Re: [Linux-fbdev-devel] The future of framebuffer

[Nick K. <nic...@ma...>]

Hello, Sven!
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:40:27 +0200, you wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 12:45:24PM +0400, Nick Kurshev wrote:
> > Hello, Sven!
> > On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:28:50 +0200, you wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 10:20:33AM +0400, Nick Kurshev wrote:
> > > > > Huh, why move all the fbdev out, the only thing you need to modularize is the
> > > > > fonts used, not the fbdev.
> > > > > 
> > > > Because it can be compiled independedly from kernel. Because it is like mini-X.
> > > > IMHO kernel should have only minimal part of drivers. (finely only set of drivers which
> > > > should be compiled into kernel for normal working) but such thing as framebuffer, audio
> > > > drivers and many other things could be safety moved from kernel out and be as satellite
> > > > projects.
> > > 
> > > Ah, but if you remove the fbdev from the kernel, many arches have no more
> > > console, in particular all those laking vga hardware.
> > > 
> > > Also you loose the hability to get the penguin logo at boot time, or any other
> > > graphic that is, which would be a shame.
> > > 
> > These things could be handled by vesafb which can't be compiled as module.
> > AFAIK VBE3.0 already have standardized such things as DGA, video extensions
> > and even audio interface. Althrough exist cards which don't support VESA
> > but such cards may not support graphics modes too.
> 
> Sure, but you aren't listening, you just plainly ignore all the non-i386
> hardware out there, as well as all the older vide ocards. And there are a lot
> of graphic cards that are supported but are not VESA 2.Ю or later compatible.
> 
> Also you plainly forget all those where VESA support is somewhat broken.
> 
> and if you use vesafb, you already have most of the fbdve infrastructure in
> anyway, so why not use decent drivers ?
> 
I'm sorry - I didn't know about non-x86 architectures.

> You problem here is only with the fonts, why not use modular fonts that can be
> loaded, or even fonts provided by a userland app ?
> 
Unfortunately - linux documentations lacks (or hides) such information.
Could you send me URL, please?

> > > Finally, removing many dirvers from the kernel and having them as external
> > > projects is only asking for problems, incompatibilities and bugs. It is not a
> > > nice thing to do. 
> > > 
> > There may be incompatibility but only if linux internal interface is changed
> > but independed projects will not depend on it. Except case when major version of
> 
> Sure, but this has not been the case in the past, so ...
> 
> > linux will changed but this situation is similar to having different drivers
> > for Win95 and Win2000.
> 
> And is the main reason for all those crashes you get in windows : badly
> written or plain incompatible drivers.
> 
Windows (NT series) have only badly written kernel which crashes too frequently ;)

> > In addition it will give possibility to update such drivers without updating
> > the kernel and vice versa.
> 
> I can already do that, Or do you think i need to rebuild the kernel each time
> i change a line in some fbdev driver code ?
> 
When I'd write a little Makefile for my tiny driver then I'd got such possibility too.
If you are developer therefore you have no such problems but many users use
only stable Linus kernels and they will never install even -pre.X kernel on their computers.
AFAIK - main problems of fbdev will be fixed only in 2.5 kernels (I hope not in 2.7;)
(I mean - at least correct unloading fbdev by 'rmmod fbdev' althrough it's meaningless on non-x86)
Thus mainstream of x86-users will wait until Linux-2.6 will be introduced.

> > > > > BTW, can't we generate the fonts from the ones used by vgacon ?
> > > > > 
> > > > As I've found that linux doesn't contain character images except framebuffer's font files.
> > > > But we can use fs/nls to convert DOS .cpi files to linux fonts. (Since on russian system
> > > > DOS uses 866 codepage but Linux koi8-r). But in this case linux package will large of
> > > > X package :( But IMHO it would be better th hove possibility to use dos.cpi files directly
> > > > from Linux with iconv functionallity.
> > > 
> > > Err, not sure i follow you here, but were are the dos.cpi info stored, in the
> > > vga card rom ? on the vfat filesystem ? in the bios ?
> > > 
> > On vfat. But IMHO each computer had preinstalled DOS as they have preinstalled Win9x now.
> 
> Sure, again, you are i386 centric, i doubt you will get WIn9x preinstalled on
> those sparc boxed, or maybe on some older m68k one, or ... ?
> 
> > Anyway exist FreeDOS and other similar systems where such files could be taken.
> 
> Sure, but there is surely a better solution available ?
> 
Yes - having of independedly downloadable fbdev modules and NLS font files.
> Friendly,
> 
> Sven Luther
> 


Best regards! Nick