Thread: [Java-gnome-developer] Java-GNOME thoughts
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From: Elias M. <el...@al...> - 2003-11-06 22:50:56
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I'm pretty new to this mailing list, and I suspect that this has been discussed before. If so, I apologise. I have been working with Java for a very long time, almost since its inception, and I think Java-GNOME is on to something here. I feel that Java-GNOME is not a UI-toolkit for Java, but rather Java-GNOME making Java a language for GNOME. Or to put it in other words: You don't generally consider Java-GNOME as the primary UI for your Java app, but you should seriously consider Java as a language when developing a GNOME application. Now for my thoughts: Imagine I decided to write a new GNOME application that would be a candidate for inclusion in the GNOME distribution or GNOME Office for example. Now, how would I go about distributing it outside of the rather limited Java-GNOME community? Before the announcement that RedHat Linux were to become Fedora, there was rumours floating around that they were to include the JDK in the distribution. This would be amazing since it would provide us with a way to build RPM's of Java-GNOME application that any user could install and run. I assume these things has been discussed before, and I'm very interested in learning what you came up with. I know C and C++ pretty well, but I hate them. :-) Java is really the language I want to use. :-) Best regards Elias |
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From: Mark H. <mh...@ca...> - 2003-11-09 10:13:20
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On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 11:54:20PM +0100, Elias Martenson wrote: > GNOME Office for example. Now, how would I go about distributing it > outside of the rather limited Java-GNOME community? I disagree. The Java-GNOME community isn't limited and is getting bigger all the time. I can't speak for red hat, but java-gnome is definitely included in the main Debian repository, using free tools rather than other JVMs. -- .''`. Mark Howard : :' : `. `' http://www.tildemh.com `- mh...@de... | mh...@ti... | mh...@ca... |
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From: Elias M. <el...@al...> - 2003-11-09 11:31:42
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s=C3=B6n 2003-11-09 klockan 11.16 skrev Mark Howard: > On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 11:54:20PM +0100, Elias Martenson wrote: > > GNOME Office for example. Now, how would I go about distributing it > > outside of the rather limited Java-GNOME community? >=20 > I disagree. The Java-GNOME community isn't limited and is getting bigge= r > all the time. And a very good thing it is. But compared to the C-GNOME community, it's extremely small. > I can't speak for red hat, but java-gnome is definitely included in the > main Debian repository, using free tools rather than other JVMs. I certainly would like to be able to to distribute my application as foo-1.0-noarch.rpm, rather than a bunch of foo-1.0-i386.rpm, foo-1.0-ppc.rpm, etc... In order for this to work, you have to be able to set up dependencies to the VM. The Python-GNOME community can do this, why not us? You know what would be cool? If we got ourselves a killer app written using Java-GNOME. An app everybody wants. It would be beneficial for both the Linux, GNOME, and Java communities on so many levels. Let's hope it happens. Elias |
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From: ACJT <ac...@on...> - 2003-11-09 11:40:15
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Elias Martenson wrote: | | You know what would be cool? If we got ourselves a killer app | written using Java-GNOME. An app everybody wants. It would be | beneficial for both the Linux, GNOME, and Java communities on so | many levels. Let's hope it happens. | | Elias I agree with this, and to make it excellent for the project, I think getting the application to exist as part of the gnome distribution would be fantastic and prove that it really is worthwhile and useful. But what application is needed?? This is the big question, and I can't think of anything! The only annoying thing I ever had was setting up my printer, however this is now almost OK because of the gnome-cups-printmgr. So I have no idea!! - -- [A n d r e w] - ------|------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/rij92AKtqeH2FeQRArUSAJ4zebZWldQ0JxKtQOrVTFi8xZMvzQCZATGL AcgFnN3GOcjxHLrIJgVrF2E= =1xfE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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From: Elias M. <el...@al...> - 2003-11-09 12:45:52
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s=C3=B6n 2003-11-09 klockan 12.46 skrev ACJT: > I agree with this, and to make it excellent for the project, I think > getting the application to exist as part of the gnome distribution > would be fantastic and prove that it really is worthwhile and useful. > But what application is needed?? This is the big question, and I can't > think of anything! The only annoying thing I ever had was setting up > my printer, however this is now almost OK because of the > gnome-cups-printmgr. So I have no idea!! True. It really does feel like everything has been done now has it? :-) It's not like it's possible to just sit and thenk of the next big killer app to make. However, most likely it will be an app that leverages the enormous amounts of libraries and tools already available for Java. Want to make a new FTP client? I think I could top gFTP in a matter of days by leveraging the enterprisedt FTP client library. If you want to make an RSS reader, you could do that extremely quickly too since we have it all already, just need to slap a GUI on top of it. I've also considered making a better "todo" application. A smal app that sits in the panel and lets to easily keep track of everything that I should do (need panel support for this one). So, what useful stuff do we have in the Java world that we want to bring to the GNOME users? Elias |
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From: Luca De R. <pie...@li...> - 2003-11-09 14:19:56
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Il dom, 2003-11-09 alle 13:47, Elias Martenson ha scritto:
> True. It really does feel like everything has been done now has it? :-)
Mmh.. I don't think so. There are a LOT of apps the linux community is
missing. One example above all something like dreamweaver.
> I think I could top gFTP in a matter of days
> by leveraging the enterprisedt FTP client library.
Nice, but is it really needed? Isn't gftp already doing a nice job?
I think duplication of efforts is to be avoided.
> If you want to make an RSS reader, you could do that extremely quickly
> too since we have it all already, just need to slap a GUI on top of it.
>
> I've also considered making a better "todo" application. A smal app that
> sits in the panel and lets to easily keep track of everything that I
> should do (need panel support for this one).
Well, evolution supports RSS and there is a gtodo app that does exactly
that.
> So, what useful stuff do we have in the Java world that we want to bring
> to the GNOME users?
For the moment I think there are already some good apps, maybe not
killer ones, but however:
* Mark Howard wrote a nice app for Debian bugs tracking.I haven't
tried it, but I saw his homepage and it seems it rocks:)
* There are the gnome-postal, and cromagnon apps that still need a
lot of love:),but I think the could become useful, cause AFAIK
there are few Imap mail programs around.
* There is snark which is a bittorrent client written in
java-gnome, I've read some source code, and it's cool:) Users
love applications like this if they can connect to a big network
and share stuff...But again it still needs work.
* A killer app would be some like dreamweaver (ambitiuous...maybe
a jni for gtkglext?) ;) Or a modeler like blender, but with a
usable interface...
I won't make the list longer; My final point is that I think it's better
contribute improving some existing app like Tiago Cogumbreiro's one, or
the other ones I've mentioned than rewrite another implementation of an
existing app.
Luca.
--
Luca De Rugeriis <pie...@li...>
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From: Elias M. <el...@al...> - 2003-11-09 15:10:50
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s=C3=B6n 2003-11-09 klockan 15.17 skrev Luca De Rugeriis: > Il dom, 2003-11-09 alle 13:47, Elias Martenson ha scritto: > > True. It really does feel like everything has been done now has it? := -) > Mmh.. I don't think so. There are a LOT of apps the linux community is > missing. One example above all something like dreamweaver. Yes, but Dreamweaver is a very large and complex app and I don't think Java-GNOME could handle it yet (non-working graphics primitives for example). > > I think I could top gFTP in a matter of days > > by leveraging the enterprisedt FTP client library. > Nice, but is it really needed? Isn't gftp already doing a nice job? > I think duplication of efforts is to be avoided.=20 Sort of. gFTP isn't HIG'ed for example. The GUI is a pain to use. > > If you want to make an RSS reader, you could do that extremely quickl= y > > too since we have it all already, just need to slap a GUI on top of i= t. > >=20 > > I've also considered making a better "todo" application. A smal app t= hat > > sits in the panel and lets to easily keep track of everything that I > > should do (need panel support for this one). > Well, evolution supports RSS and there is a gtodo app that does exactly > that. Actually both the RSS reader and the FTP client were examples of cases where existing Java libraries could be leveraged to quickly produce good and efficient GNOME applications. > > So, what useful stuff do we have in the Java world that we want to br= ing > > to the GNOME users? > For the moment I think there are already some good apps, maybe not > killer ones, but however: >=20 > * Mark Howard wrote a nice app for Debian bugs tracking.I haven't > tried it, but I saw his homepage and it seems it rocks:) I'm not a debian user so I can't comment. :-) > * There are the gnome-postal, and cromagnon apps that still need = a > lot of love:),but I think the could become useful, cause AFAIK > there are few Imap mail programs around. Evolution and Balsa works, right? Cromagnon could be useful, yes. > * There is snark which is a bittorrent client written in > java-gnome, I've read some source code, and it's cool:) Users > love applications like this if they can connect to a big networ= k > and share stuff...But again it still needs work. Ahh that's cool. Never heard about it. I really think the existing wxWindows GUI sucks huge bananas. > * A killer app would be some like dreamweaver (ambitiuous...maybe > a jni for gtkglext?) ;) Or a modeler like blender, but with a > usable interface... These are huge projects. But I agree, useful. > I won't make the list longer; My final point is that I think it's bette= r > contribute improving some existing app like Tiago Cogumbreiro's one, or > the other ones I've mentioned than rewrite another implementation of an > existing app. We are not in disagreement. My point was simply that one of the greatest advantages of Java (apart from the easy error-free code you can produce) is the abundance of easy-to-use libraries that can do pretty much everything under the sun. We should take advantage of that. Elias |
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From: Fernando L. <fer...@lo...> - 2003-11-10 23:28:45
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Hi, >Yes, but Dreamweaver is a very large and complex app and I don't think >Java-GNOME could handle it yet (non-working graphics primitives for >example). > > I think that's another reason to choose this kind of apps. GTK+ is so featured because it was driven by the development of GIMP. Gnome become powerfull because it had to support the development of Gnomeric, and later Evolution. The Linux kernel is powerfull to support Samba, Apache and big databases. See KDE and Konquerror, Kdevelop or Koffice. Java-Gnome lacks a big, usefull app to prove its usability ando to put pressure to "fill the gaps". See how Eclipse is driving the adoption of SWT... That's sad, because SWT is "yet another UI toolkit" when there are already too many of them. The cross-plataform and cross-language nature of GTK+ could make it the only UI toolkit you've ever need, but it got few users outside Linux and Gnome developers. :-( []s, Fernando Lozano |
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From: Fernando L. <fer...@lo...> - 2003-11-10 23:27:12
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Hi there, >>True. It really does feel like everything has been done now has it? :-) >> >> >Mmh.. I don't think so. There are a LOT of apps the linux community is >missing. One example above all something like dreamweaver. > My vote would be for ArgoUML (www.tigris.org) rewriten using Java-Gnome. It's a terrific UML tool and one of the best diagram tools I've seen. But it uses Swing, which doesn't provided the agile and responsive UI we're used from ER-Win, Rational Rose or Visio. By the way, a drawing tool or a generic flow-chart/diagramming tool could well be the killer app. Can you remember a Linux app on these areas that really shines? Dia? No, it's connectors are cumbersome to anyone used to Windows similar tools, and its symbol libraries lacks artistic quality. Stretch? Sodipodi? They are promising, but still very far from Corel Draw or Freehand. >I won't make the list longer; My final point is that I think it's better >contribute improving some existing app like Tiago Cogumbreiro's one, or >the other ones I've mentioned than rewrite another implementation of an >existing app. > >Luca. > > Agreed. :-) []s, Fernando Lozano |
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From: Fernando L. <fer...@lo...> - 2003-11-10 23:26:47
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Hi there, > | You know what would be cool? If we got ourselves a killer app > | written using Java-GNOME. An app everybody wants. It would be > | beneficial for both the Linux, GNOME, and Java communities on so > | many levels. Let's hope it happens. > | > | Elias I think most "killer apps" for a desktop were already made. I'd love to see Java-Gnome popular for developing information systems and line-of-businness apps, in place of Swing. This is what Linux and Java miss today: something to fill the role of VB, Delphi or PowerBuilder. Rich UIs, easy but powerfull language, with performance. Java is the language that can do that, and GTK+ is the toolkit. Something integrating Eclipse and Glade would fill the gap, but them comes the main competition: SWT. It would also be important to have Java-Gnome (actually the Java-GTK+ portion) ported for Windows, preferably using GCJ instead of a Sun JVM. So any Java-Gnome app would run on a 100% free environment, and still be cross-plataform. []s, Fernando Lozano |
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From: Andrew - D. <aj...@on...> - 2003-11-11 08:19:51
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Fernando Lozano wrote: | Hi there, | |> | You know what would be cool? If we got ourselves a killer app |> | written using Java-GNOME. An app everybody wants. It would be |> | beneficial for both the Linux, GNOME, and Java communities on so |> | many levels. Let's hope it happens. |> | |> | Elias | | | I think most "killer apps" for a desktop were already made. I'd love to | see Java-Gnome popular for developing information systems and | line-of-businness apps, in place of Swing. This is what Linux and Java | miss today: something to fill the role of VB, Delphi or PowerBuilder. | Rich UIs, easy but powerfull language, with performance. Java is the | language that can do that, and GTK+ is the toolkit. Something | integrating Eclipse and Glade would fill the gap, but them comes the | main competition: SWT. | | It would also be important to have Java-Gnome (actually the Java-GTK+ | portion) ported for Windows, preferably using GCJ instead of a Sun JVM. | So any Java-Gnome app would run on a 100% free environment, and still be | cross-plataform. | | | []s, Fernando Lozano | Actually, the thing that I think is missing (or I can't find) is a substitute for MS Access. I think something could be done that uses HSQLDB (for example) and a front end is tacked on to it to provide a schema builder, forms, reports. I have seen some around, but they are really poor quality and usually cost $. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/sJxxyheqWpsy0vsRAnd3AJ0XgVXwpff9s4FdJawzQ9aSU1KzBACfXO6h fDYbyFYBah98qEmojdOJRls= =tOsV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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From: Fernando L. <fer...@lo...> - 2003-11-12 00:18:03
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Hi Andrew, > | I think most "killer apps" for a desktop were already made. I'd love to > | see Java-Gnome popular for developing information systems and > | line-of-businness apps, in place of Swing. This is what Linux and Java > | miss today: something to fill the role of VB, Delphi or PowerBuilder. > | Rich UIs, easy but powerfull language, with performance. Java is the > | language that can do that, and GTK+ is the toolkit. Something > | integrating Eclipse and Glade would fill the gap > Actually, the thing that I think is missing (or I can't find) is a > substitute for MS Access. I think something could be done that uses > HSQLDB (for example) and a front end is tacked on to it to provide a > schema builder, forms, reports. I have seen some around, but they are > really poor quality and usually cost $. OpenOffice has some head start on this. I'm amazed at how few people know OpenOffice can connect to databases, create tables, run SQL statements and visually design queryes just like Access. It doesn't have forms (well, you can draw then on Writer or Calc). But this is a nice example of what could be developed using GCJ to become the "killer" app. Use Rhino or BeanShell for the scripting language, Glade for forms, and HSQLDB to build an Access-Like low profile development tool. :-) []s, Fernando Lozano |
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From: Alberto G. <alb...@te...> - 2003-11-09 14:48:40
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> You know what would be cool? If we got ourselves a killer app written > using Java-GNOME. An app everybody wants. It would be beneficial for > both the Linux, GNOME, and Java communities on so many levels. Let's > hope it happens. I am implementing the complete DOM level 2 specification in Java. DOM 2 has support for CSS. It will let me develop, for example, a WYSIWYG DocBoook/xHTML/... editor or a web browser with complete CSS support. CSS lets define render properties for devices such as aural devices, handhelds, printers, screens, TVs,... So, for example, it would be easier develop an aural web browser using javax.speech and DOM with CSS. I think develop a WYSIWYG DocBook editor using Java-GNOME would be very usefull and maybe it would become a killer app. |
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From: Tiago C. <cog...@li...> - 2003-11-09 13:12:36
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> So, what useful stuff do we have in the Java world that we want to bring > to the GNOME users? IMO, one usefull could bring to the Gnome/Java/Linux world is a tool that i am developing, a program to grab and burn cd images with ease (think of BlindSuite, CloneCD), the interface between Linux and java is made with JNI but the burning/ripping engine is made totally in java, so it's _not_ a cdrecord frontend. With the right amount of HIG and cdrecording development it could be a killer app for Gnome and Linux community. The application already reads cd images, blanks CD's (showing the progress, cdrecord/cdrdao doesn't) and i've already implemented in C the routine for writing ISO's (implementing it in java is just a matter of minutes). If there is someone interested in this project let me know. Tiago Cogumbreiro |
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From: Elias M. <el...@al...> - 2003-11-09 14:45:27
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s=C3=B6n 2003-11-09 klockan 14.12 skrev Tiago Cogumbreiro: > > So, what useful stuff do we have in the Java world that we want to br= ing > > to the GNOME users? > IMO, one usefull could bring to the Gnome/Java/Linux world is a tool > that i am developing, a program to grab and burn cd images with ease > (think of BlindSuite, CloneCD), the interface between Linux and java is > made with JNI but the burning/ripping engine is made totally in java, s= o > it's _not_ a cdrecord frontend. With the right amount of HIG and > cdrecording development it could be a killer app for Gnome and Linux > community. The application already reads cd images, blanks CD's (showin= g > the progress, cdrecord/cdrdao doesn't) and i've already implemented in = C > the routine for writing ISO's (implementing it in java is just a matter > of minutes). > If there is someone interested in this project let me know. I'm definately interested! Is there a sourceforge rpoject for this? Elias |
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From: Tiago C. <cog...@li...> - 2003-11-09 17:53:45
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On Dom, 2003-11-09 at 13:41, Luca De Rugeriis wrote: > Il dom, 2003-11-09 alle 14:12, Tiago Cogumbreiro ha scritto: > > IMO, one usefull could bring to the Gnome/Java/Linux world is a tool > > that i am developing, a program to grab and burn cd images with ease > > (think of BlindSuite, CloneCD), the interface between Linux and java is > > made with JNI but the burning/ripping engine is made totally in java, so > > it's _not_ a cdrecord frontend. With the right amount of HIG and > > cdrecording development it could be a killer app for Gnome and Linux > > community. The application already reads cd images, blanks CD's (showing > > the progress, cdrecord/cdrdao doesn't) and i've already implemented in C > > the routine for writing ISO's (implementing it in java is just a matter > > of minutes). > > If there is someone interested in this project let me know. > Cool! These could be a killer app since there are only gtoaster(which I > don't like) an the old xcdroast, which still rocks but has an > unintuitive interface and is written with gtk-1.4. > On the other hand there is the nautilus burning component but it's very > limited although it has a nice simple interface. > I'm interested in contributing but I'm new to java/java-gnome/gtk (3 > months experience). I've written a simple java-gnome app as a learning > exercise: It generates passwords of chosen length. I've also submitted > patches to java-gnome. > Unfortunately I can't help with the JNI, but maybe I can do something > useful with the java part of the code. You don't need to have any JNI skills because i already did the JNI fondations of the lib so now everything that needs to be done is in Java. > If you think my skill level is too low, don't worry, you can simply > ignore this mail ,it isn't an offense ;) I don't know your skills, but i don't need to, if you can help i'll be most gratefull. The application is divided in two main components the cd I/O lib, the graphical client and maybe a command line client. The GUI is already being developed and it's functional yet there is work to be done. > > Else you can send me your sources, and let me know which parts need some > work. > If you want to take a look at my little app (500 lines) to see what I > can do, I will send it. > > Ciao, > Luca. I am going to create a sourceforge project and put the files there, i have a somewhat outdated version of cdmirror in: http://s1x.homelinux.net/downloads/cdmirror.tar.bz2 Finally i want to underline that the initial concept of the project is not to create a masterizing program, the first concept is to write/read images from CDs (it already includes tools to convert images like .bin to .isos, and raw audio to .wav). To create a fullfeatured remastering program natively will be hard work, you have to create a library for ISO managing, thus should be developed in a future stage. |
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