
>Check out the new HA FAQ http://www.automationfaq.com/
>Our Home Renovation http://www.baptistefamily.net/remodel
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/linuxha-misc
>To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe Linuxha-misc"
>in the body of a message to  Lin...@li...
>
>

Jon Finke                                        fi...@rp...
Senior Systems Programmer            http://www.rpi.edu/~finkej
Server Support Services         518 276 8185 (voice) 2809 (fax)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180

[LHA-misc] Security System Recomendations

[Jon F. <fi...@rp...>]

Folks,

This might be marginally off topic, but I have a great deal of respect for
the opinions of the folks who contribute to this list.

I recently aquired the house next door to my present home.  It is need of a
gut rehab (pictures and stuff can be seen at my web page,
http://www.rpi.edu/~finkej).  Part of that includes rewiring everything,
power, phone, network, catv, security.  I have been using X10 for many
years, have an HCS-II and Slink-e controllers.  My plans are to eventually
bridge the two houses and make them into one big house.

My current issue is installing a security system.  While I am alarming the
new house, I might as well redo my old house.  What I am looking for, is a
system that can be initial partitioned into to logical buildings (well, it
is two physical buildings), each with their own set of entrances, etc.
Then when I bridge the buildings, reprogram the system to act as one house
(or possibly move the partioning to handle an office in one part of the new
house.)

One important consideration, would be to have this alarm system drive parts
of the home automation - since I need motion detectors and door switches
anyway, I would like to have that info feed into lighting control systems,
either X10 or otherwise.

So my question is, what makes/models of alarm systems interface well to
home automation systems (ideally HCS-II, but others are ok).  I do intend
to have a Linux based system available 7x24 to assist in home control if
needed.)  Oh, I plan to do the wiring myself, so I need to be able to buy
the hardware from dealers and not have to go through an installer. 

TIA..

Jon Finke                                        fi...@rp...
Senior Systems Programmer            http://www.rpi.edu/~finkej
Server Support Services         518 276 8185 (voice) 2809 (fax)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 110 8th Street, Troy, NY 12180

Re: [LHA-misc] lonworks

[Mike B. <bap...@cc...>]

ELK Products makes a nice little unit that uses a 12Cxxx unit of some 
kind.  It works very well and is not very expensive (around $50 - 60 I 
think)

Mike

Neil Cherry wrote:

> There is an RS232 - RS485 interface based on a PIC available from the PIC
> (rats, can't find the link). But I've saved it, somewhere on my system.


-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mike Baptiste                    bap...@cc...
Creative Control Concepts     http://www.cc-concepts.com/
** Home Automation Products for the Serious Enthusiast **
Check out the new HA FAQ http://www.automationfaq.com/
Our Home Renovation http://www.baptistefamily.net/remodel
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Re: [LHA-misc] lonworks

[Neil C. <nc...@ho...>]

Mike Baptiste wrote:
> 
> I look at it this way.  You develop your core product in a way that is
> fairly 'open' and flexible.
> 
> Then, as new and exciting technologies come out, you add support for
> them.  Granted some will be more difficult than others, but...
> 
> As a point, I'm trying to add support for all sorts of 3rd party stuff
> for the HCS-II.  Things like RCS/Enerzone tstats, the JDS keypads, the
> new 240 phrase ELK voice module, etc, etc.  Why?  Because it makes the
> system more useful and attractive.

A very good job of it too, one that's appreciate (including the fact that
you've kept the kits going too!).
 
> I'd say the same holds for Linux HA.
> 
> On a side note (and an interesting one at that), I spoke with a few
> vendors at the EH Expo who develop periperhals and controllers that use
> RS-485 networks to communicate (they'll remain nameless but you can
> probably guess)  One idea that was tossed about was possibly developing
> a standard control protocol for HA RS-485 networks.  This way a
> controller from one vendor could be used with the peripherals from
> another and vice versa.
> 
> It was just talk, but I was excited by it and plan to pursue it in what
> limited time I have.  THough many folks said RS-485 basedf HA was doomed
> by PC based systems, they are still alive and well with multiple vendors
> developing products (both separately and together)

Good point, sometime overkill is just overkill.
 
> I mention this because I'd want to make sure you all were involved since
> I expect that Linux HA would be RS-485 capable at some point and I'd
> want it to be able to support a std protocol if one was ever developed.
> 
> Thoughts?

Steve Rodger HANd project (http://members.home.net/highwaystar/han.html)
uses RS485 and HTH's S.N.A.P (http://www.hth.com/snap/) to access the
RS485 nodes he has created, it runs under Linux.

There is an RS232 - RS485 interface based on a PIC available from the PIC
(rats, can't find the link). But I've saved it, somewhere on my system.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             nc...@ho...
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)