java-gnome-developer

[Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[R. A. R. D. <riv...@ya...>]

Hello.

I'm very new to the project. In fact I'm still in the middle of the
tutorial.

I'm also a recent convert from Windows. I have used Linux from time to
time but now I want to get more involved with it. I have experience
developping applications in Java using Swing as the UI, but I think
GNOME integration is the best option if I want to develop applications
in Java that can be accepted by the Linux community, so that's the main
reason why I'm joining this project.

I'll say here what I have installed, maybe this helps to explain the
rest of this mail.

Arch: Athlon
OS: RedHat Fedora Core 1
Java: Sun J2SDK 1.4.2_02

I want to comment with the rest of the people things that maybe you see
as less important, but I think can help to start:

1. path of the files installed.
Currently the libs are generated in /usr/local/lib. Why it's not
installed in /usr/lib? I know I can change it with an argument to
configure, but isn't /usr/lib more standard? At least I don't have to
export LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
Also the jars are installed in /usr/local/share/java-gnome. I don't
know any standard folder for jars, but gcj installs it's jar in
/usr/share/java. Maybe it's a more logical path.

2. names of libraries
Current lib names are libGNOMEJava, libGTKJava and libGladeJava.
Looking at system libraries naming conventions, specially: libgnome,
libgnome-desktop, libgtk or libglade-gnome I think should be better to
name them libgnome-java, libgtk-java, libglade-java and can continue
with libgnomeprint-java, libgtkhtml-java and hopefully much much more
libs :-). Currently names don't look like the mayority of the installed
libs.

3. distribution format
I think having rpms and other distribution formats, basically for
binary distribution, can help finding testers. For example, when I see
an RPM my first felling is: if anything goes wrong, at least I know an
easy way to uninstall all this. I know that an install method is
included in the current distribution format, but think in new people
who want to find the easy way to begin using the libs. Also I prefer to
download one RPM for binaries and one for sources and documentation. to
have things more organized.
In fact if someone gives me the specs files I can try to build the rpms
for new versions, I don't know jet how to create rpms. It's in my list,
but not near top.

Also I have found some things in the tutorial that I want to comment,
but I think it's better to talk about the tutorial in other mail, when
I finnish reading it.

Hope this helps to make this lib a little little better.

regards,
Rivas.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Mark H. <mh...@ca...>]

Hello,
  Thanks for trying java-gnome. Hoe you like it.

On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 02:24:30AM -0800, R. A. Rivas Diaz wrote:
> 1. path of the files installed.
> Currently the libs are generated in /usr/local/lib. Why it's not
> installed in /usr/lib? 
/usr/lib is for files installed by the distribution you are using.
/usr/local is for things you installed separately. It is part of the
FHS, I think.
In Debian java policy, java-gnome libs are placed in /usr/lib/jni/

> Also the jars are installed in /usr/local/share/java-gnome. I don't
> know any standard folder for jars, but gcj installs it's jar in
> /usr/share/java. Maybe it's a more logical path.
Again, I think the chosen directory is the best. 

 
> 3. distribution format
> I think having rpms and other distribution formats, basically for
> binary distribution, can help finding testers. For example, when I see
Java-gnome is available in the main Debian distribution. rpms are
available and will be on the main java-gnome website (or at least linked
from there) very soon.

> Also I have found some things in the tutorial that I want to comment,
> but I think it's better to talk about the tutorial in other mail, when
> I finnish reading it.
Looking forward to hearing your comments.


-- 
  .''`. Mark Howard
 : :' :
 `. `'  http://www.tildemh.com 
   `-   mh...@de... | mh...@ti... | mh...@ca... 

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Elias M. <el...@al...>]

l=C3=B6r 2003-11-15 klockan 11.57 skrev Mark Howard:

> > Also the jars are installed in /usr/local/share/java-gnome. I don't
> > know any standard folder for jars, but gcj installs it's jar in
> > /usr/share/java. Maybe it's a more logical path.
> Again, I think the chosen directory is the best.=20

If the Java packages were standardised in any way, the logical place to
put them would be $JAVA_HOME/jre/lib/ext

I'm hoping that these things will be standardised some time in the
future.

Elias

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[R. A. R. D. <riv...@ya...>]

--- Mark Howard <mh...@ca...> wrote:
> Hello,
>   Thanks for trying java-gnome. Hoe you like it.
> 
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 02:24:30AM -0800, R. A. Rivas Diaz wrote:
> > 1. path of the files installed.
> > Currently the libs are generated in /usr/local/lib. Why it's not
> > installed in /usr/lib? 
> /usr/lib is for files installed by the distribution you are using.
> /usr/local is for things you installed separately. It is part of the
> FHS, I think.
> In Debian java policy, java-gnome libs are placed in /usr/lib/jni/
> 
I don't like this libraries be treated as "diferent" things. I really
prefer them to be on the same folder as the others, but obviously thats
only my preference. I can live with that if this folder is searched by
default.

> > Also the jars are installed in /usr/local/share/java-gnome. I don't
> > know any standard folder for jars, but gcj installs it's jar in
> > /usr/share/java. Maybe it's a more logical path.
> Again, I think the chosen directory is the best. 
> 
My point for proposing a centralized folder, is that this jars are like
system libraries, not jars usable for only one application. If they
where only used for a "java-gnome" application, for me is logical that
place.
Maybe is OK to put them on a specific place while there is no standard,
but I think that "system" jars should be on a unique folder, like libs
are on a unique folder.
Maybe I should propose /usr/jar or /usr/local/jar instead of
/usr/lib/java.

>  
> > 3. distribution format
> > I think having rpms and other distribution formats, basically for
> > binary distribution, can help finding testers. For example, when I
> see
> Java-gnome is available in the main Debian distribution. rpms are
> available and will be on the main java-gnome website (or at least
> linked
> from there) very soon.
> 
OK
And what about the names for the libraries?

rivas


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Luca De R. <pie...@li...>]

Il sab, 2003-11-15 alle 21:40, R. A. Rivas Diaz ha scritto:
> --- Mark Howard <mh...@ca...> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >   Thanks for trying java-gnome. Hoe you like it.
> > 
> > On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 02:24:30AM -0800, R. A. Rivas Diaz wrote:
> > > 1. path of the files installed.
> > > Currently the libs are generated in /usr/local/lib. Why it's not
> > > installed in /usr/lib? 
> > /usr/lib is for files installed by the distribution you are using.
> > /usr/local is for things you installed separately. It is part of the
> > FHS, I think.
> > In Debian java policy, java-gnome libs are placed in /usr/lib/jni/
> > 
> I don't like this libraries be treated as "diferent" things. I really
> prefer them to be on the same folder as the others, but obviously thats
> only my preference. I can live with that if this folder is searched by
> default.
> 
> > > Also the jars are installed in /usr/local/share/java-gnome. I don't
> > > know any standard folder for jars, but gcj installs it's jar in
> > > /usr/share/java. Maybe it's a more logical path.
> > Again, I think the chosen directory is the best. 
> > 
> My point for proposing a centralized folder, is that this jars are like
> system libraries, not jars usable for only one application. If they
> where only used for a "java-gnome" application, for me is logical that
> place.
> Maybe is OK to put them on a specific place while there is no standard,
> but I think that "system" jars should be on a unique folder, like libs
> are on a unique folder.
> Maybe I should propose /usr/jar or /usr/local/jar instead of
> /usr/lib/java.
Again, why should jars be treated like something special?
I think $DATADIR/java-gnome it' the right place.
The only one that worths consideration is $DATADIR/java as other
libraries, e.g. ant, install jars there.

> 
> >  
> > > 3. distribution format
> > > I think having rpms and other distribution formats, basically for
> > > binary distribution, can help finding testers. For example, when I
> > see
> > Java-gnome is available in the main Debian distribution. rpms are
> > available and will be on the main java-gnome website (or at least
> > linked
> > from there) very soon.
> > 
> OK
> And what about the names for the libraries?
Now we have:
/usr/lib/libGNOMEJAR.so
/usr/lib/libGNOMEJar.so.0.8.1
/usr/lib/libGNOMEJava.so
/usr/lib/libGNOMEJava.so.0.8.1
/usr/lib/libGTKJAR.so
/usr/lib/libGTKJar.so.0.8.1
/usr/lib/libGTKJava.so
/usr/lib/libGTKJava.so.0.8.1
/usr/lib/libGladeJAR.so
/usr/lib/libGladeJar.so.0.8.1
/usr/lib/libGladeJava.so
/usr/lib/libGladeJava.so.0.8.1

Why do we have JAR in capitals?
I vote to put all the names like: libGnomeJava, libGnomeJar, libGtkJava,
libGtkJar, libGladeJava, libGladeJar so we'll avoid all this caps
confusion. Also it doesn't seem correct to me to have libGNOMEJava while
on the other hand libGladeJava. Don't you see this as a discrepancy?

Ciao,
Luca.
-- 
Luca De Rugeriis <pie...@li...>

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Luca De R. <pie...@li...>]

Il sab, 2003-11-15 alle 11:57, Mark Howard ha scritto:
> /usr/lib is for files installed by the distribution you are using.
> /usr/local is for things you installed separately. It is part of the
> FHS, I think.
> In Debian java policy, java-gnome libs are placed in /usr/lib/jni/
Right, for FHS prefix is /usr/local, however Redhat based distributions
use /usr. (others use something else...)
On Redhat I like to package everything and put in /usr, I don't like
have a separated /usr/local tree. However is very legitimate to default
to /usr/local for java-gnome installation as many other source packages
do. If you want to change prefix it's as simple as passing
--prefix=<your prefix here> to ./configure.


> > Also the jars are installed in /usr/local/share/java-gnome. I don't
> > know any standard folder for jars, but gcj installs it's jar in
> > /usr/share/java. Maybe it's a more logical path.
> Again, I think the chosen directory is the best. 
Me too, but /usr/share/java maybe considered as the default directory
for jars to conform e.g. ant installation. However I don't understand
why jars needs a separated directory.
 
> > 3. distribution format
> > I think having rpms and other distribution formats, basically for
> > binary distribution, can help finding testers. For example, when I see
> Java-gnome is available in the main Debian distribution. rpms are
> available and will be on the main java-gnome website (or at least linked
> from there) very soon.
Jeffrey, are you awaiting the rpms from me ? As I said in the previous
"rpms" thread I would like to know some particulars. I'll repeat it
here:

Let me know if you want them recompiled for a given arch and which
package you want (and if it's better I'll send them privately). 
They are:

java-gnome-debuginfo-0.8.1-8.i686.rpm
java-gnome-javadoc-0.8.1-8.i686.rpm
java-gnome-0.8.1-8.i686.rpm
java-gnome-devel-0.8.1-8.i686.rpm
java-gnome-0.8.1-8.src.rpm

-- 
Luca De Rugeriis <pie...@li...>

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Elias M. <el...@al...>]

l=C3=B6r 2003-11-15 klockan 22.19 skrev Luca De Rugeriis:
> Il sab, 2003-11-15 alle 11:57, Mark Howard ha scritto:
> > /usr/lib is for files installed by the distribution you are using.
> > /usr/local is for things you installed separately. It is part of the
> > FHS, I think.
>
> > In Debian java policy, java-gnome libs are placed in /usr/lib/jni/
> Right, for FHS prefix is /usr/local, however Redhat based distributions
> use /usr. (others use something else...)
> On Redhat I like to package everything and put in /usr, I don't like
> have a separated /usr/local tree. However is very legitimate to default
> to /usr/local for java-gnome installation as many other source packages
> do. If you want to change prefix it's as simple as passing
> --prefix=3D<your prefix here> to ./configure.

Sorry if I'm thick, but as is stands the startups script needs to point
to where the libs reside? If different distributions put them in
differnt places we hav a problem.

The solution could be somehting like "java-gnome-conf" so that the
startup script starts the app using some call similar to:

    java -Djava.jni.path=3D`java-gnome-conf --jnipath` -classpath
`java-gnome-conf --classpath` -jar theapp.jar

Would this work?

Elias

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Mark H. <mh...@ca...>]

[following on from thread re placement of jni libs and jar files.
Original thread: 
]

In answer to the suggestion of having a java-gnome-conf script generated
at install time so that users of the library can determine where jni
files and jar files are located on the current distribution:

I think this is a bad idea - it adds unnecessary complexity. For
example, all native applications (non-java) choose to place all
libraries in /usr/lib -- they must have had similar discussions about
this a long time ago. Why should java be different?
I propose that jni libs should go in /usr/lib/jni (as is standard for
Debian) and JVMs should be modified to look in /usr/lib/jni and
/usr/local/lib/jni for jni libs. 

Debian-java have had similar discussions in the past (which I failed to
follow since I had too much real work on), so I'm CC'ing there in the
hope of advice. 

One question I do have with my proposal though is what happens if
/usr/lib/jni has both libgnome-java0.8 and libgnome-java0.9 - How does
the jvm currently choose? 

-- 
  .''`. Mark Howard
 : :' :
 `. `'  http://www.tildemh.com 
   `-   mh...@de... | mh...@ti... | mh...@ca... 

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Tiago C. <cog...@li...>]

On Dom, 2003-11-16 at 10:47, Mark Howard wrote:
> [following on from thread re placement of jni libs and jar files.
> Original thread: 
> ]
> 
> In answer to the suggestion of having a java-gnome-conf script generated
> at install time so that users of the library can determine where jni
> files and jar files are located on the current distribution:
> 
> I think this is a bad idea - it adds unnecessary complexity. For
> example, all native applications (non-java) choose to place all
> libraries in /usr/lib -- they must have had similar discussions about
> this a long time ago. Why should java be different?
> I propose that jni libs should go in /usr/lib/jni (as is standard for
> Debian) and JVMs should be modified to look in /usr/lib/jni and
> /usr/local/lib/jni for jni libs. 
> 
IMO since we are using /usr/lib/jni for the java-to-native libs we
should use /usr/lib/java for the jars, come to think of it python .py,
.pyc and .pyo files go to /usr/lib/pythonX.X (at least in debian) so i
think that java could use the same approach, yet thinking in that are
already used we could also stick to /usr/share/java

> Debian-java have had similar discussions in the past (which I failed to
> follow since I had too much real work on), so I'm CC'ing there in the
> hope of advice. 
> 
> One question I do have with my proposal though is what happens if
> /usr/lib/jni has both libgnome-java0.8 and libgnome-java0.9 - How does
> the jvm currently choose?
Why not:
ln -s libgnome-java0.8.so libgnome-java.so

Tiago

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Mark H. <mh...@ca...>]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 12:18:38PM -0100, Tiago Cogumbreiro wrote:
> > One question I do have with my proposal though is what happens if
> > /usr/lib/jni has both libgnome-java0.8 and libgnome-java0.9 - How does
> > the jvm currently choose?
> Why not:
> ln -s libgnome-java0.8.so libgnome-java.so

The reason I asked this was because sometimes you may want two versions
of java-gnome installed, in a similar way to how you may want gtk1.2 and
gtk2.2 installed. Some applications will want the 1.2 lib, others the
2.2 lib. Is there any way that the java application itself can specify
which one to use? Would it be sufficient to just have the correct jar in
the classpath?

-- 
  .''`. Mark Howard
 : :' :
 `. `'  http://www.tildemh.com 
   `-   mh...@de... | mh...@ti... | mh...@ca... 

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[R. A. R. D. <riv...@ya...>]

--- Mark Howard <mh...@ca...> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 12:18:38PM -0100, Tiago Cogumbreiro wrote:
> > > One question I do have with my proposal though is what happens if
> > > /usr/lib/jni has both libgnome-java0.8 and libgnome-java0.9 - How
> does
> > > the jvm currently choose?
> > Why not:
> > ln -s libgnome-java0.8.so libgnome-java.so
> 
> The reason I asked this was because sometimes you may want two
> versions
> of java-gnome installed, in a similar way to how you may want gtk1.2
> and
> gtk2.2 installed. Some applications will want the 1.2 lib, others the
> 2.2 lib. Is there any way that the java application itself can
> specify
> which one to use? Would it be sufficient to just have the correct jar
> in
> the classpath?
Eclipse SWT allows coexistence of more than one version in the same
system, and the way they handle it is including the version number in
the name of the library. For example, for the version 2.1.1 of eclipse
they used the build number 2135, and the native libraries are:
for linux/x86 they have:
libswt-gtk-2135.so
libswt-pi-gtk-2135.so
libswt-gnome-gtk-2135.so
for win32/x86 they have:
swt-win32-2135.dll
They have diferent implementations of swt for diferent platforms,
that's why they have also diferent names for native libraries, but
using this approach, the v0.8.1 of gnome-java could load
libgnome-java-0.8.1.so instead of libgnome-java.so.
If a user updates gnome-java, the jar and the native libs both are
updated, then the new jar v1.0 could load the new installed
libgnome-java-1.0.so and the user can have both versions of gnome-java.
The version used will depend on what jar the user references. If the
app references gnome-0.8.1.jar, it whill use v0.8.1, if the application
references gnome-1.0.jar, it will use v1.0, and if the application
references gnome.jar, the version depends on the soft link.

rivas.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

[Java-gnome-developer] Widget Mappings

[Andrew - D. <aj...@on...>]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,
Just wondering if there is a list of mappings from gtk widgets to what
we would use in java code, for example a gtkText to an Entry field?

Thanks
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQE/uAUEyheqWpsy0vsRAmp0AJ40gLwyAh9C2GLX0O5ytiQ1cgOIIQCfe/kc
k7fWeydZVu/x2S437fZbxkI=
=SRHb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Mark H. <mh...@ca...>]

sorry, forgot to add the link

Original thread: 
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=3466926&forum_id=5689


-- 
  .''`. Mark Howard
 : :' :
 `. `'  http://www.tildemh.com 
   `-   mh...@de... | mh...@ti... | mh...@ca... 

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Mark H. <mh...@ca...>]

On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 02:53:24PM +0100, Elias Martenson wrote:
> If the Java packages were standardised in any way, the logical place to
> put them would be $JAVA_HOME/jre/lib/ext

Sorry, I disagree completely.
Why should Java be treated differently to the rest of the Unix system?
What is $JAVA_HOME ? $SUN_JAVA_HOME? That's just ridiculous limiting a
system to one JVM.

-- 
  .''`. Mark Howard
 : :' :
 `. `'  http://www.tildemh.com 
   `-   mh...@de... | mh...@ti... | mh...@ca... 

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[Elias M. <el...@al...>]

l=C3=B6r 2003-11-15 klockan 15.12 skrev Mark Howard:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 02:53:24PM +0100, Elias Martenson wrote:
> > If the Java packages were standardised in any way, the logical place =
to
> > put them would be $JAVA_HOME/jre/lib/ext
>=20
> Sorry, I disagree completely.
> Why should Java be treated differently to the rest of the Unix system?
> What is $JAVA_HOME ? $SUN_JAVA_HOME? That's just ridiculous limiting a
> system to one JVM.

Hmm... yeah maybe you're right. But how do you make sure that the VM
always finds the GNOME libraries without having to add silly -D and
LD_LIBRARY_PATH parameters?

Elias

Re: [Java-gnome-developer] naming and distribution issues

[R. A. R. D. <riv...@ya...>]

--- Elias Martenson <el...@al...> wrote:
> lör 2003-11-15 klockan 15.12 skrev Mark Howard:
> > On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 02:53:24PM +0100, Elias Martenson wrote:
> > > If the Java packages were standardised in any way, the logical
> place to
> > > put them would be $JAVA_HOME/jre/lib/ext
> > 
> > Sorry, I disagree completely.
> > Why should Java be treated differently to the rest of the Unix
> system?
> > What is $JAVA_HOME ? $SUN_JAVA_HOME? That's just ridiculous
> limiting a
> > system to one JVM.
> 
> Hmm... yeah maybe you're right. But how do you make sure that the VM
> always finds the GNOME libraries without having to add silly -D and
> LD_LIBRARY_PATH parameters?
> 
I don't think as a good idea to put all java packages in
$JAVA_HOME/jre/lib/ext for some reasons:

1. Some times packages are incompatible between them, if I let the Java
VM load all, applications can break. For me that's the strong reason
for not to do that. I think libraries like jars should be into one
folder like system and application libraries, but each application must
select explicity which jars to use. That can ve achieved using
Class-Path attribute on the manifest.mf. A well integrated JavaVM
should look for packages relative to the application jar, then in
"common" folder like /usr/lib/java or equivalent. Meanwhile "launch
scripts" should add specific "system" jars to the classpath before
launching the app, or in this particular case (cause gnome only run on
unix/linux) directly putting the full path in Class-Path attribute.

2. I agree with the previous comment. Installation must not depend on
the JavaVM installed. In fact that's the point with java!

3. If the user have a JRE and not a full sdk that won't work either.

4. What will happen the day that the Java VM is part of the OS itself
and there is no $JAVA_HOME ? Java and OS integration is one thing I
hope to see some day.

rivas

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree