jazzplusplus-devel

[jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt

[Pete S. <pst...@ve...>]

RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
RV> Hi Pete,
RV>
RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
RV> didn't prompt for a configuration file, but it found one
RV> in my home directory. I'm not sure it is the correct
RV> jazz.cfg though. (attached)

Try renaming it.

RV> When I execute from the TestInstall it does open a
RV> window and a midi file is visible there. It doesn't
RV> play though. It only makes a few low cello-like
RV> sounds...about the first two bars... and then the
RV> curser stops and advances no further. In another
RV> window I have an alsaconnect gui...which does not
RV> actually see jazz++.

Could you update your source tree and try it again?

RV> I connect my Yamaha ES8 keyboard to a UX16 usb
RV> connector which is configured with alsaconnectgui.
RV> Usually I can use the keyboard to connect with a
RV> software synth or I can use Rosegarden to drive
RV> using the alsa connectivity. Anyway Jazz++ doesn't
RV> appear to be recognized by alsa. It doesn't show
RV> up in the alsaconnect gui.
RV>
RV> Rosegarden complains every time I start it that the
RV> 'system timer resolution is too low'. I know I need
RV> to find a RT kernel, but I've been too cautious to
RV> try one yet. Soon. That's why I need to be able to
RV> connect to an external device or to a soft synth.
RV>
RV> Here are results for the menus.
RV>
RV> The 'preferences' on the file menu looks to be a stub.

Correct.

RV> I didn't get far enough along to try the edit functions.

Event selection is a work in progress and isn't integrated with window 
scrolling, so this could be problematic.

RV> The metronome causes an immediate segmentation fault
RV> and a hard crash.

Do you mean editing the metronome or trying to turn it on?

RV> The Jazz++ harmony window looks nice. If I right click
RV> on the various chord buttons they play with a guitar-like
RV> sound. I have Jazz++ set up as a GM synth. I can see the
RV> ux16 and click on it, but it doesn't do anything.
RV>
RV> The audio menu seems to be all stubs. Is that right ?

That is correct.

RV> Help menus are unpopulated. Probably I missed the 'make'
RV> command for the documentation (?)

This is not implemented, but we are working on it.

RV> I'm attaching the config.log for your consideration.
RV>
RV> Hope this is helpful for you. If you let me know what
RV> I can do to fix it, I'll try again.
RV>
RV> Bob

Thanks for trying this with the code in such a preliminary state.  I'm 
just trying to get a MIDI file loading and playing on all platforms at 
this point.

Try the suggestions above...

1. Update the code and rebuild.  You can copy the new jazz binary over 
the one in TestInstall/bin.
2. Rename the config file in your home directory so it isn't used.
3. Make sure the .alsa_input_device and the .alsa_output_device entries 
in TestInstall/share/Jazz++/jazz.cfg are set to -1 so you will be 
prompted for input and output devices.
4. Run the version in TestInstall/bin.

Let us know how it goes.
Pete

Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

----------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700
> Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
> 
> RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
> RV> Hi Pete,
> RV>
> RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
> RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
> RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
<>

> Thanks for trying this with the code in such a preliminary state.  I'm 
> just trying to get a MIDI file loading and playing on all platforms at 
> this point.
> 
> Try the suggestions above...
> 
> 1. Update the code and rebuild.  You can copy the new jazz binary over 
> the one in TestInstall/bin.
> 2. Rename the config file in your home directory so it isn't used.
> 3. Make sure the .alsa_input_device and the .alsa_output_device entries 
> in TestInstall/share/Jazz++/jazz.cfg are set to -1 so you will be 
> prompted for input and output devices.
> 4. Run the version in TestInstall/bin.
> 
> Let us know how it goes.

Hmmm....one of my house-mates has a Debian Etch installation on
ix86 and it has an emu10k1 fitted to it, so I might actually try latest
against his hardware/Etch here later to compare results....

Regards,

Donald B


_________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt

[Robert V. <vo...@ct...>]

False alarm. Getting the cfg file out of my home directory changed
everything. First it opened a dialog that allowed me to specify the
device environment, then I was happy to see that the sequence is now
working, and the metronome no longer hangs...although I can't really
hear the metronome yet. 

Sounds good.

Is the reccord button implemented ?

Bob


On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 06:49 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700
> > Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
> > 
> > RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
> > RV> Hi Pete,
> > RV>
> > RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
> > RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
> > RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
> <>
> 
> > Thanks for trying this with the code in such a preliminary state.  I'm 
> > just trying to get a MIDI file loading and playing on all platforms at 
> > this point.
> > 
> > Try the suggestions above...
> > 
> > 1. Update the code and rebuild.  You can copy the new jazz binary over 
> > the one in TestInstall/bin.
> > 2. Rename the config file in your home directory so it isn't used.
> > 3. Make sure the .alsa_input_device and the .alsa_output_device entries 
> > in TestInstall/share/Jazz++/jazz.cfg are set to -1 so you will be 
> > prompted for input and output devices.
> > 4. Run the version in TestInstall/bin.
> > 
> > Let us know how it goes.
> 
> Hmmm....one of my house-mates has a Debian Etch installation on
> ix86 and it has an emu10k1 fitted to it, so I might actually try latest
> against his hardware/Etch here later to compare results....
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Donald B
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt

[Pete S. <pst...@gm...>]

RV = Robert Vogel
RV>>> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch
RV>>> stable system. It looked ok throughout the
RV>>> build process, and it produced an executable.
RV>>> When I tried opening the executable, it...
<snip>

PS = Pete Stieber
PS>> Thanks for trying this with the code in such a
PS>> preliminary state.  I'm just trying to get a
PS>> MIDI file loading and playing on all platforms at
PS>> this point.
PS>>
PS>> Try this...
PS>>
PS>> 1. Update the code and rebuild.  You can copy the new
PS>> jazz binary over the one in TestInstall/bin.
PS>> 2. Rename the config file in your home directory so
PS>> it isn't used.
PS>> 3. Make sure the .alsa_input_device and the
PS>> .alsa_output_device entries in
PS>> TestInstall/share/Jazz++/jazz.cfg are set to -1 so
PS>> you will be prompted for input and output
PS>> devices.
PS>> 4. Run the version in TestInstall/bin.
PS>>
PS>> Let us know how it goes.

RV> False alarm. Getting the cfg file out of my home
RV> directory changed everything. First it opened a
RV> dialog that allowed me to specify the device
RV> environment, then I was happy to see that the
RV> sequence is now working, and the metronome no
RV> longer hangs...although I can't really hear
RV> the metronome yet.

I am able to hear it on the Windows box I'm working on at the moment. 
User the "Settings | Metronome..." menu entry to bring up the Metronome 
Dialog and set the velocity to 127, and try different drum kit elements.

RV> Sounds good.

Excellent!

RV> Is the record button implemented ?

Not yet.  I have to get event and track selection working first.  I've 
started on event selection first, but it doesn't understand the current 
scrolling mechanism.

You can tell what I'm working on by monitoring the commit messages via

https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=jazzplusplus-updates

to subscribe visit

https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jazzplusplus-updates

Bob, I know you are already subscribed, but I couldn't resist the chance 
to advertise the updates list ;-)

Thanks for testing,
Pete

[jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

----------------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700


>From thread ;


> Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
> 
> RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
> RV> Hi Pete,

> RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
> RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
> RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
> RV> didn't prompt for a configuration file, but it found one
> RV> in my home directory. I'm not sure it is the correct
> RV> jazz.cfg though. (attached)



> RV>
> RV> Rosegarden complains every time I start it that the
> RV> 'system timer resolution is too low'. I know I need
> RV> to find a RT kernel, but I've been too cautious to
> RV> try one yet. Soon. That's why I need to be able to
> RV> connect to an external device or to a soft synth.
> RV>


Thanks Robert, you've pointed out something we all know
is a bit of an issue with linux. This really bites too when
considering so called 'realtime' software applications, and
timing sensitive transports like MIDI with linux.

Here's my thoughts and current experience with things
smelling of herring...

Whether Robert really needs to 'find' a  'RT' kernel is
probably up for debate. I mean...I haven't looked lately
but patched&hacked RT kernels are out there, so are 
the patches needed to compile your own, but there is
SO MUCH dated and old documentation out there,
it's not surprising to find comments like this.

There's a lot of the same out there. I actually know
rosegarden (as a piece of software), and I'm also
familiar with that runtime complaint about timer
resolution. Old documentation leads people into 
believing they need an RT kernel - perhaps they do
in certain situations - but most people do not.

What they need to do instead, is reconfigure their
linux source tree, recompile, install, and reboot to
the new kernel. Compiling Jazz++ from svn is a 
doddle for most people compared to a kernel rebuild.

In the configuration phase, they need to set
the kernel timer resolution to 1000Hz. It can also
matter (performance wise) which pre-emption model
 is selected, and what task-scheduling is selected. Or 
even how powerful (or not) their hardware is.... 

It's a minefield -- depending on just which linux distro
people are using, determines exactly which kernel
options were selected and configured in the 'standard'
kernel build. Also, just how easy it might be for people
to fix things themselves largely depends on which
linux distribution they use as much as it does on their
own skills or the instructions they might be following.


I don't want to write yet another kernel howto - I am
prepared to document this issue pretty much like I do 
here, pointing out the issues, giving out clues, but just
because of the large disparity and possible difference
between one linux distro compared to another, the user
is very much  largely on their own with that one.

I'm just wondering if something more can be done about it
...or nothing at all....and I just somehow get the feeling, 
someday this will bite us all....

Regards,

Donald B




_________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[Robert V. <vo...@ct...>]

On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 12:13 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700
> 
> 
> >From thread ;
> 
> 
> > Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
> > 
> > RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
> > RV> Hi Pete,
> 
> > RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
> > RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
> > RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
> > RV> didn't prompt for a configuration file, but it found one
> > RV> in my home directory. I'm not sure it is the correct
> > RV> jazz.cfg though. (attached)
> 
> 
> 
> > RV>
> > RV> Rosegarden complains every time I start it that the
> > RV> 'system timer resolution is too low'. I know I need
> > RV> to find a RT kernel, but I've been too cautious to
> > RV> try one yet. Soon. That's why I need to be able to
> > RV> connect to an external device or to a soft synth.
> > RV>
> 
> 
> Thanks Robert, you've pointed out something we all know
> is a bit of an issue with linux. This really bites too when
> considering so called 'realtime' software applications, and
> timing sensitive transports like MIDI with linux.
> 
> Here's my thoughts and current experience with things
> smelling of herring...
> 
> Whether Robert really needs to 'find' a  'RT' kernel is
> probably up for debate. I mean...I haven't looked lately
> but patched&hacked RT kernels are out there, so are 
> the patches needed to compile your own, but there is
> SO MUCH dated and old documentation out there,
> it's not surprising to find comments like this.
> 
> There's a lot of the same out there. I actually know
> rosegarden (as a piece of software), and I'm also
> familiar with that runtime complaint about timer
> resolution. Old documentation leads people into 
> believing they need an RT kernel - perhaps they do
> in certain situations - but most people do not.
> 
> What they need to do instead, is reconfigure their
> linux source tree, recompile, install, and reboot to
> the new kernel. Compiling Jazz++ from svn is a 
> doddle for most people compared to a kernel rebuild.
> 
> In the configuration phase, they need to set
> the kernel timer resolution to 1000Hz. It can also
> matter (performance wise) which pre-emption model
>  is selected, and what task-scheduling is selected. Or 
> even how powerful (or not) their hardware is.... 
> 
> It's a minefield -- depending on just which linux distro
> people are using, determines exactly which kernel
> options were selected and configured in the 'standard'
> kernel build. Also, just how easy it might be for people
> to fix things themselves largely depends on which
> linux distribution they use as much as it does on their
> own skills or the instructions they might be following.
> 
> 
> I don't want to write yet another kernel howto - I am
> prepared to document this issue pretty much like I do 
> here, pointing out the issues, giving out clues, but just
> because of the large disparity and possible difference
> between one linux distro compared to another, the user
> is very much  largely on their own with that one.
> 
> I'm just wondering if something more can be done about it
> ...or nothing at all....and I just somehow get the feeling, 
> someday this will bite us all....
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Donald B
> 
Thanks for your note Donald. 

I think my version of this problem should belong to Debian. If they
accept a package into a stable version of thier distro, it should run
with the standard kernel...or they could offer a properly configured
one.

On the other hand, I can drive an external device or a software synth
with Rosegarden, so I don't feel that I'm missing much functionality
even without the RT kernel.

Can anyone tell me that it is worth the trouble in terms of sound
quality to patch the kernel ? 

Bob 


> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[D.B. M. <db...@ho...>]

Greetings,

----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:32:28 -0400
> Subject: Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel -	observed	trends
> 
> On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 12:13 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:10:47 -0700
>> 
>> 
>>>From thread ;
>> 
>> 
>>> Subject: [jazzplusplus-devel] Debian Build and Run Attempt
>>> 
>>> RV = Robert Vogel wrote me on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:14:04 -0400
>>> RV> Hi Pete,
>> 
>>> RV> I tried compiling Jazz++ on my Debian Etch stable system.
>>> RV> It looked ok throughout the build process, and it produced
>>> RV> an executable. When I tried opening the executable, it
>>> RV> didn't prompt for a configuration file, but it found one
>>> RV> in my home directory. I'm not sure it is the correct
>>> RV> jazz.cfg though. (attached)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> RV>
>>> RV> Rosegarden complains every time I start it that the
>>> RV> 'system timer resolution is too low'. I know I need
>>> RV> to find a RT kernel, but I've been too cautious to
>>> RV> try one yet. Soon. That's why I need to be able to
>>> RV> connect to an external device or to a soft synth.
>>> RV>
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks Robert, you've pointed out something we all know
>> is a bit of an issue with linux. This really bites too when
>> considering so called 'realtime' software applications, and
>> timing sensitive transports like MIDI with linux.
>> 
>> Here's my thoughts and current experience with things
>> smelling of herring...
>> 
>> Whether Robert really needs to 'find' a  'RT' kernel is
>> probably up for debate. I mean...I haven't looked lately
>> but patched&hacked RT kernels are out there, so are 
>> the patches needed to compile your own, but there is
>> SO MUCH dated and old documentation out there,
>> it's not surprising to find comments like this.
>> 
>> There's a lot of the same out there. I actually know
>> rosegarden (as a piece of software), and I'm also
>> familiar with that runtime complaint about timer
>> resolution. Old documentation leads people into 
>> believing they need an RT kernel - perhaps they do
>> in certain situations - but most people do not.
>> 
>> What they need to do instead, is reconfigure their
>> linux source tree, recompile, install, and reboot to
>> the new kernel. Compiling Jazz++ from svn is a 
>> doddle for most people compared to a kernel rebuild.
>> 
>> In the configuration phase, they need to set
>> the kernel timer resolution to 1000Hz. It can also
>> matter (performance wise) which pre-emption model
>>  is selected, and what task-scheduling is selected. Or 
>> even how powerful (or not) their hardware is.... 
>> 
>> It's a minefield -- depending on just which linux distro
>> people are using, determines exactly which kernel
>> options were selected and configured in the 'standard'
>> kernel build. Also, just how easy it might be for people
>> to fix things themselves largely depends on which
>> linux distribution they use as much as it does on their
>> own skills or the instructions they might be following.
>> 
>> 
>> I don't want to write yet another kernel howto - I am
>> prepared to document this issue pretty much like I do 
>> here, pointing out the issues, giving out clues, but just
>> because of the large disparity and possible difference
>> between one linux distro compared to another, the user
>> is very much  largely on their own with that one.
>> 
>> I'm just wondering if something more can be done about it
>> ...or nothing at all....and I just somehow get the feeling, 
>> someday this will bite us all....
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Donald B
>> 
> Thanks for your note Donald. 
> 
> I think my version of this problem should belong to Debian. If they
> accept a package into a stable version of thier distro, it should run
> with the standard kernel...or they could offer a properly configured
> one.

I actually had the same thought....and really, it's one of the few sane
thoughts one can have regarding this issue.  I think the above should
be --

 'if *any* distribution includes a package in the standard distribution
which requires a low-latency or 'real time' kernel to work properly, then
the distribution vendors should make available a binary kernel package
for people who use such software to easily upgrade their kernel'

Something like that is what I'm hoping will come to pass 'all of it's own
accord'....but I'm a bit of a dreamer ;-)  

This isn't happening yet though, and it'll be (mostly) up to the users
of a particular distribution to lobby their distro's development team
to get such a thing happening at a distro level....

> 
> On the other hand, I can drive an external device or a software synth
> with Rosegarden, so I don't feel that I'm missing much functionality
> even without the RT kernel.
> 
> Can anyone tell me that it is worth the trouble in terms of sound
> quality to patch the kernel ? 
> 
> Bob 

Okay....here's my conclusions about what you ask here above ;

1. As Pete mentioned in a previous posting, the current stage
of development with Jazz++ is trying to get the code stable
and running on all 3 currently supported platforms, and have it
able to replay a .mid file properly in all 3 cases.  (pun ;)
 
2.  If...like Bob here....you are trying to use Jazz++ with an
externally connected MIDI instrument, and you discover it
works, then this support in Jazz++ is incidental at the moment.
We of course want to hear about such incidental success stories
using the current version of Jazz++ with externally connected
MIDI devices, however I am of the belief that problems (if any)
found regarding the use of Jazz++ in this manner, are the focus
of future developmental work with Jazz++....

3. Current development testing is being done using softsynths.

//relative to the above three points in caveat

A> 'Sound quality' (by itself) is;

-determined by the sound quality being produced by either the
external MIDI instrument or the 'internal' softsynth of the platform 
being used.

B> -replay- quality is quite a different thing, because it involves 
timing (of the notes being played)...in this case ;

-- form a mental picture : you are replaying a .mid file using Jazz++
with an externally connected MIDI device. A passage of the score 
is quite complex, involving many percussive voices, bass lines, the
whole works...and when replaying this passage you notice the 
external MIDI instrument 'dropping notes' or else 'dropping voices'
as it moves through the score.

These are timing issues that will affect the sound quality of the
file being replayed, because certain notes, events, or voices aren't
being reproduced by the external MIDI instrument. There can be
a number of causes responsible for this sort of thing, and *one* of
them is it's because your (linux) kernel isn't configured to handle
this sort of 'real time' duty.

C> In the case of replaying via softsynth (on linux), latencies in
the kernel really *do* affect the sound quality and the timing issues.

-- the timing issues will manifest themselves in more or less the 
exact same way as described above for external MIDI instruments.

-- the sound quality of the softsynth output really sounds horrid
if your computer/linux kernel isn't quick enough. The noise produced
is best described as 'a harsh sound akin to static' and if you hear it
once you'll always remember  it. (not kindly, but you'll instantly
recognize what you're hearing ;-). 


I think what I eventually might do, is put some sound files up
on our site, which **audibly** demonstrate to users artifacts
of sound quality directly related to linux kernel latency issues.

That'd be about the best thing to do...IMHO....to help users
conclude whether or not they need a better (faster) kernel 
for their setup. Hope this helps...

Regards,

Donald B








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Re: [jazzplusplus-devel] Thoughts about the linux kernel - observed trends

[Robert V. <vo...@ct...>]

On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 02:03 +0000, D.B. Moore wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
(snip)
> 
> 
> I think what I eventually might do, is put some sound files up
> on our site, which **audibly** demonstrate to users artifacts
> of sound quality directly related to linux kernel latency issues.
> 
> That'd be about the best thing to do...IMHO....to help users
> conclude whether or not they need a better (faster) kernel 
> for their setup. Hope this helps...
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Donald B
> 
> 

I tried Jazz++ a couple of ways, both quite good:

* my ux16 USB midi interface hitches to a Motif ES8 which together has
excellent sound quality.

* The software synth I like is ZynAddSubFX produces its own pleasing
sound. I use Hydrogen for its drum set. Rosegarden does this, and I
think Jazz++ can too. (I didn't run Hydrogen from it yet.)

Probably I need to modify the kernel to hear how good the native midi
is. 



> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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