From: Ray D. <ray...@ya...> - 2006-03-28 13:20:09
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> Just some musings on this. Since this company you reference is obviously > benefiting substantially from Jython, maybe you could sell your superiors > on donating $50K or so to the Python Software Foundation earmarked to > making the improvements to Jython you want to you can use it more widely? If this happens it'd be great :) That said, I wonder if the PSF grant has been helpful in this regard? I've got the impression that right now Jython is maintained/developed by a few brave & benevolent souls who are taking their spare time to do this--a no less than heroic feat. Has the grant been helpful or it hasn't been, er, granted at all, because of the missed milestones in April, July, and November 2005? <snip> --Paul Fernhout --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Jython-users mailing list Jyt...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users End of Jython-users Digest |
From: Kent J. <ke...@td...> - 2006-03-28 14:29:13
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Ray Djajadinata wrote: >That said, I wonder if the PSF grant has been helpful in this regard? I've got the impression that right now Jython is maintained/developed by a few brave & benevolent souls who are taking their spare time to do this--a no less than heroic feat. Has the grant been helpful or it hasn't been, er, granted at all, because of the missed milestones in April, July, and November 2005? Hmm...does anyone know if the grant money was given to Brian? If not, maybe it could be made available to someone else to work on Jython? Kent |
From: Samuele P. <ped...@st...> - 2006-03-28 15:16:46
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Ray Djajadinata wrote: >>Just some musings on this. Since this company you reference is obviously >>benefiting substantially from Jython, maybe you could sell your superiors >>on donating $50K or so to the Python Software Foundation earmarked to >>making the improvements to Jython you want to you can use it more widely? >> >> > >If this happens it'd be great :) > >That said, I wonder if the PSF grant has been helpful in this regard? I've got the impression that right now Jython is maintained/developed by a few brave & benevolent souls who are taking their spare time to do this--a no less than heroic feat. Has the grant been helpful or it hasn't been, er, granted at all, because of the missed milestones in April, July, and November 2005? > > > > well, I think people underestimate how difficult to maintain the codebase is, it takes a lot of time to absorb enough of it such that making changes does not too easely break things or subtly change the presented behavior. So its cleanup, which of course is a delicate thing in itself, is a very important priority. Also CPython is not going to slow down for us, being ruthless at prioritizing is central. |
From: Ray D. <ray...@ya...> - 2006-03-28 16:46:17
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Hi Samuele, Thanks for your reply. Yes, I started going through the codebase about a fortnight ago and I can understand/imagine the difficulty of maintaining the current codebase--it is certainly not an easy task, and like Walter said, it took a certain interesting set of skills as well. About priority--I guess the fact that Frank was the one who had to come up with the new website was rather unfortunate since he's one of the few who are already familiar enough with the codebase to do something meaningful about it, i.e.: not taking anything from what Frank has had to do, but website is something that relatively a lot of people can do, whereas Jython development is something that maybe only less than, say, 10? people in the world currently can do. Going forward, the "pulse" that we send out to the world, i.e.: "Jython is alive!" is crucial. And IMO, nothing, nothing is a stronger pulse than releases towards the 2.2 release. OTOH, IMHO, the type of source repository (e.g.: Subversion vs. CVS) is not so visible a sign of life for Jython--not much impact to the user, not much impact to the managers to whom we've gotta sell it to. My guessing is that the need for Subversion arises because you are about to do a lot of refactorings? e.g.: moving files around, renaming files etc. ? I am absolutely aware that Jython vs. IronPython comparison is not fair because the latter has a team of dedicated, full-time employees, but the type of the pulse that they send, e.g.: frequent release (even if each release is not perfect), is a very strong indication of IronPython's aliveness. As a result the IP community is testing each release stringently, they can't wait to get a new release and test the heck out of it and play with it--it's really like a blog, where the fastest way for you to get people to stop coming to your site is by stop blogging. In any case, here I am wishing Frank the best in his dealings with the PSF! Hope the grant would come out soon... as well as 2.2 :) Would an online petition help in any case? :) I believe there are a bunch of us who'd be more than happy to sign if it'll help your case. Thanks, Ray ----- Original Message ---- From: Samuele Pedroni <ped...@st...> To: Ray Djajadinata <ray...@ya...> Cc: jyt...@li... Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 11:16:38 PM Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Re: Where do we go from here to get to 2.2 "proper" well, I think people underestimate how difficult to maintain the codebase is, it takes a lot of time to absorb enough of it such that making changes does not too easely break things or subtly change the presented behavior. So its cleanup, which of course is a delicate thing in itself, is a very important priority. Also CPython is not going to slow down for us, being ruthless at prioritizing is central. |
From: Frank W. <fwi...@gm...> - 2006-03-28 19:31:06
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> Going forward, the "pulse" that we send out to the world, i.e.: "Jython i= s alive!" is crucial. And IMO, nothing, nothing is a stronger pulse than re= leases towards the 2.2 release. This is probably true, but pre-release it is good to try to attract more developers, and a shiny new website may help there. >OTOH, IMHO, the type of source repository (e.g.: Subversion vs. CVS) is not so visible a sign of life for Jython--not much impact to the user, not much impact to the managers to whom we've gotta sell it to. My guessing is that the need for Subversion arises because you are about to do a lot of refactorings? e.g.: moving files around, renaming files etc. ? There is alot of refactoring that needs to be done. The quickest refactorings will be the moving around of directories to make a more "typical" java development directory that will be kinder to IDE's and to ant build scripts. > I am absolutely aware that Jython vs. IronPython comparison is not fair b= ecause the latter has a team of dedicated, full-time employees, but the typ= e of the pulse that they send, e.g.: frequent release (even if each release= is not perfect), is a very strong indication of IronPython's aliveness. As= a result the IP community is testing each release stringently, they can't = wait to get a new release and test the heck out of it and play with it--it'= s really like a blog, where the fastest way for you to get people to stop c= oming to your site is by stop blogging. I do plan to get more releases out more frequently. As soon as I'm done with the other things I mentioned, I'll accelerate on that front. -Frank |
From: Khalid Z. <kz...@gm...> - 2006-03-28 21:57:51
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On 3/28/06, Ray Djajadinata <ray...@ya...> wrote: >I am absolutely aware that Jython vs. IronPython comparison is not fair because the >latter has a team of dedicated, full-time employees, but the type of the pulse that they >send, e.g.: frequent release (even if each release is not perfect), is a very strong >indication of IronPython's aliveness. As a result the IP community is testing each >release stringently, they can't wait to get a new release and test the heck out of it >and play with it--it's really like a blog, where the fastest way for you to get people to >stop coming to your site is by stop blogging. Yeah, i think jython is missing out on some of that virtuous feedback loop between core development and users/testers/minor-contributors. I'm also sure the core devs know well what steps could improve that interaction (not letting tracker items go stale completely unaddressed forever, keeping bug-fix and feature contributors engaged by providing constructive feedback & mentorship, incorporating patches where appropriate, releasing frequent snapshots etc). Its probably more a matter of available time in otherwise busy lives, combined with having to deal with the loss of much project knowledge in the form of former core developers who have moved on to other things (though fortunately we still have Samuele around to be a bridge for the new generation). Still, on most days i'm optimistic the project can rebuild enough critical mass to keep development sustained, even without the corporate sponsorship ideas suggested elsewhere in this discussion. And hey, i do think we are doing a decent job as a group of fielding questions on the mailing lists, maybe a strength to build on. - kz |
From: Walter C. <cha...@gm...> - 2006-03-28 23:36:51
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Ray/KZ, I think that you guys mentioned some very important things: - Lack of core project knowledge - Lack of PR (updated website, news, releases...) - fair amount of activity on the mailing list - Samuele is the current bridge (I think frank is too...) - do we need coporate sponsership? May we perhaps implore Samuele and Frank to do some sort of handover for new developers? This would minimzie the "bumps" in the road that someone would have to go through to be productive with contributing to jython core... We should see what Frank has left with the website, and have some people volunteer to free him up to do this handover? I agree with Ray that although the webiste is good...it's a nice to have....we would be more excited about a new 2.2 release than the new website (it's nice tho...) But the basic things should be done...SF project summary page should be updated....the old site news should be updated....that stuff would draw attention as well. I don't think that corporate sponsership is the only option, but it shouldn't be overlooked as one :) In any case, people need to feed themselves and if they can do it while working on jython, that would be pretty cool... Our strenght is our product...we have a great one, as well as great people who are helping out on the mailing list...let's make sure this is highlighted in our new website :) Regards, Walter |
From: Leo U. <leo...@ya...> - 2006-03-28 23:47:17
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Are Frank and Samuele stepping out of the picture? I must have missed that one! :D leouser --- Walter Chang <cha...@gm...> wrote: > Ray/KZ, > > I think that you guys mentioned some very important > things: > > - Lack of core project knowledge > - Lack of PR (updated website, news, releases...) > - fair amount of activity on the mailing list > - Samuele is the current bridge (I think frank is > too...) > - do we need coporate sponsership? > > May we perhaps implore Samuele and Frank to do some > sort of handover > for new developers? > > This would minimzie the "bumps" in the road that > someone would have to > go through to be productive with contributing to > jython core... > > We should see what Frank has left with the website, > and have some > people volunteer to free him up to do this handover? > > I agree with Ray that although the webiste is > good...it's a nice to > have....we would be more excited about a new 2.2 > release than the new > website (it's nice tho...) > > But the basic things should be done...SF project > summary page should > be updated....the old site news should be > updated....that stuff would > draw attention as well. > > I don't think that corporate sponsership is the only > option, but it > shouldn't be overlooked as one :) In any case, > people need to feed > themselves and if they can do it while working on > jython, that would > be pretty cool... > > Our strenght is our product...we have a great one, > as well as great > people who are helping out on the mailing > list...let's make sure this > is highlighted in our new website :) > > Regards, > Walter > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a > groundbreaking scripting language > that extends applications into web and mobile media. > Attend the live webcast > and join the prime developer group breaking into > this new coding territory! > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid0944&bid$1720&dat1642 > _______________________________________________ > Jython-users mailing list > Jyt...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com |
From: Walter C. <cha...@gm...> - 2006-03-29 00:07:09
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no...i certainly hope not!! We were just metioning the possibility of a developer handover so new developers can get up to speed more easily :) On 3/28/06, Leo User <leo...@ya...> wrote: > Are Frank and Samuele stepping out of the picture? I > must have missed that one! :D > > leouser > -- Simplicity--the art of maximizing the amount of work not done--is essential. from: http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html |
From: Leo U. <leo...@ya...> - 2006-03-29 00:14:50
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Thank goodness! :D When I here talk of handing off stuff I sometimes think someone is leaving the project. When I was talking about going to java.net and putting up a help wanted add, I meant something like this: http://community.java.net/help_wanted/ I think even if jython isn't in java.net the idea may be good. People can peruse the mailing lists but I have no idea what work needs to be done. Having some indication of work that a developer might like to do may be 50% of the process in getting them involved. Otherwise, how does someone get involved? leouser --- Walter Chang <cha...@gm...> wrote: > no...i certainly hope not!! > > We were just metioning the possibility of a > developer handover so new > developers can get up to speed more easily :) > > > > On 3/28/06, Leo User <leo...@ya...> wrote: > > Are Frank and Samuele stepping out of the picture? > I > > must have missed that one! :D > > > > leouser > > -- > > > Simplicity--the art of maximizing the amount > of work not done--is essential. > from: http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a > groundbreaking scripting language > that extends applications into web and mobile media. > Attend the live webcast > and join the prime developer group breaking into > this new coding territory! > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid0944&bid$1720&dat1642 > _______________________________________________ > Jython-users mailing list > Jyt...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com |
From: Walter C. <cha...@gm...> - 2006-03-29 00:24:21
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That's a great idea...(I wasn't even aware that java.net had such a thing!) We should definately put this in the "plan" that we that will eventually form (right Frank?) Regards, Walter P.S. Sorry Frank...the PM streak in me surfaces time to time :) On 3/28/06, Leo User <leo...@ya...> wrote: > Thank goodness! :D When I here talk of handing off > stuff I sometimes think someone is leaving the > project. > > When I was talking about going to java.net and putting > up a help wanted add, I meant something like this: > http://community.java.net/help_wanted/ > > I think even if jython isn't in java.net the idea may > be good. People can peruse the mailing lists but I > have no idea what work needs to be done. Having some > indication of work that a developer might like to do > may be 50% of the process in getting them involved. > Otherwise, how does someone get involved? > > leouser > > --- Walter Chang <cha...@gm...> wrote: > > > no...i certainly hope not!! > > > > We were just metioning the possibility of a > > developer handover so new > > developers can get up to speed more easily :) > > > > > > > > On 3/28/06, Leo User <leo...@ya...> wrote: > > > Are Frank and Samuele stepping out of the picture? > > I > > > must have missed that one! :D > > > > > > leouser > > > -- > > > > > > Simplicity--the art of maximizing the amount > > of work not done--is essential. > > from: http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a > > groundbreaking scripting language > > that extends applications into web and mobile media. > > Attend the live webcast > > and join the prime developer group breaking into > > this new coding territory! > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=110944&bid$1720&dat=121642 > > _______________________________________________ > > Jython-users mailing list > > Jyt...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting langua= ge > that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webc= ast > and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territor= y! > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D110944&bid=3D241720&dat= =3D121642 > _______________________________________________ > Jython-dev mailing list > Jyt...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev > -- Simplicity--the art of maximizing the amount of work not done--is essential. from: http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html |
From: Leo U. <leo...@ya...> - 2006-03-29 00:43:57
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It may be even possible to just federate with them and reuse their advertising services: http://www.java.net/federating.csp Ill also bet people would pay attention to any developer blogs that are posted over there. They can be a real hoot sometimes(and also very interesting). leouser --- Walter Chang <cha...@gm...> wrote: > That's a great idea...(I wasn't even aware that > java.net had such a thing!) > We should definately put this in the "plan" that we > that will > eventually form (right Frank?) > > > Regards, > Walter > P.S. Sorry Frank...the PM streak in me surfaces > time to time :) > > On 3/28/06, Leo User <leo...@ya...> wrote: > > Thank goodness! :D When I here talk of handing > off > > stuff I sometimes think someone is leaving the > > project. > > > > When I was talking about going to java.net and > putting > > up a help wanted add, I meant something like this: > > http://community.java.net/help_wanted/ > > > > I think even if jython isn't in java.net the idea > may > > be good. People can peruse the mailing lists but > I > > have no idea what work needs to be done. Having > some > > indication of work that a developer might like to > do > > may be 50% of the process in getting them > involved. > > Otherwise, how does someone get involved? > > > > leouser > > > > --- Walter Chang <cha...@gm...> wrote: > > > > > no...i certainly hope not!! > > > > > > We were just metioning the possibility of a > > > developer handover so new > > > developers can get up to speed more easily :) > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/28/06, Leo User <leo...@ya...> > wrote: > > > > Are Frank and Samuele stepping out of the > picture? > > > I > > > > must have missed that one! :D > > > > > > > > leouser > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Simplicity--the art of maximizing the amount > > > of work not done--is essential. > > > from: > http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a > > > groundbreaking scripting language > > > that extends applications into web and mobile > media. > > > Attend the live webcast > > > and join the prime developer group breaking into > > > this new coding territory! > > > > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid0944&bid$1720&dat1642 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Jython-users mailing list > > > Jyt...@li... > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a > groundbreaking scripting language > > that extends applications into web and mobile > media. Attend the live webcast > > and join the prime developer group breaking into > this new coding territory! > > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=110944&bid=241720&dat=121642 > > _______________________________________________ > > Jython-dev mailing list > > Jyt...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-dev > > > > > -- > Simplicity--the art of maximizing the amount > of work not done--is essential. > from: http://www.agilemanifesto.org/principles.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a > groundbreaking scripting language > that extends applications into web and mobile media. > Attend the live webcast > and join the prime developer group breaking into > this new coding territory! > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid0944&bid$1720&dat1642 > _______________________________________________ > Jython-users mailing list > Jyt...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com |
From: Frank W. <fwi...@gm...> - 2006-03-29 15:38:33
|
On 3/28/06, Walter Chang <cha...@gm...> wrote: > That's a great idea...(I wasn't even aware that java.net had such a thing= !) > We should definately put this in the "plan" that we that will > eventually form (right Frank?) Some sort of roadmap is a good idea, I may put one up as part of the final website mockup if I have time. -Frank |