Thread: [kln2-devel] re: do-re-mi
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From: Mo <Mo...@no...> - 2004-03-01 09:42:08
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> > In Poland we call C sharp "C#" or "cis". I don't really know how > > to extend "do-re-mi" system to accidented notes. Maybe this > > should be kept only for preliminary lessons, without > > accidentals, and not extended for features planned in future? The Do-Re-Mi method (Solfeggio) is great and has its place in musicianship. One will find this used in sight-singing of melodies without text. There are several methods of the Do systems: THE FIXED Do: Notes C,D,E,F,G,A and B are mapped to Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, and Ti. The name for each note is sung without any regards to accidentals. For example, in the G major key, Sol is G while F# is Fa. THE MOVEABLE Do: In this method, Do always represents the tonic or first degree of the scale, regardless of accidental. For example, in the G major key, Do is G while Ti is F#. The chromatic scale is as follows in this method: Ascending: Do Di Re Ri Mi Fa Fi Sol Si La Li Ti Do Descending Do Ti Te La Le Sol Se Fa Mi Me Re Ra Do Personally, I have learned the Movable Do system and that seems to be the predominant method here in the USA. Although I have had professors in the Universities that have used the Fixed Do method primarily. At the moment KLearnnotes2 is aimed at learning notes. We don't have to stop here however. Learning notes is very basic part of theroy. There has been discussion of including key signatures which is great. Learning chords and their different inversions would be nice as well. Even better yet, introducing tempo and sequence of notes would be awesome. Have the application plays very simple intervals of notes and the student would select the correct notes and place it on the clef. Later it could be extended into playing simple melodies with varying rhythm and tempo. Again here, the application will play a tune. The student then has to listen and then place the correct notes on the clef. The latter part is where the Solfegio system will help a student. Right now, learning notes does not require a sense of tonality, intervals, scales, or different keys. If we introduce intervals and keys, and extend it as I written above, the Solfeggio system would work nicely. Personally I have found the Moveable Do system easy to learn and it gives the student a sense of tonality. We should not however abandon the actual names of notes. If we decide to go in this direction, introducing melodies and rhythm, it will turn our application from learning music theory into a musicianship application. |
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From: Marek W. <Mar...@fu...> - 2004-03-02 00:27:15
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Hi e-body,
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:12:59 Fernando Cuenca wrote:
> > My suggestion would be adding it as a third option for
> > German/English notation (I guess "French notation" is an
> > adequate name for do-re-mi stuff).
>
> What about calling it "Italian" or "Latin"? According to the
> legend, the names come from:
>
> _Ut_ queant laxis (eventually became "do")
> _Re_sonare fibris
> _Mi_ra gestorum
> _Fa_muli tuorum
> _Sol_ve pulluti
> _La_bii reatum
> _S_ancte _J_ohannes (eventually became "si" or "ti")
Wow, I just wanted to learn about music, and now I am picking up
Latin... :)
After reading Mo's letter: I would stick to "Solfeggio" name for
this - it is probably less confusing. Or we may simply call this
"Do-Re-Mi notation".
> We could use "Ti" for "si", which is what English speakers use
> ("si" gets confused with "C"). In that case, all notes would
> have a unique letter:
>
> [d]o
> [r]e
> [m]i
> [f]a
> [s]ol
> [l]a
> [t]i
>
> I haven't looked at the code yet, but I would assume the
> keystrokes associated with each letter are kind of hard-coded
> now, aren't they? In that case, we also need to find a way of
> generalizing that.
First of all: they do change when you change notation from
English to German (the first one reacts on computer kbd key "B" the
other on "H"). And there is another kbd input way: you can press
number keys displayed above the buttons (3 for C, 4 for D and so
on). So they are not that 'hard' coded. ;)
> > How do you call these? E.g. what is C#? "Do sharp"? "Do with
> > a cross"?
>
> In English, it would be "Do sharp" or "Mi flat". In Spanish, "Do
> sostenido" or "Mi bemol".
>
> > Is it clear what "Do #" might mean?
>
> Yes. We use the "#" sign for sharps and "b" for flat,
> following the name (like "Do#" or "Mib").
>
> > how are chords like "C sharp major" called?
>
> In Spanish you use capital M for Mayor and lower case m for
> minor. Like in: "Do# Mayor" and "Mib minor". Also, if you
> don't mention the mode (like in just "Do#") it's assumed you
> are refering to the Major mode.
The reason I asked was that in Poland do-re-mi is
sometimes used but I have never ever seen it with any
accidental.
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 Mo wrote:
> Ascending:
> Do Di Re Ri Mi Fa Fi Sol Si La Li Ti Do
>
> Descending
> Do Ti Te La Le Sol Se Fa Mi Me Re Ra Do
[Sigh.] Fernadno's and Mo's letters are a bit contradictory. So
"Di" or "Do #"? "Te" or "Ti b"?
I like Se-Sol-Si more than "Sol b - Sol - Sol #" (because it is
more concise and can be used for singing) but the question is
which is more frequently used. Could you, guys sort this out
between yourselves and let us know about the conclusion?
In the end there are two contradictory directions:
* a user should have a choice
* a user should get a clear interface (therefore, 30 different
notation options are not acceptable).
So, I would choose one of those (my vote goes for
Do-Ti-Te/Li-La-Le/Si-Sol-Se/Fi-Fa-Mi-Me/Ri-Re-Ra/Di-Do), and
store it e.g. in a user-editable config file. Does this seem
reasonable?
~Marek
--
\/ /|\ Marek Wieckowski
##### | | |
= . . = \|/ Institute of Theoretical Physics
U | Warsaw University
/ ~ \___ |
<| | |
> . < | http://www.fuw.edu.pl/~wiecko
<<___>> | http://klearnnotes2.sourceforge.net
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From: <oxy...@ya...> - 2004-03-02 02:55:48
Attachments:
configure_out
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The notation that is used in the rest of the world is DO-DO#/REb-RE-RE#/MIb-MI-FA-FA#/SOLb-SOL-SOL#/LAb-LA-LA#/SIb- SI, even the singing guys use it. Also I decided to use Qcanvas for the game. Anyone have experience in this library? Here is an attachment text file with my last ./configure. Some devel stuff must be missing. Cheers!! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. http://net.yahoo.com.mx |
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From: Marek W. <Mar...@fu...> - 2004-03-02 06:34:31
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On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, javier wrote:
> Also I decided to use Qcanvas for the game. Anyone
> have experience in this library?
Javier,
The notes, staff and lines are already now displayed in QCanvas.
The lines are inherited from QCanvasLines, Note inherits
QCanvasEllipse and clefs are basically QCanvasRectangles, and
so on.
This is much simpler than what it looks like. :) I will send you
some suggestions in a moment.
> Here is an attachment text file with my last
> ./configure.
> Some devel stuff must be missing.
? Is it the full file? It seems to be truncated. The last line
of what you sent is checking for meinproc... /usr/bin/meinproc
and no line above this one seems to report a problem.
On my computer after the 'meinproc' line there are few more:
===========
checking for meinproc... /usr/bin/meinproc
checking whether byte ordering is bigendian... no
checking for MAXPATHLEN... 4096
checking if doc should be compiled... yes
checking if po should be compiled... yes
checking if src should be compiled... yes
configure: creating ./config.status
config.status: creating Makefile
config.status: creating doc/Makefile
config.status: creating doc/en/Makefile
config.status: creating doc/HTML/Makefile
config.status: creating doc/px/Makefile
config.status: creating po/Makefile
config.status: creating src/Makefile
config.status: creating config.h
config.status: config.h is unchanged
config.status: executing depfiles commands
Good - your configure finished. Start make now
===========
Do you get anything like this?
~Marek
--
\/ /|\ Marek Wieckowski
##### | | |
= . . = \|/ Institute of Theoretical Physics
U | Warsaw University
/ ~ \___ |
<| | |
> . < | http://www.fuw.edu.pl/~wiecko
<<___>> | http://klearnnotes2.sourceforge.net
|
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From: <oxy...@ya...> - 2004-03-02 07:53:53
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here is the full output of configure. ???? Attachment 1. I am happy to see that is some work done already and will the time shorter to finish the game. this is how will work the game: level 1-3 treble clef level 4-6 bass clef level 7 treble + bass clef level 8-9 tenor clef level 10 all clefs The background will be the same, second attachment, exept for the tenor clef, when will be only this clef in the middle C, in black and the bass and treble, shaded. -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- treble-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- bass---------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- (treble)------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- Tenor- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- (bass)-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- also the third attachment is the way I want the game, with a Hummingbird that is controlled by the user and ballons instead of notes. That will make it way too diferent from noteattack and even the original Hummingbird. What do you think? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. http://net.yahoo.com.mx |
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From: Marek W. <Mar...@fu...> - 2004-03-03 12:48:12
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Javier,
On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, [iso-8859-1] javier wrote:
> /usr/bin/kde-config: error while loading shared libraries:
> libqt-mt.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
There are two kinds of qt libraries: with and without "multi thread" (mt)
support. You need the mt version.
On my comp "locate libqt-mt.so.3" gives (among other lines)
/usr/lib/qt-3.0.3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3.0.3
and "rpm -qf /usr/lib/qt-3.0.3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3.0.3" says "qt-3.0.3-11".
So maybe you have non-mt version of Qt? Note, that at least on my computer
libqt-mt.so.3 is part of mutli thread Qt, not Qt-devel.
Anyway, you should be able to run kde-config from command line. On my
computer '/usr/bin/kde-config --prefix' gives
/usr
> --------------------------------------------------------
I really like your idea of the game. :)
> level 1-3 treble clef
But, please, please, in the beginning focus only on this. Make the game
work on treble clef (and forget about grand staff for a while), without
changing any graphics. I believe, you can do this quite quickly. :)
Please: KISS. _K_eep _I_t _S_uuuuper _S_imple. Small steps - this is the
only way to progress!
You said, you have no experience with Qt. This way you will learn how
things are used in this library, get some experience, so working in future
on the grand staff (both treble and bass clefs on the same page) will be
easier. If you jump right now into this you may spend enormous amount of
time, and do something that doesn't really fit other parts of the program
(so your grand staff may be hard to use for other exercises etc.).
Let me say it again: please focus now on making the game work on treble
clef, and treat this as an occasion to get familiar with kln2 source.
~Marek
--
\/ /|\ Marek Wieckowski
##### | | |
= . . = \|/ Institute of Theoretical Physics
U | Warsaw University
/ ~ \___ |
<| | |
> . < | http://www.fuw.edu.pl/~wiecko
<<___>> | http://klearnnotes2.sourceforge.net
|
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From: <oxy...@ya...> - 2004-03-03 19:15:17
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Marek: [root@linux]# apt-get install qt Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done qt is already the newest version. 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 removed and 0 not upgraded. [root@linux]# locate libqt-mt.so.3 /usr/lib/qt-3.1/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 /usr/lib/qt-3.1/lib/libqt-mt.so.3.1 /usr/lib/qt-3.1/lib/libqt-mt.so.3.1.2 [root@linux]# rpm -qf /usr/lib/qt-3.1/lib/libqt-mt.so.3.1.2 qt-3.1.2-14 [root@linux]# /usr/bin/kde-config --prefix /usr/bin/kde-config: error while loading shared libraries: libqt-mt.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or director My system is apt based (Planetccrma) I only need the name of the rpm to install it. Thanks, Marek _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? La mejor conexión a internet y 25MB extra a tu correo por $100 al mes. http://net.yahoo.com.mx |
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From: Silhusk <si...@bl...> - 2004-03-03 10:19:56
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Hi, > The notation that is used in the rest of the world is > DO-DO#/REb-RE-RE#/MIb-MI-FA-FA#/SOLb-SOL-SOL#/LAb-LA-LA#/SIb- > SI, even the singing guys use it. I agree, personally I didn't even know about the existence of the Do-Ti-Te stuff! (I found some info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege ) The idea of a user-editable config file is great, but we should provide pre-configured files for most notations. Otherwise the user would have to write his own config file before starting to learn notes. Anyway, how can the user know wich notation he should learn? What about a wizard to let the user chose the notation from a complete list with descriptions (also geographical), and let him chose also the input method (fretboard/keyboard)? BTW: I speak/write italian, english, french and (some way) german; no spanish, sorry... regards, Carlo |
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From: Marek W. <Mar...@fu...> - 2004-03-03 22:17:02
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On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Silhusk wrote:
> I agree, personally I didn't even know about the existence of the
> Do-Ti-Te stuff!
OK. It is Fernando, Javier and Carlo against Mo. The case is closed:
we stick to Do-Do#/Reb-Re stuff for now.
Mo, if you think Do-Di/Ra-Re is useful it can be coded in future, but
even then Do-Do#/Reb-Re should be left as a default Solfeggio.
> The idea of a user-editable config file is great, but we should provide
> pre-configured files for most notations.
Sure. :)
> What about a wizard to
> let the user chose the notation from a complete list with descriptions
> (also geographical), and let him chose also the input method
> (fretboard/keyboard)?
We'll see. Anyway, I think this should NOT (!) be solved by translations -
any user should be able to train any notation system, even if it seems
not to fit to his language.
For now we have three or four notes' names conventions - it can be
handled by a simple menu. In future, if other things will be
geography-dependent we can think about such a wizard dialog.
~Marek
--
\/ /|\ Marek Wieckowski
##### | | |
= . . = \|/ Institute of Theoretical Physics
U | Warsaw University
/ ~ \___ |
<| | |
> . < | http://www.fuw.edu.pl/~wiecko
<<___>> | http://klearnnotes2.sourceforge.net
|
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From: Marek W. <Mar...@fu...> - 2004-03-04 14:52:40
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On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Mo wrote:
> I hate to beat the subject into the ground but I do think we should look
> beyond our group and decide what is best for our users.
OK. The problem is, that kln2 is fairly new program so solutions like:
> Or can we set up a poll on the homepage and let people vote for a
> determined period of time?
simply would not work. And I'm not sure if it is clear for us what we
would ask about in the poll (I mean, what the choice really is).
> Are we going to implement this soon?
Yeah, why not? It doesn't seem as too much work. If Fernando will have
time to do this fast - great, if not, someone else can do this. This is
really not much work. :) And most of this involves moving from using one
char to a QString - it does not depend on which Solfeggio convention is
used.
And, anyway, the most important question always is where are we aiming,
not in what order etc. So: what is the perfect final goal?
> I wrote up an elaborate e-mail explaining this system [...]
> I'm not sure if I send it now
Sure. Send it.
Just to restate the problem:
1. we need Solfeggio, because apparently this main method of naming notes
in some parts of the world (not because it is easier to be sung)
2. movable Do doesn't solve (1.) because it is not used there (and would
teach people things their folks would not understand)
3. fixed Do is ambiguous (see bellow).
> Is this Solfege system suggesting an *altered* Fixed Do method?
OK, OK. This needs clarifying:
> The Fixed Do system assigns the Solfege words to specific notes. The
> note "C" will alway be "Do". The note "D" will always be "Re".
Yes. So as long as there are no sharps/flats there is no problem.
> But say you have a "C#" ... in the Fixed Do system it will still assing
> "Do" to this note.
OK. But this introduces a confusion, I guess.
1. In one of his letters, Fernando suggested that the same convention is
also used for scale naming. You can call both C and C# "Do" when you see a
note in a staff. But now imagine a name-to-scale exercise. Give an user a
task, say "put appropriate number of accidentals to build up a key
signature 'Do major'". Now, how to hell the user is to figure out if she
is to put no accidentals (for C Major) or 7 sharps (for C# Major)?
2. Similar problem: we have to test if an user remembers the key signature
in the following part of the score. OK, we have G Major key signature. Now
there is a F note in the score. "Dear user, what is the name of this
note?". Well, if we don't distinguish Fa and Fa# we cannot test if the
user remembers that key signature applies to this note.
I guess, this is why the "modified Fixed Do" appeared in the discussion.
I mean, what to do about it? I think, we have to distinguish F from F#
(right?). If fixed Do doesn't do this and people have never seen anything
like Fi what else, apart from introducing "Fa#" can we do?
> ******************
> MOVABLE DO SYSTEM
> Written Solfege:
> DOb REb MIb FAb SOLb LAb TIb
>
> Sung Solfege:
> "dough flat" "ray flat" "me flat" "fa flat" "sol flat" "la flat" tea
> flat"
> *******************
:D Yep, that's the problem I meant when in one of previous e-mails I voted
for movable Do.
> Can I repeat myself here? The Solfege method was developed with intent
> of being sung. Singing an "A flat minor" scale and pronouncing each
> "flat" is not really smooth.
OK. But I suppose, we can assume that users are not complete morons. There
is a distinction between what you say/sing and what you recognize. If we
write
Do, Do#, Re
it doesn't mean you have to sing "do, do-sharp,ray". You would rather sing
"Do,Do,Re" but REMEMBER that the second Do has a sharp. (OK, some users
will get caught in this trap - so what to do about it? Would a clear
helpfile stressing this point do?).
I mean, after all we will force users to make some mouse clicks, right?
Even if you use fixed Do you are aware that sometimes "Do" means C#.
What we would do by introducing "Do#" string would be like saying "it's
Do, but it has a sharp". Is it really different from what you THINK when
you use fixed Do?
> If so, why are we even bothering using solfege at all? We might
> as well sing A minor like this:
>
> A Flat - B Flat - C Flat - D Flat - E Flat ....
Yep. In the US - maybe. ;)
> If so, why are we even bothering using solfege at all?
Because the guys repored, that in their environment naming notes by single
letters is virtually not used. They use Do/Re/Mi for everything: naming
notes, scales, pieces of music.
Just to summarize:
* fixed Do seems too limited to be used for all kinds of questions
* movable Do is great; theoretically :( ; there is no point in forcing
users to learn things nobody around them would understand
* fixed Do can be very simply modified by adding a #/b sign after note's
name; it's up to a user if she pronounces it; nevertheless, everybody
using fixed Do has this modification in their minds - you do remember if
by saying "Re" you mean "D", "D#" or "Db".
Therefore I believe, adding a sharp/flat sign to indicate what you mean by
"Re" is not that great of unorthodoxy. Would it be really confusing?
So I suggest that the aim (and choice for users) would be four kinds of
note's names:
* English (one letter, with A-B-C)
* German (one letter, with A-H-C)
* modified Fixed Do ( Do-Do#-Re with an explanation in docs: "Do#" is to
be sung "Do", just remember it has a sharp)
* Movable Do (Do-Di-Re).
And, yes, I agree. We have to clarify this. No discussion is closed until
we find a satisfactory solution.
~Marek
--
\/ /|\ Marek Wieckowski
##### | | |
= . . = \|/ Institute of Theoretical Physics
U | Warsaw University
/ ~ \___ |
<| | |
> . < | http://www.fuw.edu.pl/~wiecko
<<___>> | http://klearnnotes2.sourceforge.net
|
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