Thread: Re: [LIH] Re: Linux for desktop ??
Linux India has been formed for Foster the growth of Linux in India
Brought to you by:
manojmishra,
raju
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-29 19:10:11
|
>> Redmond Linux? Is that a joke like Microsoft Linux? As for elx > > No, no joke. A redmond based company is packaging linux. I believe > they've renamed it to LX. They have two products out, I forget the name > of the second. Good they didn't name it XL ;-) Its some distro based on Mandrake I think. ~Mayuresh |
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 07:03:53
|
> > +++ Mayuresh Kathe [linux-india] <30/01/02 00:39 +0530>: >> 4. A next generation UI, look at all those Window Managers, they are >> all wannabes of some old UI paradigm. > > What, in your opinion, would be a new UI paradigm? A 3-D world? Most of the > desktop environments around (kde and gnome are not just 'window managers') > are going the same old MacOS / Doze route. Because it is what the herd > wants, and is most familiar with. A 3D world would be most uncomfortable in a 2D interface, infact it would be the worst thing anybody could ever do. Yes, it would be great if the world is accompanied with VR peripherals. > Window managers? Try twm, fvwm, blackbox, xfce etc. That's all they do. > Help you open and manage multiple windows. Thats the whole point, thats "All" they do, they let you open and manage multiple windows. I fail to understand, that given the tremendous support most of those Desktop environments have, why can't they make something very solid, take for example the case of KDE-3, they introduced the scripting thing (which is very similar to AppleScript) but failed to incorporate DCF support. Now that AppleScript itself has DCF support, I guess by the time KDE-4 is launched, DCF support would be there too. Why can't the OpenSource community "innovate"? Why do they always have to play catch? Why do they have to be followers and never leaders setting an example for the closed world guys to follow? > They don't try, or want to be, desktop environments, with the mail client > integrated with the browser, which is integrated with the desktop and ... Desktop environments don't dictate that all the components should be integrated with each other, they just dicatate that they should follow a standard UI policy, and prefer to have the apps inter-operable. > And frankly, I am not comfortable with the branding "linux for the desktop". Me too, I guess that was started by the "Emperor" Mr. Atul Chitnis, isn't it? > Distros are for desktops. Distros are for servers. Distros are for > workstations (somewhere between a desktop and a server). Distros are also for Embedded devices :) ~Mayuresh |
From: Suresh R. <ma...@ef...> - 2002-01-30 07:10:46
|
+++ Mayuresh Kathe [linux-india] <30/01/02 12:33 +0530>: > Me too, I guess that was started by the "Emperor" Mr. Atul Chitnis, > isn't it? To be fair, that's not Atul's idea or anything - though he does advocate the idea quite a bit. That's been floating around several newsgroups / linux magazines etc for several months. I do believe PCQ bringing out an issue dedicated to linux on the desktop (and a couple of linuxtoday articles etc) kind of started that long thread which quickly became a flamewar ... > > Distros are for desktops. Distros are for servers. Distros are for > > workstations (somewhere between a desktop and a server). > Distros are also for Embedded devices :) ... and for coke vending machines as I posted yesterday on LIG ... -srs -- Suresh Ramasubramanian <----> mallet <at> efn dot org EMail Sturmbannfuhrer, Lower Middle Class Unix Sysadmin [Linux One Stanza Tip] From : <ge...@is...> LOST #198 -**< Sub : Erasing at the command prompt >**- To erase a line you've written at the command prompt, use: "Ctrl u" |
From: Shridhar D. <shr...@pe...> - 2002-01-30 07:55:21
|
On 30 Jan 2002 at 12:33, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > I fail to understand, that given the tremendous support most of those > Desktop environments have, why can't they make something very solid, > take for example the case of KDE-3, they introduced the scripting > thing (which is very similar to AppleScript) but failed to incorporate > DCF support. What's that? But it supports DCOP scripting. And I thought if you need scripting use shell scripts. Why script a GUI thing? > Why can't the OpenSource community "innovate"? Oops.. I thought it's the other way round.. > Desktop environments don't dictate that all the components should be > integrated with each other, they just dicatate that they should follow > a standard UI policy, and prefer to have the apps inter-operable. Certainly you are misinterpreting the thing. If you say X don't allow a standard UI policy, I think we need to discuss what's policy? Do you mean a single GUI API routed thr. single set of dlls. I wouldn't consider that as policy. X does policy and that's the beauty of it... > Me too, I guess that was started by the "Emperor" Mr. Atul Chitnis, > isn't it? No. There are far too many people to start with who wants a system that works. My advice. The catch with linux is that it's just different. Don't put any labels and compare it with oranges and apples. Learn the way it works and I am sure you will appreciate it.. I usually don't follow-up two posts for single thread but couldn't help it this time.. Shridhar |
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 09:54:18
|
>> thing (which is very similar to AppleScript) but failed to incorporate >> DCF support. > What's that? But it supports DCOP scripting. And I thought if you need > scripting use shell scripts. Why script a GUI thing? AppleScript - It is a scripting language which allows you to automate a series of tasks on a Macintosh DCF - Distributed Computing Framework. Things like CORBA, OpenDOC, DCOM, etc... >> Why can't the OpenSource community "innovate"? > Oops.. I thought it's the other way round.. I might be wrong in the next sentence, but could you show me one instance of innovation by the OpenSource community? Something which is really path-breaking? What I have observed over years is that, closed products come out with some of the best designed and implemented stuff, then the OpenSource community comes out with an version which is seemingly better implemented than the original thing. >> Desktop environments don't dictate that all the components should be >> integrated with each other, they just dicatate that they should follow >> a standard UI policy, and prefer to have the apps inter-operable. > > Certainly you are misinterpreting the thing. If you say X don't allow a > standard UI policy, I think we need to discuss what's policy? Do you mean a > single GUI API routed thr. single set of dlls. I wouldn't consider that as > policy. You aren't getting the point, X is just set of protocols to handle graphics, to make X really usable, you need to have Window Managers, to make it programmable you need to have widget sets (Linux has a whole lot of them). And then there will be disparate programmers using disparate widget sets which ultimately do not interoperate. > My advice. The catch with linux is that it's just different. Don't put any > labels and compare it with oranges and apples. Learn the way it works and I > am sure you will appreciate it.. Well, again you talk without proper study or understanding of the issues. A user should _not_ have to learn a way a system works, but rather, a system has to be designed such that a user doesn't have to put in a lot of efforts to learn it. And my advise is the catch with Linux is that, well, just that it does have a "catch"... > I usually don't follow-up two posts for single thread but couldn't help it > this time.. Thanks for the effort. ~Mayuresh |
From: Kingsly J. <kin...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 10:56:58
|
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: |I might be wrong in the next sentence, but could you show me one |instance of innovation by the OpenSource community? |Something which is really path-breaking? Apache, PHP , Perl ... They don't fall in the desktop category though. |What I have observed over years is that, closed products come out with |some of the best designed and implemented stuff, then the OpenSource |community comes out with an version which is seemingly better |implemented than the original thing. This is because until the internet explosion interaction amongst the developers was not all that easy. The OpenSource boom is just beginning... we now have Linux , Mozilla , OpenOffice etc which are applications which people never thought could be done by volunteers... Don't compare KDE and Gnome which are a few years old ... to an offering from M$FT or Apple .. which have been in the business for ages... and spent billions of dollars on R&D ... and learnt from their mistakes. Compare KDE 3.x with Windows 3.x .. and you'll realise that the KDE development effort is probably way ahead. You and I would probably never know about the number of top secret internal projects that would have been scapped because it wasn't good enough.. whereas in the open source environment even the worst efforts and biggest blunders will be made public... and people will get to use them. Kingsly |
From: Binand R. S. <bi...@cy...> - 2002-01-30 11:27:20
|
begin quote from Kingsly John's mail: > On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > |I might be wrong in the next sentence, but could you show me one > |instance of innovation by the OpenSource community? > |Something which is really path-breaking? > > Apache, PHP , Perl ... > > They don't fall in the desktop category though. Two of the most used software on my linux desktop are enough to refute the OP's claims: http://www.globecom.se/tora Falls in the workstation category, though. I haven't seen anything like that for Windows. Really a path breaking application. Go to that website and read the user comments. Mind you, I am a relative newcomer to the field of databases, and tora's been a great help. http://www.konqueror.org An innovative desktop application. So many usability features started first with konqueror, I guess. The split window feature, site/domain based cookie and javascript control, terminal emulator within the browser, web shortcuts, full blown usage of favicon.ico... > Compare KDE 3.x with Windows 3.x .. and you'll realise that the KDE > development effort is probably way ahead. You don't need to - kde 2.2.2 is enough. Anyone who says Linux is not ready for the desktop is full of faeces, of course. Just because a a few websites are designed for IE 5.5 or a few online pr0n/gaming sites have only windows versions of downloadable software doesn't mean that one cannot use Linux on the desktop. Binand |
From: Kingsly J. <kin...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 11:42:00
|
| |Anyone who says Linux is not ready for the desktop is full of faeces, of |course. Just because a a few websites are designed for IE 5.5 or a few |online pr0n/gaming sites have only windows versions of downloadable |software doesn't mean that one cannot use Linux on the desktop. Speaking of which... wine has really matured a lot over the past few months... I was able to run Netscape 6.0 RealPlayer 7.0 Windows Commander 5.0 http://kingsly.free.fr/screenie/wincmd-real.png (All this without any help from the folks at Redmond,WA) So chances are even if there is only a windows version available... you might be able to run in under linux! Kingsly |
From: Shridhar D. <shr...@pe...> - 2002-01-30 12:31:51
|
On 30 Jan 2002 at 17:14, Kingsly John wrote: > Speaking of which... wine has really matured a lot over the past few > months... I was able to run Does it work on NTFS now? Last I checked it needed writable drives which is a reasonable demand. But unfortuantely I can't provide that.. Shridhar |
From: Kingsly J. <kin...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 12:58:27
|
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: |On 30 Jan 2002 at 17:14, Kingsly John wrote: |> Speaking of which... wine has really matured a lot over the past few |> months... I was able to run | |Does it work on NTFS now? Last I checked it needed writable drives |which is a reasonable demand. But unfortuantely I can't provide that.. Why would you need NTFS ?? it runs on ext2/3/reiser etc... wine runs those apps without a windows installation .. 100% open source environment which can run win32 binaries. Kingsly |
From: Shridhar D. <shr...@pe...> - 2002-01-30 13:17:41
|
On 30 Jan 2002 at 18:30, Kingsly John wrote: > Why would you need NTFS ?? it runs on ext2/3/reiser etc... > wine runs those apps without a windows installation .. 100% open source > environment which can run win32 binaries. Oh. OK. Then I will try it at home. have a lukeworm 95 installation for few old dos apps.. Unfortunately don't have enough space on work machine. Just have 500MB free. And I would rather devote them for linux. Shridhar |
From: Kingsly J. <kin...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 14:08:09
|
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: |Oh. OK. Then I will try it at home. have a lukeworm 95 installation |for few old dos apps.. | |Unfortunately don't have enough space on work machine. Just have 500MB free. |And I would rather devote them for linux. [kingsly@utopia kingsly]$ du -sb fake_windows/ 125011968 fake_windows [kingsly@utopia kingsly]$ includes netscape 6,.. RealPlayer 7, Word97 viewer , Excel 97 viewer and a few other small apps. Wine rpm is 5.5MB download. Compare this with a 200MB windows base install! Kingsly |
From: Shridhar D. <shr...@pe...> - 2002-01-30 12:18:39
|
On 30 Jan 2002 at 16:48, Binand Raj S. wrote: > Two of the most used software on my linux desktop are enough to refute > the OP's claims: > > http://www.globecom.se/tora > > Falls in the workstation category, though. I haven't seen anything like > that for Windows. Really a path breaking application. Go to that website > and read the user comments. Mind you, I am a relative newcomer to the > field of databases, and tora's been a great help. I think this is parallel for toad. See http://www.quest.com/toad/. It's not a free product. I use licensed version of it and it's quite great. But nothing that you can't live without on sqlplus prompt. Shridhar |
From: Prasad P. <pra...@ya...> - 2002-01-31 08:09:54
|
Hi, Few days back there was LOST tip regarding time on console and there is programme vcstime.I downloaded the sources and compiled them and then installed.It instaaled executable vcstime in /usr/local/bin directory( as per Makefile supplied). If I type ./vcstime & I get the time in the right hand upper corner on a console in Slack 8 but not in RedHat as I followed the same process of building vcstime from sources in PCQRedHat. In PCQRH7.1 I do not get any error but there is no process running called vcstime when I do ps -ax . It means the programme is terminating. Can anybody explain me why? Regards, Prasad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com |
From: anirudh s. <ani...@so...> - 2002-01-31 08:59:28
|
i tried it and got correct result try ps -A ----- Original Message ----- From: Prasad Paranjape <pra...@ya...> To: <lin...@li...> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: [LIH] vcstime problem > Hi, > > Few days back there was LOST tip regarding time on > console and there is programme vcstime.I downloaded > the sources and compiled them and then installed.It > instaaled executable vcstime in /usr/local/bin > directory( as per Makefile supplied). > > If I type ./vcstime & I get the time in the right hand > upper corner on a console in Slack 8 but not in RedHat > as I followed the same process of building vcstime > from sources in PCQRedHat. > In PCQRH7.1 I do not get any error but there is no > process running called vcstime when I do ps -ax . > > It means the programme is terminating. > Can anybody explain me why? > > Regards, > > Prasad > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! > http://auctions.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > linux-india-help mailing list > lin...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-india-help |
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 09:54:21
|
>> Me too, I guess that was started by the "Emperor" Mr. Atul Chitnis, >> isn't it? > To be fair, that's not Atul's idea or anything - though he does advocate the > idea quite a bit. That's been floating around several newsgroups / linux > magazines etc for several months. Oh, you mean, Atul just hooked on to that idea and tried to beat the drum all around the place? God, and he was telling me about what he did 24 months back ;-) > I do believe PCQ bringing out an issue dedicated to linux on the desktop (and > a couple of linuxtoday articles etc) kind of started that long thread which > quickly became a flamewar ... Ya ya, I remember, "Long long ago, on a list far far away..." ;-) > ... and for coke vending machines as I posted yesterday on LIG ... :-P |
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 12:09:14
|
I guess it would be wise to move this thread to LIG, would the next poster in the thread post to LIG please? > Don't compare KDE and Gnome which are a few years old ... to an offering > from M$FT or Apple .. which have been in the business for ages... and > spent billions of dollars on R&D ... and learnt from their mistakes. Why aren't _we_ learning from _their_ mistakes? Take for example the IndyOE guys ;^) Just check out how simple they have made the things out there... > Compare KDE 3.x with Windows 3.x .. and you'll realise that the KDE > development effort is probably way ahead. winDOZE 3.x was a pathetic product. Try and compare KDE 3.x with Mac OS System 3 and you would still feel that KDE lags far behind. > You and I would probably never know about the number of top secret > internal projects that would have been scapped because it wasn't good > enough.. whereas in the open source environment even the worst efforts and > biggest blunders will be made public... and people will get to use them. Well put... ~Mayuresh |
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 14:08:03
|
"Binand Raj S." <bi...@cy...> wrote: > You don't need to - kde 2.2.2 is enough. > > Anyone who says Linux is not ready for the desktop is full of faeces, of > course. Just because a a few websites are designed for IE 5.5 or a few > online pr0n/gaming sites have only windows versions of downloadable > software doesn't mean that one cannot use Linux on the desktop. Well, I guess, you aren't in your senses if you say Linux is ready for prime time for the desktop. I would advise you to check up systems other than winDOZE before commenting. Know what, I just realised, when ever anyone starts a discussion regarding "Linux on the Desktop" people jump out to compare it with the stupidest implementation of the desktop paradigm i.e. winDOZE. Hope people would check out ease of use provided by other systems. Lets suppose, all you might not have access to a Macintosh, but you can always go ahead and check out BeOS, even that is a wonderful product. Warm Regards, ~Mayuresh |
From: Suresh R. <ma...@ef...> - 2002-01-30 14:25:15
|
[reply-to LIG set ... please do reply to LIG even if the list software overwrites this] +++ Mayuresh Kathe [linux-india] <30/01/02 19:37 +0530>: > Know what, I just realised, when ever anyone starts a discussion > regarding "Linux on the Desktop" people jump out to compare it with > the stupidest implementation of the desktop paradigm i.e. winDOZE. Because Bill Gates (and Linus, and $linux_distro_maker) had enough brains to either [1] Stick to intel (and generic) chips which are so damn popular and cheap [2] Or, like linux, let it be ported to several different platforms, from mainframes to ordinary PCs. Hell, you can install linux (or OpenBSD) on a Mac ... Steve Jobs & Co have an excellent product in MacOS, and the [Motorola, isn't it?] processors used are great. However, he dug his own grave by stubbornly keeping Macs on a single - expensive - architecture, and working actively to kill clones like BeOS. OK, the mac rocks. I'll be the first to admit it (though I really HATE that single button mouse, or the new circular mouse on iMacs ...) > Hope people would check out ease of use provided by other systems. > Lets suppose, all you might not have access to a Macintosh, but you > can always go ahead and check out BeOS, even that is a wonderful > product. _After_ Jobs and Co worked so hard to try suppress it ... if they'd tried licensing out their codebase at least (like AT&T Bell Labs did with unix, passing the code to Berkeley ...) it'd have been a great concept, and a great idea. Now, it is a great idea doomed to failure, along with all those platform-specific OSen around. Hell, even *Sun* kind of saw a glimmer of light, releasing Solaris for Intel (well, it sucks of course, but still, we manage to run a couple of heavily used fileservers for our LAN on them...) Right now, you are telling a guy who's trying to differentiate between hostel canteen dal-roti (doze) and vada pao on the beach (linux - far tastier, filling... and FUN) that he's missing out on a ten course dinner with champagne at the Taj, which the Mac is set on becoming. OK cool, a Mac can be used for just about anything (I know at least one guy who runs a largish ISP solely using Mac kit ...), and is not just for DTP and graphics designers ... but it is still a ten course dinner. Tasty - yes. Affordable, widely available and practical for _all_ varieties of daily use - no. Not at all. -srs -- Suresh Ramasubramanian <----> mallet <at> efn dot org EMail Sturmbannfuhrer, Lower Middle Class Unix Sysadmin [Linux One Stanza Tip] From : <bi...@nd...> LOST #067 -**< Sub : Listing partition >**- To know the total size of hard disk inclusive of Non-Linux and non-formatted partitions, as root do: #echo p | fdisk /dev/hdX 2> /dev/null (where X is a, b, c etc) OR #fdisk -l (this will list all drives together) |
From: Philip S T. <phi...@in...> - 2002-01-30 15:03:41
|
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > Know what, I just realised, when ever anyone starts a discussion > regarding "Linux on the Desktop" people jump out to compare it with > the stupidest implementation of the desktop paradigm i.e. winDOZE. Maybe the stupidest, but also the most widely used. The Mac is used by very few people - mainly designers. > can always go ahead and check out BeOS, even that is a wonderful which no longer exists. Be has closed down, and BeOS with it. compare this to open source projects that live on even after their companies close down, and don't just live, but stay in active development. -- Machines have less problems. I'd like to be a machine. -- Andy Warhol |
From: Suresh R. <ma...@ef...> - 2002-01-30 15:18:22
|
+++ Philip S Tellis [linux-india] <30/01/02 20:32 +0530>: > On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > > can always go ahead and check out BeOS, even that is a wonderful > > which no longer exists. Be has closed down, and BeOS with it. Because Apple deliberately strangled it and killed what could have injected fresh new blood. -- Suresh Ramasubramanian <----> mallet <at> efn dot org EMail Sturmbannfuhrer, Lower Middle Class Unix Sysadmin [Linux One Stanza Tip] From : <From : freebsd fortune> LOST #174 -**< Sub : xset goodies (#1) >**- If you do not want to get beeps in X11 (X Windows), you can turn them off with : xset b off |
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 15:17:04
|
Philip S Tellis <phi...@in...> wrote: >> Know what, I just realised, when ever anyone starts a discussion >> regarding "Linux on the Desktop" people jump out to compare it with >> the stupidest implementation of the desktop paradigm i.e. winDOZE. > > Maybe the stupidest, but also the most widely used. The Mac is used by > very few people - mainly designers. Wrong notions... There are 5 cockroaches for every human on this planet... Numbers always doesn't mean better... Macs are also used in most schools across the States, its the defacto computing system in Japan, most countries in Europe and ex-USSR. >> can always go ahead and check out BeOS, even that is a wonderful > > which no longer exists. Be has closed down, and BeOS with it. There are free downloads still available from Le Buzz. BTW, Be hasn't closed down, it got bought out by Palm, and they are launching their next offering based on StrongARM and BeIA. > compare this to open source projects that live on even after their > companies close down, and don't just live, but stay in active > development. But none of them are as stunning and mind-blowing as the BeOS. Dunno any open source products started by companies which have got shutdown yet the products living on... ~Mayuresh |
From: Kingsly J. <kin...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 15:53:44
|
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: |But none of them are as stunning and mind-blowing as the BeOS. |Dunno any open source products started by companies which have got |shutdown yet the products living on... Nautilus! Kingsly |
From: Mayuresh K. <may...@vs...> - 2002-01-30 18:16:13
|
On 1/30/02 9:05 PM, kin...@vs... wrote: > |But none of them are as stunning and mind-blowing as the BeOS. > |Dunno any open source products started by companies which have got > |shutdown yet the products living on... > > Nautilus! But that was such a resource hog... (and it was a rip off of the NeXT File Viewer) ~Mayuresh PS: And it was created by ex-Apple guys ;^) |
From: Mario M. da C. <ma...@co...> - 2002-01-31 09:29:17
|
> > Speaking of which... wine has really matured a lot over the past few > months... I was able to run > > Netscape 6.0 > RealPlayer 7.0 > Windows Commander 5.0 > > http://kingsly.free.fr/screenie/wincmd-real.png > > Kingsly > Hello Kingsly, very nice, sexy desktop. It looks like fvwm2, but i am not sure. could you please clarify ? how did you get the icons like that in the lower right corner of the screen ? i am really blown, mario |