linuxconsole-dev

Re: [Xorg] Local Multi Users

[Svetoslav S. <sv...@gm...>]

> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> My problem isn't with the keyboard division nor with the keyboards' leds
> nor with anything else.
> 
> Everything works almost perfectly **EXCEPT** that it's soooooo unstable.
> 
> I observed that there is a correct order to load the video cards and
> when that order is found, it all works okay until I turn off the
> computer. 
> 
> This looks like a videogame problem... each time I turn my computer on I
> need to guess the correct order for the video cards to load... this is
> insane.

hm,
gdm uses the predefined order(kdm/xdm do not)
once you find the proper order of cards
and configure gdm, everything should be fine
i & at least 20-30 persons i helped, never had
stability issues(after everything was configured)

best,

svetljo

PS. i left the older PS. for a reason :-)
> > PS.
> > please CC me (and the linuxconsole ml)
> > as me(we) are not subscribed to the list
> > 


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Re: [Xorg] Local Multi Users

[Helge H. <hel...@hi...>]

Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote:

>>Thanks for your reply.
>>
>>My problem isn't with the keyboard division nor with the keyboards' leds
>>nor with anything else.
>>
>>Everything works almost perfectly **EXCEPT** that it's soooooo unstable.
>>
>>I observed that there is a correct order to load the video cards and
>>when that order is found, it all works okay until I turn off the
>>computer. 
>>
>>This looks like a videogame problem... each time I turn my computer on I
>>need to guess the correct order for the video cards to load... this is
>>insane.
>>    
>>
>
>hm,
>gdm uses the predefined order(kdm/xdm do not)
>once you find the proper order of cards
>and configure gdm, everything should be fine
>i & at least 20-30 persons i helped, never had
>stability issues(after everything was configured)
>
>  
>

Having to use an "order" is no good.  People on a multi-user
machine logs in and out on the different consoles all the time, and X
obviously restarts everytime.  Gdm might be capable of starting the initial
login sessions in the "right" order, but then two users logs in, the one
with the card that must be loaded "first" then logs out and someone else
logs in - restarting X on that card "last".

Am I misunderstanding something, or do people really log in once
and keep that card forever until reboot?  That does not work well with
children who want to have their own user .  . .

I have avoided this problem so far, by using a single card with
two framebuffers.  That will change as I try to get DRI on two
cards :-/

Helge Hafting

Re: [Xorg] Local Multi Users

[Svetoslav S. <sv...@gm...>]

> Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote:
> 
> >>Thanks for your reply.
> >>
> >>My problem isn't with the keyboard division nor with the keyboards' leds
> >>nor with anything else.
> >>
> >>Everything works almost perfectly **EXCEPT** that it's soooooo unstable.
> >>
> >>I observed that there is a correct order to load the video cards and
> >>when that order is found, it all works okay until I turn off the
> >>computer. 
> >>
> >>This looks like a videogame problem... each time I turn my computer on I
> >>need to guess the correct order for the video cards to load... this is
> >>insane.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >hm,
> >gdm uses the predefined order(kdm/xdm do not)
> >once you find the proper order of cards
> >and configure gdm, everything should be fine
> >i & at least 20-30 persons i helped, never had
> >stability issues(after everything was configured)
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> Having to use an "order" is no good.  People on a multi-user
> machine logs in and out on the different consoles all the time, and X
> obviously restarts everytime. 

does X restarts really ? :-)
<snip from my gdm conf>
# If you are having trouble with using a single server for a long time and
# want gdm to kill/restart the server, turn this on
#AlwaysRestartServer=false
</snip>

> Gdm might be capable of starting the initial
> login sessions in the "right" order, but then two users logs in, the one
> with the card that must be loaded "first" then logs out and someone else
> logs in - restarting X on that card "last".

IIRC gdm follows the order in which the servers are specified 
in it's config file
on start : 1,2,3,.....
on shutdown : ...,3,2,1

IMO user logins/logouts doesn't metter 

> Am I misunderstanding something, or do people really log in once
> and keep that card forever until reboot? 
> That does not work well with
> children who want to have their own user .  . .

well i simulated the "children" problem a while ago
(i think when i was writing the howto)without any issues
patched XFree/Xorg + gdm shouldn't exhibit problems
but "videohack" and/or xdm/kdm might have the problem

> I have avoided this problem so far, by using a single card with
> two framebuffers.  That will change as I try to get DRI on two
> cards :-/

as said , i've no problems with DRI + Nvidia on
two PC's 
radeon7500 + geforce4 
matrox g550 + TNT2 M64

best,

svetljo

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Re: [Xorg] Local Multi Users

[Alexandre <ate...@in...>]

Svetoslav:

Thank you for your response. But I'm not sure I expressed myself
clearly. My problem is quite strange and understanding it well is
necessary for anyone to help us.

The problem is that we need to make four monitors work with one desktop.
Okay, but we only achieved this using three. Using four is hard.

First let me comment a little bit on the past emails:

On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 06:13, Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote:

> > Having to use an "order" is no good.  People on a multi-user
> > machine logs in and out on the different consoles all the time, and X
> > obviously restarts everytime. 
> 
> does X restarts really ? :-)
> <snip from my gdm conf>
> # If you are having trouble with using a single server for a long time and
> # want gdm to kill/restart the server, turn this on
> #AlwaysRestartServer=false
> </snip>
> 

Well, we already did that a few days ago and that's what made our three
monitor configuration work 101% perfectly :)


> > Gdm might be capable of starting the initial
> > login sessions in the "right" order, but then two users logs in, the one
> > with the card that must be loaded "first" then logs out and someone else
> > logs in - restarting X on that card "last".
> 
> IIRC gdm follows the order in which the servers are specified 
> in it's config file
> on start : 1,2,3,.....
> on shutdown : ...,3,2,1
> 
> IMO user logins/logouts doesn't metter 
> 

As a matter of fact the logins/logouts do *NOT* matter. Once loaded they
will reamin loaded untill the next reboot.

There is something really interesting here. When we log on with three
monitors any user can logout and X won't shutdown (as we intended). 

However, with four monitors the order in gdm's session list is getting
strange... 

Since this is not a simple problem I will try to simulate a little of
what's going on here. Please try to understand this simulation:

=> I try load gdm in an given order wich I configure in gdm.conf
   (for example, let's imagine X0, X1, X2, X3 for our example).

   Now gdm is trying to bring X0 up.... SUCCESS!!
   Now gdm is trying to bring X1 up.... SUCCESS!!
   Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... FAILED.
   But magically the X0 monitor _and_ X2 are frozen-up!!
   Also X3 is not loaded, since we didn't get there.

   Now I do a "kill <gdm and his childs AND the X server>".
   Now X0, X1, X2, X3 and the X server are dead.

=> Now I edit my gdm.conf and try (X2, X0, X1, X3). Let's try it...

   Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... SUCCESS!!
   Now gdm is trying to bring X0 up.... SUCCESS!!
   Now gdm is trying to bring X1 up.... SUCCESS!!
   Now gdm is trying to bring X3 up.... SUCCESS!!
   Everything works now!! I am lucky!
   Users may login and logout and everything works alright!!

=> Now, I'm in heaven. I am kind of the hill... so now I am going to
reboot and load everything again.

=> So now I edit gdm.conf and I left the default order of initialization
to (X2, X0, X1, X3). Since it worked once it should work again, right??

   Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... FAILED.
   And the machine is _completely_ halted... even my keyboard leds.


I hope I illustrated my problem better. Please help if you know any kind
of aid for this problem.

Just remembering, we have tried lots of different video cards and
motherboards along with memories and processor... that's the definition
of desperate!

Thank you very very much,
Alexandre Penasso Teixeira

Re: [Xorg] Local Multi Users

[Svetoslav S. <sv...@gm...>]

> Svetoslav:
> 
> Thank you for your response. But I'm not sure I expressed myself
> clearly. My problem is quite strange and understanding it well is
> necessary for anyone to help us.
> 
> The problem is that we need to make four monitors work with one desktop.
> Okay, but we only achieved this using three. Using four is hard.
> 
> First let me comment a little bit on the past emails:
> 
> On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 06:13, Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote:
> 
> > > Having to use an "order" is no good.  People on a multi-user
> > > machine logs in and out on the different consoles all the time, and X
> > > obviously restarts everytime. 
> > 
> > does X restarts really ? :-)
> > <snip from my gdm conf>
> > # If you are having trouble with using a single server for a long time
> and
> > # want gdm to kill/restart the server, turn this on
> > #AlwaysRestartServer=false
> > </snip>
> > 
> 
> Well, we already did that a few days ago and that's what made our three
> monitor configuration work 101% perfectly :)
> 
> 
> > > Gdm might be capable of starting the initial
> > > login sessions in the "right" order, but then two users logs in, the
> one
> > > with the card that must be loaded "first" then logs out and someone
> else
> > > logs in - restarting X on that card "last".
> > 
> > IIRC gdm follows the order in which the servers are specified 
> > in it's config file
> > on start : 1,2,3,.....
> > on shutdown : ...,3,2,1
> > 
> > IMO user logins/logouts doesn't metter 
> > 
> 
> As a matter of fact the logins/logouts do *NOT* matter. Once loaded they
> will reamin loaded untill the next reboot.
> 
> There is something really interesting here. When we log on with three
> monitors any user can logout and X won't shutdown (as we intended). 
> 
> However, with four monitors the order in gdm's session list is getting
> strange... 
> 
> Since this is not a simple problem I will try to simulate a little of
> what's going on here. Please try to understand this simulation:
> 
> => I try load gdm in an given order wich I configure in gdm.conf
>    (for example, let's imagine X0, X1, X2, X3 for our example).
> 
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X0 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X1 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... FAILED.
>    But magically the X0 monitor _and_ X2 are frozen-up!!
>    Also X3 is not loaded, since we didn't get there.
> 
>    Now I do a "kill <gdm and his childs AND the X server>".
>    Now X0, X1, X2, X3 and the X server are dead.

what is the reason for the failers ?
for a year(maybe year and a half) i got only 1 time
problem to boot the bios of the card

if you have the same problem, i'd suggest to configure 
Xinerama as  James van Zeeland sugested, and run X -probeonly
with the Xinerama layout before starting gdm
Aivils the main developer of bruby and ruby,
is using such a setup with 3 Nvidia cards
 
one other thing, 
i don't really understand why should a failer in one server
block all previous ones
IMO on ruby if the system is running (i.e. not tottaly locked),
the other X server should still function properly

> => Now I edit my gdm.conf and try (X2, X0, X1, X3). Let's try it...
> 
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X0 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X1 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X3 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Everything works now!! I am lucky!
>    Users may login and logout and everything works alright!!
> 
> => Now, I'm in heaven. I am kind of the hill... so now I am going to
> reboot and load everything again.
>
>
> => So now I edit gdm.conf and I left the default order of initialization
> to (X2, X0, X1, X3). Since it worked once it should work again, right??
> 
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... FAILED.
>    And the machine is _completely_ halted... even my keyboard leds.

have you changed the primary card(the one initialized by BIOS)
to the one used by X2, IIRC with Miguels Solution
there is a big fat warning that a dumb(no VT/console) 
X server can not be the primary one 

> 
> I hope I illustrated my problem better. Please help if you know any kind
> of aid for this problem.

well, i'm afraid that i have no other ideas then 
initializing the cards via X -probeonly before starting gdm

maybe some more info on the X errors, X configs and the hardware used could
help us track it down 

> Just remembering, we have tried lots of different video cards and
> motherboards along with memories and processor... that's the definition
> of desperate!

i really doubt that hardware (except Graphic cards)
matters, so far it runs stable with a lot of PCI cards

what graphic cards are you using ?
have you checked the compatibility list ?

best,

svetljo

PS.
Aivils site seems to be down right now,
but there are some mirrors
US:
http://people.debian.org/~andreas/aivils/
Germany:
http://www.schuldei.org/aivils/
http://rfhs8012.fh-regensburg.de/~sls35340/aivils/
UK:
http://karlovo.demon.co.uk/~svetlio/aivils/

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"Sie haben neue Mails!" - Die GMX Toolbar informiert Sie beim Surfen!
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Re: [Xorg] Local Multi Users

[Aivils <ai...@un...>]

On Saturday 26 June 2004 00:27, Alexandre wrote:
> > > Having to use an "order" is no good.  People on a multi-user
> > > machine logs in and out on the different consoles all the time, and X
> > > obviously restarts everytime. 
> > 
> > does X restarts really ? :-)
> > <snip from my gdm conf>
> > # If you are having trouble with using a single server for a long time and
> > # want gdm to kill/restart the server, turn this on
> > #AlwaysRestartServer=false
> > </snip>

I allways bypass restart of xf86. I use "AlwaysRestartServer=false"
So i keep "order". That is possible Nvidia driver issues.

> > > Gdm might be capable of starting the initial
> > > login sessions in the "right" order, but then two users logs in, the one
> > > with the card that must be loaded "first" then logs out and someone else
> > > logs in - restarting X on that card "last".
> > 
> > IIRC gdm follows the order in which the servers are specified 
> > in it's config file
> > on start : 1,2,3,.....
> > on shutdown : ...,3,2,1
> > 
> > IMO user logins/logouts doesn't metter 
> > 
> 
> As a matter of fact the logins/logouts do *NOT* matter. Once loaded they
> will reamin loaded untill the next reboot.
> 
> There is something really interesting here. When we log on with three
> monitors any user can logout and X won't shutdown (as we intended). 
> 
> However, with four monitors the order in gdm's session list is getting
> strange... 
> 
> Since this is not a simple problem I will try to simulate a little of
> what's going on here. Please try to understand this simulation:
> 
> => I try load gdm in an given order wich I configure in gdm.conf
>    (for example, let's imagine X0, X1, X2, X3 for our example).
> 
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X0 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X1 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... FAILED.
>    But magically the X0 monitor _and_ X2 are frozen-up!!
>    Also X3 is not loaded, since we didn't get there.
> 
>    Now I do a "kill <gdm and his childs AND the X server>".
>    Now X0, X1, X2, X3 and the X server are dead.
> 
> => Now I edit my gdm.conf and try (X2, X0, X1, X3). Let's try it...
> 
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X2 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X0 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X1 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Now gdm is trying to bring X3 up.... SUCCESS!!
>    Everything works now!! I am lucky!
>    Users may login and logout and everything works alright!!
> 
> => Now, I'm in heaven. I am kind of the hill... so now I am going to
> reboot and load everything again.

This suxcess story looks similar my.
Historical review.
TNT2(PCI) + TNT2(PCI)  all flawless , all xf86 are restartable.

GeForceMX440(AGP)+TNT2(PCI) + TNT2(PCI)
xf86 on AGP restart works nearly 90%

GeForceMX440(AGP)+GeForceFX5200(PCI) + TNT2(PCI)
system becames totaly capricious. restart of xf86 works nearly 50%.
nvidia.o wrote in dmesg

nvidia: rm_init_adapter() failed

That adpater will work only after reboot. Any kernel reinstall
make Nvidia driver unexcpected. I try various "order" "-probeonly"
and so on. All tests under 2.4.XX serie, nvidia driver versions
are forgotten. I just use latest nvidia closed source driver.
It works allways.

What does "X -probeonly"?

If You use -isolateDevice (-prefbusid), then xf86 can see only
one video adapter, which is allowed by Your commandline.
Some specific drivers (Nvidia) for good start must have
all adapters available, because have only one kernel module.
Kernel module may not do proper initialisation of all adapters,
if xf86 will not call all adapters, because some adapters are
hidden by commandline of xf86.
"X -probeonly" during initialisation call all adapters. Kernel
module keep all adapters in working state. Later restart of separate
xf86 will work nice.
This is my work hypothesis.

What does "order"?

%-( Truth is out of here

Aivils Stoss

Re: [Xorg] Local Multi Users

[James v. Z. <ja...@dv...>]

Works perfectly for me, once it's configured. uptime 7 days or so on
this workstation, no X crashes. Sure getting 4 seperate video cards up
might be tricky, but I've found your mainboard might have something to
do with it, as I found an Intel P4 Desktop board almost totally
incompatible.

MSI + Gigabyte, thumbs up so far, Intel Workstation and Server class
hardware might be another matter, but I don't trust the Intel Desktop
boards to be fully compatible outside of fairly generic configurations.

Trying out some things like starting 2003 server under VMware and
dedicating a console to it on  my Linux server. ( It's work ) 

Most of the problems I've had were basically the same as multi-head X.

The apparent initialisation inconsistency is solved for me by having an
Xinemera config that is probed before the X server. In short, if it
works for Xinimera, I'm expecting it to work with multi-console ruby,
because although at first I found the initialisation a speedbump ( I
only did a quick skim of docs), that's basically where it's at for me. I
haven't tried using bunches of different cards, but I found that when
using different cards, I had the same problems as I did with Xinimera.


J


On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 06:17, Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote:
> > Thanks for your reply.
> > 
> > My problem isn't with the keyboard division nor with the keyboards' leds
> > nor with anything else.
> > 
> > Everything works almost perfectly **EXCEPT** that it's soooooo unstable.
> > 
> > I observed that there is a correct order to load the video cards and
> > when that order is found, it all works okay until I turn off the
> > computer. 
> > 
> > This looks like a videogame problem... each time I turn my computer on I
> > need to guess the correct order for the video cards to load... this is
> > insane.
> 
> hm,
> gdm uses the predefined order(kdm/xdm do not)
> once you find the proper order of cards
> and configure gdm, everything should be fine
> i & at least 20-30 persons i helped, never had
> stability issues(after everything was configured)
> 
> best,
> 
> svetljo
> 
> PS. i left the older PS. for a reason :-)
> > > PS.
> > > please CC me (and the linuxconsole ml)
> > > as me(we) are not subscribed to the list
> > > 
>