linuxconsole-dev

hello...and MS-FF2...

[Rodrigo D. <cu...@uo...>]

    Hello...I just joined this list...I'm interested in helping develop=20
support for the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2...I have that=20
joystick and have a working copy of Bus Hound(I cracked the demo version=20
to log past 4Kb), but I don't know how to interpret some of the hex=20
data...I've realized some things, for example a phase that starts with=20
01 is to report buttons and axes, "02 32 00" is when you hold the=20
stick(there's a little sensor), "02 36 00" is when you release it, and=20
so on...
    On the bottom of the joystick it says it uses I-Force licensed to=20
Microsoft from Immersion Corp....is it just basic I-Force? If so how do=20
we get it to work in linux?? Has anyone worked on this?
    Anyway, I'm willing to help implement this...

Rodrigo

--=20
*******************************
* Rodrigo Damazio             *
* *************************** *
* cu...@uo...           *
* rod...@po... *
* ICQ: #3560450               *
* http://www.vros.com/cuddly/ *
* *************************** *
* Engenharia da Computa=E7=E3o    *
* Escola Polit=E9cnica          *
* USP - S=E3o Paulo             *
*******************************

Re: hello...and MS-FF2...

[Bj|rn A. <d3a...@dt...>]

Quoting Rodrigo Damazio <cu...@uo...>:
>     Hello...I just joined this list...I'm interested in helping develop 
> support for the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2...I have that 
> joystick

So do I, and I've been working on supporting it for the last week.
Have a look at the archives of this list and usb-devel.

> I don't know how to interpret some of the hex 
> data...I've realized some things, for example a phase that starts with 
> 01 is to report buttons and axes, "02 32 00" is when you hold the 
> stick(there's a little sensor), "02 36 00" is when you release it, and 
> so on...

Can you send me the dumps you have? That could really help me understand
some problems I'm having. I started from the other direction, from the 
spec down, instead of from the wires up.

>     On the bottom of the joystick it says it uses I-Force licensed to 
> Microsoft from Immersion Corp....is it just basic I-Force? If so how do 
> we get it to work in linux?? Has anyone worked on this?

Nope, it's a HID/PID device. There's specs for that on www.usb.org, and
that will help you understand your dumps.

>     Anyway, I'm willing to help implement this...

Great! I hope to have some patches by tomorrow.

/August.
-- 
Wrong on most accounts.  const Foo *foo; and Foo const *foo; mean the same: foo
being a pointer to const Foo.  const Foo const *foo; would mean the same but is
illegal (double const).  You are confusing this with Foo * const foo; and const
Foo * const foo; respectively. -David Kastrup, comp.os.linux.development.system

Re: hello...and MS-FF2...

[Rodrigo D. <cu...@uo...>]

Bj|rn Augustsson wrote:

>Quoting Rodrigo Damazio <cu...@uo...>:
>
>>    Hello...I just joined this list...I'm interested in helping develop=
=20
>>support for the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2...I have that=20
>>joystick
>>
>
>So do I, and I've been working on supporting it for the last week.
>Have a look at the archives of this list and usb-devel.
>
       I've read it...
        Regarding the HID-specific stuff which isn't supported through=20
the event API, such as binding physical units, how about using a=20
"/dev/usb/hidsomething" device which could control this?? I guess this=20
is more generic than creating it on the "jsx" device because it applies=20
to many kinds of HIDs, not just joysticks...

>>I don't know how to interpret some of the hex=20
>>data...I've realized some things, for example a phase that starts with=20
>>01 is to report buttons and axes, "02 32 00" is when you hold the=20
>>stick(there's a little sensor), "02 36 00" is when you release it, and=20
>>so on...
>>
>
>Can you send me the dumps you have? That could really help me understand
>some problems I'm having. I started from the other direction, from the=20
>spec down, instead of from the wires up.
>
        I have looked at the specs too, but at first sight they didn't=20
help much, mostly because I had never looked at USB in a low level...but=20
I'll look at them better tonight...does this joystick follow those specs=20
then? Or do we really have to guess how it works?
        I'll send you some dumps by e-mail(so as not to clutter up the=20
mailing list)...do have Immersion Studio?? If not you should get it,=20
because my dumps are all done while using it(I set it to use the SFF2=20
through DirectInput)...then you can know what was happening during each=20
dump...

>>    Anyway, I'm willing to help implement this...
>>
>
>Great! I hope to have some patches by tomorrow.
>
        Cool....

Rodrigo

--=20
*******************************
* Rodrigo Damazio             *
* *************************** *
* cu...@uo...           *
* rod...@po... *
* ICQ: #3560450               *
* http://www.vros.com/cuddly/ *
* *************************** *
* Computing Engineering       *
* Polytechnic School          *
* USP - S=E3o Paulo             *
*******************************

Re: hello...and MS-FF2...

[Johann D. <jo...@Do...>]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Rodrigo Damazio wrote:

> Bj|rn Augustsson wrote:
> 
> >Quoting Rodrigo Damazio <cu...@uo...>:
> [...]
>         Regarding the HID-specific stuff which isn't supported through 
> the event API, such as binding physical units, how about using a 
> "/dev/usb/hidsomething" device which could control this?? I guess this 
> is more generic than creating it on the "jsx" device because it applies 
> to many kinds of HIDs, not just joysticks...

The event API is not fixed, as far as I know. It would be better to use
this one. Indeed, we do not know for sure this is hid specific. 

> 
> >>I don't know how to interpret some of the hex 
> >>data...I've realized some things, for example a phase that starts with 
> >>01 is to report buttons and axes, "02 32 00" is when you hold the 
> >>stick(there's a little sensor), "02 36 00" is when you release it, and 
> >>so on...
> >>
> >

Funny, this really looks like the I-Force protocol. May I have a copy of
your dumps ? According to Immersion, Microsoft uses its own software and
drivers, which Immersion knows nothing about. But maybe they actually use
the iforce protocol. I don't know. On the other hand, I notice that the
pid spec does not differe much from the iforce one.

> >Can you send me the dumps you have? That could really help me understand
> >some problems I'm having. I started from the other direction, from the 
> >spec down, instead of from the wires up.
> >
>         I have looked at the specs too, but at first sight they didn't 
> help much, mostly because I had never looked at USB in a low level...but 
> I'll look at them better tonight...does this joystick follow those specs 
> then? Or do we really have to guess how it works?
>         I'll send you some dumps by e-mail(so as not to clutter up the 
> mailing list)...do have Immersion Studio?? If not you should get it, 

Well, if you compress them, they should not be that big, should they ? At
least, please also send a copy to me.

> because my dumps are all done while using it(I set it to use the SFF2 
> through DirectInput)...then you can know what was happening during each 
> dump...
> 

-- 
Johann Deneux

Re: hello...and MS-FF2...

[Rodrigo D. <cu...@uo...>]

Johann Deneux wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Rodrigo Damazio wrote:
>
>>Bj|rn Augustsson wrote:
>>
>>>Quoting Rodrigo Damazio <cu...@uo...>:
>>>
>>[...]
>>        Regarding the HID-specific stuff which isn't supported through=20
>>the event API, such as binding physical units, how about using a=20
>>"/dev/usb/hidsomething" device which could control this?? I guess this=20
>>is more generic than creating it on the "jsx" device because it applies=
=20
>>to many kinds of HIDs, not just joysticks...
>>
>
>The event API is not fixed, as far as I know. It would be better to use
>this one. Indeed, we do not know for sure this is hid specific.=20
>
>>>>I don't know how to interpret some of the hex=20
>>>>data...I've realized some things, for example a phase that starts wit=
h=20
>>>>01 is to report buttons and axes, "02 32 00" is when you hold the=20
>>>>stick(there's a little sensor), "02 36 00" is when you release it, an=
d=20
>>>>so on...
>>>>
>
>Funny, this really looks like the I-Force protocol. May I have a copy of
>your dumps ? According to Immersion, Microsoft uses its own software and
>drivers, which Immersion knows nothing about. But maybe they actually us=
e
>the iforce protocol. I don't know. On the other hand, I notice that the
>pid spec does not differe much from the iforce one.
>
        Okay, today I looked deeper into the specs, and I found out it's=20
*partially* compliant...almost everything works according to the PID=20
specs, with a few exceptions..02(set envelope) has 7 bytes after it=20
instead of 6...06(Set ramp) has 3 bytes after it instead of 4...is this=20
the I-Force protocol?? I'm attaching some commented dumps to this message=
...

>>>Can you send me the dumps you have? That could really help me understa=
nd
>>>some problems I'm having. I started from the other direction, from the=
=20
>>>spec down, instead of from the wires up.
>>>
>>        I have looked at the specs too, but at first sight they didn't=20
>>help much, mostly because I had never looked at USB in a low level...bu=
t=20
>>I'll look at them better tonight...does this joystick follow those spec=
s=20
>>then? Or do we really have to guess how it works?
>>        I'll send you some dumps by e-mail(so as not to clutter up the=20
>>mailing list)...do have Immersion Studio?? If not you should get it,=20
>>
>
>Well, if you compress them, they should not be that big, should they ? A=
t
>least, please also send a copy to me.
>
        I'm sending a bzip2-ed copy here...if you want more dumps please=20
let me know(I didn't save most of my tests, I just looked at them on the=20
screen and guessed the meaning of bytes by changing parameters in=20
Immersion Studio...

Rodrigo

--=20
*******************************
* Rodrigo Damazio             *
* *************************** *
* cu...@uo...           *
* rod...@po... *
* ICQ: #3560450               *
* http://www.vros.com/cuddly/ *
* *************************** *
* Engenharia da Computa=E7=E3o    *
* Escola Polit=E9cnica          *
* USP - S=E3o Paulo             *
*******************************

Re: hello...and MS-FF2...

[Bj|rn A. <d3a...@dt...>]

Quoting Rodrigo Damazio <cu...@uo...>:
>         Okay, today I looked deeper into the specs, and I found out it's 
> *partially* compliant...almost everything works according to the PID 
> specs, with a few exceptions..02(set envelope) has 7 bytes after it 
> instead of 6...06(Set ramp) has 3 bytes after it instead of 4...is this 
> the I-Force protocol?? I'm attaching some commented dumps to this message...

No, this is OK data. The joystick uses the "Device managed" sceme for
memory management. Read sections 5.11 and 9 of the PID spec and 
you'll see.

Set envelope:
	Effect block index	8
	Attack level		8
	Fade level		8
	Attack time		16
	Fade time		16
Set Ramp:
	Effect block index	8 
	start ramp		8
	end ramp		8

>         I'm sending a bzip2-ed copy here...if you want more dumps please 
> let me know(I didn't save most of my tests, I just looked at them on the 
> screen and guessed the meaning of bytes by changing parameters in 
> Immersion Studio...

Thanks a lot for this data! As I said,it's really refreshing seeing 
this stuff "from the other side". 

/August.
-- 
Wrong on most accounts.  const Foo *foo; and Foo const *foo; mean the same: foo
being a pointer to const Foo.  const Foo const *foo; would mean the same but is
illegal (double const).  You are confusing this with Foo * const foo; and const
Foo * const foo; respectively. -David Kastrup, comp.os.linux.development.system