Re: [Java-gnome-developer] JVM benchmarks: kaffe takes the cake

[Elias M. <el...@al...>]

Tiago Cogumbreiro wrote:

> On Qua, 2003-11-12 at 15:50, Elias Martenson wrote:
 >
>>I find this to be a huge issue. I'd much rather place a dependency on a 
>>VM and then be able to distribute the same PRM, DEB or whatever archive 
>>to everybody. The user would still never have to bother about the VM.
> 
> Well, when i think of desktop users i think of lazy ones, and IMO
> installing the sun's java vm is more difficult then loading a shared lib
> (libgcj.so), yet this is a problem for distribution only. Don't forget
> that on linux usually java is not installed by default, it's always
> thought of a big extra.

Yet applications such as PostgreSQL and 3 billion useless(:-)) KDE 
libraries are usually installed on a standard Linux distribution and 
it's not considered being a "big" extra.

In my mind, what needs to be done is to lobby for the inclusing of VM's 
on the linux distributions. apt-based distros such as debian and fedors 
shouldn't be a problem at all technically, since a Java-GNOME app can 
include the dependencies on it and it will get downloaded automatically.

>>I don't think one problem (allergic users) should be solved by 
>>introducing another (platform dependency and neutering the Java platform).
> 
> I don't think it's yet another dependency, JVM is switched by a shared
> lib, you lose one you gain another.

No, the big difference is that every single Java-GNOME app can be 
distributed in a platform _indepdendent_ form. This is an anormous 
advantage in my opinion.

>>>also there's the Swing
>>>factor which gives a bit of a bad impression in all java programs that
>>>they are slugish.
>>
>>Solved with Java-GNOME. That's why we're here, isn't it? :-)
> 
> My point was that swing applications being slugish makes some users
> think that _all_ java aplications are slugish.

Of course. The funny thing is that the same people happily run various 
graphical applications written in for example Python and Perl without 
any complaints about speed. This is an education issue really. Prove a 
point, preferably using a killer app. That way you can tell them: "did 
you know that this app actually runs in the Java VM? It's not slow, is it?"

>>>This way when they open up our java-gnome program
>>>they'll think it's an ordinary C/Gnome program.
>>
>>My Java-GNOME test applications look exactly like any GNOME application 
>>written in C, and it runs in the Sun VM. Exactly what is the problem?
> 
> java -Djava.library.path=/usr/lib/jni -classpath
> /usr/lib/java/gnome.jar:/usr/lib/java/gtk.jar org.foo.MyCoolClass

This would look like so, on a properly installed system:

     java -jar myapp.jar

> I know that shell scripts soulve this very gracefully, but again, when
> natively compiled you just don't have to think about yet another
> problem, and that's basicly the difference between running a C app and a
> Java app.

A shellscript wrapping the above command is prefectly adequate for me. 
The screllscript is platform independent too, in the context of Java-GNOME.

>>Sorry for sounding a bit harsh. I usually try to avoid that on public 
>>forums but this is an issue that I care a lot about.
> 
> I don't think that you were harsh :) And i care alot about this topic so
> i find this discussion very productive ;)

Thank you. :-)

Elias