From: Markus <kam...@we...> - 2009-04-28 14:23:04
Attachments:
Kdenlive.png
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I think it's time for a new icon. The current one is a bit old-school, isn't it? I'm no artist, but I modified the awesome DragonPlayer icon a bit. If you think that this mock-up is OK, I'll try to improve it as much as I can or alternatively I'll send you the SVG file. If you think that a new icon is needed, but my mock-up totally sucks, I'll try to approach the Oxygen icon team. What's your opinion? -- Markus |
From: Salvatore B. <ope...@gm...> - 2009-04-28 14:46:15
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On martedì 28 aprile 2009 14:22:41 Markus wrote: > I think it's time for a new icon. The current one is a bit old-school, > isn't it? > I'm no artist, but I modified the awesome DragonPlayer icon a bit. If you > think that this mock-up is OK, I'll try to improve it as much as I can or > alternatively I'll send you the SVG file. > If you think that a new icon is needed, but my mock-up totally sucks, I'll > try to approach the Oxygen icon team. > > What's your opinion? > > -- Markus I'll certainly vote for an "onxygenation" of the actual icon/logo. I think a good Brand shouldn't be radically changed. Improved, but not changed. I like the actual logo and i believe Oxygen guys can share some tips to refresh it a bit. -- Salvatore Brigaglia ____________________________ http://opensourcecat.blogspot.com http://www.kde-it.org jabber: ope...@gm... ____________________________ |
From: Dan D. <da...@de...> - 2009-04-28 16:23:25
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2009/4/28 Markus <kam...@we...>: > I think it's time for a new icon. The current one is a bit old-school, isn't > it? I do not mean to appear rude, but is not any image involving film or film-oriented production (e.g. clapper board) old school? I am 40 years old now, and I do remember my father splicing 8mm film, but I doubt many even in my generation was exposed to it. However, I do not disagree that people still recognize and understand it, and I personally do like nostalgia. If we have an old school image, maybe it should have a more nostalgic, weathered, and dirty look as opposed to this clean one. :-) > If you think that a new icon is needed, but my mock-up totally sucks, I'll try > to approach the Oxygen icon team. We had someone contribute a new icon not too long ago, but it was dismissed as being too similar to a trademarked one from a commercial offering in this space. So, be careful of that. I do not think this is similar to anything from a big commercial vendor, but it would not surprised me if it is the same as something from a lower end Windows product. FWIW, I prefer something more abstract and less generic or obvious, which is probably counter to the Oxygen approach. -- +-DRD-+ |
From: Mads B. D. <ma...@dy...> - 2009-04-28 16:37:27
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Tirsdag 28 april 2009 skrev Dan Dennedy: > 2009/4/28 Markus <kam...@we...>: > > I think it's time for a new icon. The current one is a bit old-school, > > isn't it? > > I do not mean to appear rude, but is not any image involving film or > film-oriented production (e.g. clapper board) old school? film, yes clapper board? Aren't they still used in almost all productions? Or, only in analog recordings? > We had someone contribute a new icon not too long ago, but it was > dismissed as being too similar to a trademarked one from a commercial > offering in this space. Opinions differed on the matter :-) Mads -- Mads Bondo Dydensborg ma...@dy... http://www.madsdydensborg.dk/ "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." -George Washington, November 4, 1796 "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -George H. W. Bush, August 27, 1987 |
From: Markus <kam...@we...> - 2009-04-28 17:32:59
Attachments:
Kdenlive2.png
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Am Dienstag 28 April 2009 18:23:17 schrieb Dan Dennedy: > 2009/4/28 Markus <kam...@we...>: > > I think it's time for a new icon. The current one is a bit old-school, > > isn't it? > > I do not mean to appear rude, but is not any image involving film or > film-oriented production (e.g. clapper board) old school? I meant the design, not what's shown. The current one is a but Win98-ish. Celluloid film is still widely used in cinemas, so it's not that old school. Film is probably more recognizable than a video tape or a DVD. > We had someone contribute a new icon not too long ago, but it was > dismissed as being too similar to a trademarked one from a commercial > offering in this space. So, be careful of that. I do not think this is > similar to anything from a big commercial vendor, but it would not > surprised me if it is the same as something from a lower end Windows > product. All Oxygen icons for documents are basically just Mac OS X icons flipped vertically. Honestly, I don't think we have to fear much. Worst case scenario: We receive a cease and desist letter. In such case we could just revert to the old artwork. My mock-up is just the DragonPlayer icon minus the dragon and the scissors from the tango icon set with thinner outlines. That clapperboard talk made me think and I just found a great drawing on Wikimedia Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clapperboard.png I modified it a little bit. The "Kdenlive" string would be removed in smaller versions. What do you think? |
From: Dan D. <da...@de...> - 2009-04-28 18:36:38
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2009/4/28 Markus <kam...@we...>: > Am Dienstag 28 April 2009 18:23:17 schrieb Dan Dennedy: >> 2009/4/28 Markus <kam...@we...>: >> > I think it's time for a new icon. The current one is a bit old-school, >> > isn't it? >> >> I do not mean to appear rude, but is not any image involving film or >> film-oriented production (e.g. clapper board) old school? > > I meant the design, not what's shown. Oh, Ok. Well, it does more closely match the fresh style of the site and KDE4. Several people have asked for a new logo. > Celluloid film is still widely used in cinemas, so it's not that old school. I was thinking more about our audience. I have never used a clapperboard and never went to film school. However, I have worked with my father's 8mm film. > Film is probably more recognizable than a video tape or a DVD. Yes, probably so as an image. I have a window already open to the following page; I think that mocha logo in the freeze-frame of the embedded video is rather cool if totally meaningless: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/training/trainup/10837.html Please review the following threads. Unfortunately, many of the attachments were lost in the forum migration: http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft2 -- +-DRD-+ |
From: Markus <kam...@we...> - 2009-04-28 23:51:19
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Am Dienstag 28 April 2009 20:36:27 schrieb Dan Dennedy: > Please review the following threads. Unfortunately, many of the > attachments were lost in the forum migration: > > http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft > http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft2 Well, they talk about "N" and "K" icons, but I can't actually see one of them. Too bad. They were probably better than my lame attempts at modifying real artists' graphics. I'm becoming more and more fond of the clapperboard icon. The licenses of the original graphic are just fine for a FOSS project (dual-licensed: GNU FDL and CC-BY 2.0). The main two authors of Kdenlive 0.7x seem to be Jean-Baptiste and Ray: If you guys don't disagree, I'd like to commit that icon in a few days. |
From: Ray L. <ra...@ma...> - 2009-04-29 00:40:18
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On Tuesday 28 April 2009 17:51:05 Markus wrote: > The main two authors of Kdenlive 0.7x seem to be Jean-Baptiste and Ray: If > you guys don't disagree, I'd like to commit that icon in a few days. i don;t have an opinion either way, but jean-baptiste is the real author here, so i'd defer to his opinion in any case. ray |
From: Mads B. D. <ma...@dy...> - 2009-04-29 07:00:17
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Onsdag 29 april 2009 skrev Markus: > Am Dienstag 28 April 2009 20:36:27 schrieb Dan Dennedy: > > Please review the following threads. Unfortunately, many of the > > attachments were lost in the forum migration: > > > > http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft > > http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft2 > > Well, they talk about "N" and "K" icons, but I can't actually see one of > them. Too bad. They were probably better than my lame attempts at modifying > real artists' graphics. I *think* this one was the most current: http://projects.zeno.thinkhost.com/kdenlive/Kdenlive_Logo.new.png It will be possibly to obtain the .xcf files + stuff, if needed. > I'm becoming more and more fond of the clapperboard icon. The licenses of > the original graphic are just fine for a FOSS project (dual-licensed: GNU > FDL and CC-BY 2.0). > The main two authors of Kdenlive 0.7x seem to be Jean-Baptiste and Ray: If > you guys don't disagree, I'd like to commit that icon in a few days. You need to get the approval of jmpoure for this, unless things have changed since december. You may want to read this thread for reference: http://www.mail-archive.com/kde...@li.../msg01231.html Regards Mads -- Mads Bondo Dydensborg ma...@dy... http://www.madsdydensborg.dk/ I don't say this lightly. However, I really think that the U.S. no longer is classifiable as a democracy, but rather as a plutocracy. - H. Peter Anvin |
From: Dan D. <da...@de...> - 2009-04-29 01:01:57
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On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Markus <kam...@we...> wrote: > Am Dienstag 28 April 2009 20:36:27 schrieb Dan Dennedy: > >> Please review the following threads. Unfortunately, many of the >> attachments were lost in the forum migration: >> >> http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft >> http://www.kdenlive.org/forum/kdenlive-kde4-logo-draft2 > > Well, they talk about "N" and "K" icons, but I can't actually see one of them. > Too bad. They were probably better than my lame attempts at modifying real > artists' graphics. Cinepheliac's photo/avatar is one popular draft of the icon he proposed. If you rotate it, 90 degrees, you can can kind of see it. > I'm becoming more and more fond of the clapperboard icon. The licenses of the It's not bad, but not much more interesting to me that what we have, but I used a clapperboard with Kino, Avidemux uses it, and Totem uses it as a splash/idle image. Probably other apps use it as well. Any interest to enliven the existing icon? > The main two authors of Kdenlive 0.7x seem to be Jean-Baptiste and Ray: If you > guys don't disagree, I'd like to commit that icon in a few days. http://www.ohloh.net/p/11084/contributors I am pretty low as I mostly stick to MLT. JB definitely needs to weigh in. -- +-DRD-+ |
From: Markus <kam...@we...> - 2009-04-29 08:21:24
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Am Mittwoch 29 April 2009 08:43:07 schrieb Mads Bondo Dydensborg: > You need to get the approval of jmpoure for this, unless things have > changed since december. I don't think that he can overrule Jean-Baptiste. > You may want to read this thread for reference: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/kde...@li.../msg01231.h >tml Jean-Michel brought up some points -- I don't think that these have anything to do with who has power over this project. While I think that alleged similarities with FinalCut (Pro) are pretty far fetched, I see the issue with icon similarity with Kino (for my mock-up as well as Cinephiliac's design). Maybe I should modify the string and submit the clapperboard icon to Kino, because (at least on my system) the Kino icon is very low-res. :-) What should I do now? Try to improve my first mock-up? Should I approach a real artist from the Oxygen team and ask for a new clapperboard-free design? My two mock-ups only took a few minutes, but if I do any of the two, I at least like to have the prospect that the new design will actually be adopted by Kdenlive -- especially when I approach an icon designer on behalf of Kdenlive... |
From: Dan D. <da...@de...> - 2009-04-29 17:01:53
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On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Markus <kam...@we...> wrote: > Am Mittwoch 29 April 2009 08:43:07 schrieb Mads Bondo Dydensborg: > similarities with FinalCut (Pro) are pretty far fetched, I see the issue with > icon similarity with Kino (for my mock-up as well as Cinephiliac's design). > Maybe I should modify the string and submit the clapperboard icon to Kino, > because (at least on my system) the Kino icon is very low-res. :-) Don't bother. I was the Kino lead developer, and I have a while ago stopped active development and even stopped active maintenance on it at the beginning of this year. -- +-DRD-+ |
From: Jean-Michel P. <jm...@po...> - 2009-04-29 09:31:36
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On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:21 +0200, Markus wrote: > > > You need to get the approval of jmpoure for this, unless things have > > changed since december. > > I don't think that he can overrule Jean-Baptiste. Mads, don't make it a personal issue. The claperboard is a registered logo from one or several companies. The clapper board is the official logo from Final Cut Pro. A registered logo is a like a trademark. Why would you want Kdenlive into trouble just because you spent a couple of hours on this logo and don't understand the principles of law? Why don't you send us a letter that in case of a law suit, you are responsible on your personal assets including house, portfolio, etc ... |
From: Mads B. D. <ma...@dy...> - 2009-04-29 10:51:10
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Onsdag 29 april 2009 skrev Jean-Michel Pouré: > On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:21 +0200, Markus wrote: > > > You need to get the approval of jmpoure for this, unless things have > > > changed since december. > > > > I don't think that he can overrule Jean-Baptiste. > > Mads, don't make it a personal issue. I did not intend to. It is my impression from the last time this issue was up, that you was in charge of this part of Kdenlive. Which is exactly why I mention your role to Markus; he needs to make you aware of his work in an early stage. > The claperboard is a registered logo from one or several companies. The > clapper board is the official logo from Final Cut Pro. A registered logo > is a like a trademark. I perfectly understand this, but disagree with your judgement, which I thought I had made clear. > Why would you want Kdenlive into trouble just because you spent a couple > of hours on this logo and don't understand the principles of law? *I* did not spend time on it. Cinephiliac spent considerable time on it, while receiving feedback from e.g. jb. Please review the old thread to understand the process/community issue I raised and which I think we should learn from (another reason to make Markus aware of your role re logos). Please note, AFAIRC I never questioned your role, nor the legal issues, only your judgement on the specific issue. Re the law: I believe I *fully* understand this. I feel impelled to mention that I have, in 2002, been used as an "expert" by the Danish Goverment on issues surrounding copyright in relation to the implementation of the EU Infosoc directive in Danish Law. Although this is not trademark related per- se, please believe me; I *do* understand (the core of) the issues. To this day, I still work with IP issues in a political context. I asked you for a link or reference to the full *non-textual* trademark registration for Final Cut Pro. You never responded. I understand this, as it is not straightforward to find this, but I was hoping you had solid knowledge about it, not only the "tm" next to some logo. The actual registration may contain specifics on which part of a logo/text (combo) that are protected, and, more importantly, which are not. In the beginning of 2009 I went to the trouble to consult (free) legal advise on the logo by Cinephiliac, and even sought the advise of the Danish Patent And Trademark Commision. All informal legal judgements suggested that your judgement (re the similarity to the Final Cut Pro logo) was in error. > Why don't you send us a letter that in case of a law suit, you are > responsible on your personal assets including house, portfolio, etc ... This is clearly not needed. First of all, Kdenlive could easily be considered a non-profit endavour, and even Adobe would, assuming they felt their trademark has been violated, probably just ask (perhaps not very kindly) that we just stop using it. There is no need to assume a "full-blown" attack; even Adobe would know that they gain very little from that. Check this link: http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry2707.html first ask, if no comply, lawsuit. This is very common with trademarks. The option to comply is almost always given, because trademark lawsuits are a pain for everyone involved. Secondly: There is a very easy way to circumvent the whole trouble; we could just trademark the Kdenlive Logo ourself. As part of the process, the Trademark office will make a legal judgement if the logo infringes on anyone elses trademark. For a Danish registration the cost is about €320. Since Final Cut Pro is registered in DK, this should be enough to demonstrate good-faith in not wanting to infringe anyone elses trademark. To make even more sure, another €900 (post may) will give you an EU wide trademark. Because Cinephiliac did not appear interessted in this approach, and I basiscally consider it unneccesary, I did not follow this route. So, in summary: Pointing Markus to you was meant as a constructive measure - IMO its important that he gets your "blessing" (so to speak), before spending time on a new logo. I believe I *do* understand the issues, but I disagree with your judgement in the possibly infringement on Final Cut Pros logo. I do not think I will have more to add to this discussion. I fully respect that we disagree on the judgement - just wanted to make sure that it was known that I believe I understand the issues. Best regards Mads -- Mads Bondo Dydensborg ma...@dy... http://www.madsdydensborg.dk/ I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. - Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 1907 (many times wrongfully attributed to Voltaire) |
From: amir s. <am...@ne...> - 2009-04-29 10:02:33
Attachments:
kdenlive.svg
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1. I made a oxygen kdenlive icon just to see how hard it is (combined 2 other icons...) thats looks like the old one. I'm pretty sure that the oxygen icon team will gladly help. 2. the lumiera project is a re wright of Cinelerra CV, it seem it is going nowhere, and a few month ago they did a logo contest. you can take a look here: http://www.pipapo.org/pipawiki/Lumiera/Logos you can get some ideas or even contact the artist who made those to make changes to fit kdenlive. or even better lets have a contest of our own! I'm sure it will be good for spreading the word of kdenlive. regards, Amir |
From: Salvatore B. <ope...@gm...> - 2009-04-29 14:06:34
Attachments:
kdenlive_new_icon.svg
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In data mercoledì 29 aprile 2009 12:02:15, amir sher ha scritto: : > 1. I made a oxygen kdenlive icon just to see how hard it is (combined 2 > other icons...) thats looks like the old one. I'm pretty sure that the > oxygen icon team will gladly help. I have rotated it a bit to look pretty similar to the old one. I have put some circles around some incorrectness i couldn't delete. For what i think, again, this is the way to go: A restyling of the old icon. I am also sure that Oxygen team would give some advice -- ___________________________ Salvatore Brigaglia http://www.kde-it.org http://opensourcecat.blogspot.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/opensourcecat |
From: Dan D. <da...@de...> - 2009-05-01 16:57:38
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2009/4/29 amir sher <am...@ne...>: > 1. I made a oxygen kdenlive icon just to see how hard it is (combined 2 > other icons...) thats looks like the old one. I'm pretty sure that the > oxygen icon team will gladly help. I like this and the variation submitted by Salvatore. I think both of them look a little zoomed-out tho - maybe the middle frame in the film strip looks a bit long. I was thinking it would be nice to see a variation of the existing icon but with different coloring and shading. I think this comes close, but I would like to hear from others. -- +-DRD-+ |
From: Philippe L. <li...@us...> - 2009-04-29 11:39:22
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Your icon got me excited and happy the moment i saw it. It is refreshing, dynamic, joyful, calling attention, colourful yet still elegant. Also, it scales well. It mirrors the dynamism of KDEnlive's development, and typical for KDE. A clapboard, in contrast, is backward, stalling in the authoritarian commercialist, colourless cutting off. Apple used it for years for their iMovie, but there it was blue. Thanks for Kdenlive, it enriches our life. Is the stalling of ffmpeg/VDPAU due to lack of money ? Kind regards Philippe -- Markus wrote: > I think it's time for a new icon. The current one is a bit old-school, isn't > it? > I'm no artist, but I modified the awesome DragonPlayer icon a bit. If you think > that this mock-up is OK, I'll try to improve it as much as I can or > alternatively I'll send you the SVG file. > If you think that a new icon is needed, but my mock-up totally sucks, I'll try > to approach the Oxygen icon team. > > What's your opinion? > > -- Markus |
From: Markus <kam...@we...> - 2009-04-29 11:44:33
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Am Mittwoch 29 April 2009 11:25:49 schrieb Jean-Michel Pouré: > The claperboard is a registered logo from one or several companies. The > clapper board is the official logo from Final Cut Pro. A registered logo > is a like a trademark. > > Why would you want Kdenlive into trouble just because you spent a couple > of hours on this logo and don't understand the principles of law? I really think that you are overreacting. Cinephiliac's design as well as my mock-up are very different from FinalCut's icon. You are probably confusing something. A registered logo does not mean that every graphic containing a clapperboard suddenly becomes illegal. It has to closely resemble the registered logo, which neither does. The only real issue is usability. To have an icon that looks very similar to the one from Kino is confusing. So a single black clapperboard is bad. |
From: Jean-Michel P. <jm...@po...> - 2009-04-30 18:55:50
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On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:21 +0200, Markus wrote: > Jean-Michel brought up some points -- I don't think that these have > anything > to do with who has power over this project. While I think that > alleged > similarities with FinalCut (Pro) are pretty far fetched, I see the > issue with > icon similarity with Kino (for my mock-up as well as Cinephiliac's > design). > Maybe I should modify the string and submit the clapperboard icon to > Kino, > because (at least on my system) the Kino icon is very low-res. :-) http://www.apple.com/legal/trademark/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html You may not use the Apple Logo or any other Apple-owned graphic symbol, logo, or icon on or in connection with web sites, products, packaging, manuals, promotional/advertising materials, or for any other purpose except pursuant to an express written trademark license from Apple, such as a reseller agreement. To explain : The clapperboard is a registered trademark from Apple in the category of video software. If you use a clapperboard Apple may claim at any moment that it introduces a similarity with Apple Final Cut pro. When you register a trademark, you usually register the name AND some graphics, including icons. The problem is that you will not go to court. Jean-Baptiste will. So if you post your ID, address and you ensure that you will pay for any legal assistance and cover the cost of trial, including final payment, then we may reconsider your point of view. Don't make it a personal issue. We know you have been working a couple of hours on this project, but this is not enough to destroy JB life. If you don't know anything about law, contact a lawyer. Stay away from this clapperboard logo. IMHO, invest some time and efforts into something different. Kind regards, Jean-Michel |
From: Markus <kam...@we...> - 2009-04-30 21:14:02
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Am Donnerstag 30 April 2009 20:32:42 schrieb Jean-Michel Pouré: > You may not use the Apple Logo or any other Apple-owned graphic symbol, > logo, or icon on or in connection with web sites, products, packaging, > manuals, promotional/advertising materials, or for any other purpose > except pursuant to an express written trademark license from Apple, such > as a reseller agreement. Nobody used an Icon by Apple. Stop spreading FUD. Thank you. |
From: amir s. <am...@ne...> - 2009-05-01 18:10:43
Attachments:
kdenlive2.svg
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Dan Dennedy wrote: > 2009/4/29 amir sher <am...@ne...>: >> 1. I made a oxygen kdenlive icon just to see how hard it is (combined 2 >> other icons...) thats looks like the old one. I'm pretty sure that the >> oxygen icon team will gladly help. > > I like this and the variation submitted by Salvatore. I think both of > them look a little zoomed-out tho - maybe the middle frame in the film > strip looks a bit long. I was thinking it would be nice to see a > variation of the existing icon but with different coloring and > shading. I think this comes close, but I would like to hear from > others. > made a new version. |
From: el j. d. <elj...@gm...> - 2009-05-01 19:24:05
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I really like the new look of this icon; however film (in motion cameras at least; still-image cameras I've forgotten!) runs up-and-down so the individual frames would be more wide than they are tall; currently the frames in that film strip are turned sideways (they are taller than they are wide). Changing this might end up causing too many film frames in the icon and make it a muddled mess, but I thought I should point that out. If we want the app to look like it works well for editing, we should at least make it look like we know what film is! :) Just my 2c of course, and I like the look of the updated icon and the 'tape' on it; in the past I never knew what that yellow thing was. Tape! |
From: Dan D. <da...@de...> - 2009-05-01 18:54:19
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2009/5/1 amir sher <am...@ne...>: > Dan Dennedy wrote: >> >> 2009/4/29 amir sher <am...@ne...>: >>> >>> 1. I made a oxygen kdenlive icon just to see how hard it is (combined 2 >>> other icons...) thats looks like the old one. I'm pretty sure that the >>> oxygen icon team will gladly help. >> >> I like this and the variation submitted by Salvatore. I think both of >> them look a little zoomed-out tho - maybe the middle frame in the film >> strip looks a bit long. I was thinking it would be nice to see a >> variation of the existing icon but with different coloring and >> shading. I think this comes close, but I would like to hear from >> others. >> > > made a new version. I prefer the old tape because I do not like the jarring torn ends, and the orange-pink color stands out more, but I do not know which is more typical. Also, the spoke holes should be closed, no? -- +-DRD-+ |
From: jb <jb...@kd...> - 2009-05-01 20:17:14
Attachments:
kdenlive3.png
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On Friday 01 May 2009 20:54:17 Dan Dennedy wrote: > I prefer the old tape because I do not like the jarring torn ends, and > the orange-pink color stands out more, but I do not know which is more > typical. Also, the spoke holes should be closed, no? Hi. Finally found some time to look at this thread... I agree with Dan that I prefer a plain tape without torn edges and that the holes should be closed. I made a quick preview of what it might look like, see attached. However one of my biggest concern is the icon size. Of course svg icons look very nice with gradients and all, but when scaled to 24x24 or 32x32, it is starting to look worst than my original Kdenlive icon... So maybe it is good to think about it and also try to render 24x24 and 32x32 icons... regards |