ilohamail-devel

[Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose"

[Leif H. S. <hyp...@le...>]

Hi -- as I worked with the "Norwegian (nn)" translation i thought a lot about
how to translate "Compose". Finally I came up with the idea that the best
thing was to use a norwegian equivalent for "letter sheet"/"sheet"/"letter
paper". In scandinavian in general it would be "brevark", which is what I
used. A "brevark" can be precomposed with address fields, signature and other
things. It gives a more "open feeling" to what you are going to do as you
click on the "write a letter"-button, if it is called "brevark". I think
perhaps that was why Ryo chose "Compose" and not "Write"?

I noticed that many translated have used equivalents of english "Write" (like
Skriv, for instance).

I belive the meaning behind the choice of "Compose" is that the "Compose"
window is place where we can put togegher bits and pieces from here and
there. Like we can look throught the contacts for an address. We can use or
not use the signature. We can ad an attachment. Or not. And there is fields
to be filled in. We do not start "from scratch", with a white sheet of
paper.

And creating an e-mail messag does not necessarily have to do with *writing*
a letter. But *composing* or "putting together" a letter, it definitively is!
I feel that "brevark/letter sheet" better touches the "spirit" of "compose"
than "write/schreib/skriv/" and so on. After all, how much writing is
involved if you only add a subject, an address and an *attachment*?

On the other side we cannot use "compose", because in many non-english
languages that is too linked to art, especially "composing music".

I also want to mention in this context that the word for "letter", which for
many of us i "Brev/Brief" and similar words, is a very good one because a
"brev" is the same as a "brief message".

It seems to me that in many languages one hase chosen to translate to some
equivalent to "message" more or less. But I think that we think of e-mail as
mail with an *E*. For instance I see that many norwegian e-mail programs used
the word "melding" (=3D "message"). Yet in daily speech a "melding" is only
used about SMS-messages. If you say you are going to write someone a message,
not one would think you would write an e-mail. But probably that you would
send him/her a SMS-message.

Also, the term "e-message" does not exist. Or "e-nachrichten" to use a german
term. Or =ABe-melding=BB. In other words, we use the word "message" about "e-=
mail
messages" only within context of the e-mail program. Hence I see no reason
for not sticking more to the mail and post terminology. And forget about
"message", at least in the not-english context. In the scandinavian context
at least none of us receives "messages" in the snail mail?!! If we use
"message/melidng" in that context, then we think about some *content* of a
particular letter and not the letter itself.

And to thinking even further: why do we talk about marking letters as *read*
or *unread*? Would it not be just as good to talk about them being *opened*
or *unopened*? Even if you opened a letter, it does not need to be read?

All in all: we have this teriffic word "Brev/Brief" which means "short
message" and which fits well within the "mail thinking". That is why I think
"Brev/Brief" is a good word to use internally in an e-mail program. Better
often, than the equivalents of "message". In MacOSX the swedish version of
Apple Mail already uses Brev in this way!

Anyway, we have to think about how thing fits together when we translate or
give a feture a name. And there is many things which when direct translated
does not at all give the same result as the english terms.

All the best,

--=20
leif halvard silli

[Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose"

[Gilberto S. R. <gs...@br...>]

Just some thoughts about the translation of "compose"
1 - Netscape, and Mozilla, uses "compose" as a meaning for "writing a
new message" or a new "HTML page" in their built-in composer;
2 - Microsoft likes to use the term "NEW" so it fits with its standard:
you choose to write, or compose, a "new" "word"'s document, a "new"
Excel's spreadsheet, and  a "new message"; 
3 - As it holds a great market share, its standard ends up becoming a
"de facto" standard, and so many other companies also use it;
4 - In Brazil, most Webmail services use the expression "New Message" or
just "New" so it will become easy for Microsoft Users  to understand
"what it really does" ( "write" is used also by some few);
5 - The Brazilian translation uses "New Message" so it will couple with
translations used in others softwares.
6 - and finally, the option "compose" just offers to the user functions
needed for writing a new e-mail,as we are talking about a e-mail client,
no-matter how sophisticated it can be or how it will be done.
7 - Leif Halvard Silli is right when said that "compose, ... in many
no-english languages ... is linked to art ..." ( at least in Brazilian
Portuguese).

So I think, for simplicity sake and to accomplish with the market (you
can read Microsoft), it could be changed to something like "Write New
Message" or "New Message" or even just "New" as most of the users will
understand what it is all about.

Re: [Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose"

[Leif H. S. <hyp...@le...>]

m=E5ndagen den 30 juni 2003 kl 04.12 skreiv Gilberto Sena Rios:

> Just some thoughts about the translation of "compose"
> 1 - Netscape, and Mozilla, uses "compose" as a meaning for "writing a
> new message" or a new "HTML page" in their built-in composer;

Actually they use the verb "Compose" only inside the "Mail &=20
Newsgroups" application! And then they use it as the name of the "new=20
e-mail button". Inside "Composer" application it doesn't appear as a=20
verb. Only as a name (for instance "New Composer Page"). We must=20
remember that Ilohamail only contains a *button* and no menus.=20
"Compose" then is in line with the Mozilla practise.

> 2 - Microsoft likes to use the term "NEW" so it fits with its =
standard:
> you choose to write, or compose, a "new" "word"'s document, a "new"
> Excel's spreadsheet, and  a "new message";

YOu don't mention Apple practise. They also uses "Compose". On the=20
button inside the mailbox browser, just like Mozilla does. MS Outlook=20
Express for Mac uses "New" but the "tool tips text" says "Compose new=20
message"...

> 3 - As it holds a great market share, its standard ends up becoming a
> "de facto" standard, and so many other companies also use it;
> 4 - In Brazil, most Webmail services use the expression "New Message"=20=

> or
> just "New" so it will become easy for Microsoft Users  to understand
> "what it really does" ( "write" is used also by some few);
> 5 - The Brazilian translation uses "New Message" so it will couple =
with
> translations used in others softwares.
> 6 - and finally, the option "compose" just offers to the user =
functions
> needed for writing a new e-mail,as we are talking about a e-mail=20
> client,
> no-matter how sophisticated it can be or how it will be done.
> 7 - Leif Halvard Silli is right when said that "compose, ... in many
> no-english languages ... is linked to art ..." ( at least in Brazilian
> Portuguese).

Mostly musical art, I think. When we e.g. talk about "how a picture is=20=

composed" we do not think about the *content* of it, but the internal=20
form of it, how its elements stands in relation to each others. Perhaps=20=

it is contended in the word also: "com pose", com-positioned... A=20
"composer" is a "music maker". Probably we reserve the word mostly for=20=

the "music making" because (Classical) music making is conceived as=20
positioning of set elements (Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do...)  a set frame=20
(the type of composition). In this way we might say that "to Compose",=20=

even if it is reserved for art, is not a word for "being free form=20
creative", but a word for *balancing* elements against each others (aka=20=

"put together").

In the languages I know a bit, except english, I don't advocate use of=20=

"Compose", but it must be said that since Ilohamail is *mostly* only an=20=

e-mailer, Compose becomes (in theory at least) very clear. Because,=20
what else could you compose with it but letters? ;-) At least you don't=20=

compose a "new contact" or a "new event" in the calendar or a new=20
Bookmark. Which is why "Compose" is also very distinct from "New" which=20=

could mean "new contact" or "new calendar event". And finally: since=20
people *will* understand, then instead of saying that a simplistic=20
language is enough, you instead take that as an oppurtunity to perhaps=20=

think differently.

> So I think, for simplicity sake and to accomplish with the market (you
> can read Microsoft), it could be changed to something like "Write New
> Message" or "New Message" or even just "New" as most of the users will
> understand what it is all about.

If you by this try to say that perhaps also the english version of=20
Ilohamail could change the name of the button as well, then I disagree,=20=

as it is in line with *button naming* in Apples "Mail" and Mozillas=20
"Mail & Newsgroups" to use "Compose".

Anyway, when I log into Ilohamail I feel like I am logging into an=20
office or a study: to the left I have the folders (and folder=20
management) where I keep the letters. To the right of them I have the=20
"letter forms" which I can use to "compose/put together" e-mails. Then=20=

follows "the calendar" or "fil-o-fax" if you wish. And the book of=20
"contacts". And then some things to remember, the "bookmarks". And=20
finally a button for the "set up/choises/options" of the office. I=20
think that the translation must keep an eye to how the elements of (in=20=

this case) Ilohamai play together. I.e. look at how Ilohamail is=20
*composed* and not only look at single elements.

Simply to write "new" instead of "compose" does not play into this=20
composition, I feel. It is understandable, but is it musical? ;-) We=20
must dare to use the images and imagry of the english original a bit=20
more, I think. *And* to use/develope the equivalent imagery of our own=20=

languages. (And now I think not only about Ilohamail.) I will again=20
mention the Swedish translation of Apple Mail as a good example, with=20
its consequent use of "Brev" (i.e. "Letter") through the whole program.=20=

  And this is my secound point: consequense. If you are consequent,=20
people will understand what you mean. And being consequent therefore=20
gives you opportunity for being creative.

Btw, the Norwegian (nn) version of Mozilla has the name of Mozillas=20
"Composer" translated into the 17 letters long equivalent of "net page=20=

development" ("Nettsideutvikling"). ;-) Quite dull, if you ask me.=20
Still it sort of works because the translation is consequent.

But of course, I am not here to tell you what the translation should=20
look like in "Brasilian Portuguese". I just have these ideas, and it is=20=

sort of interesting to see if it is --at all-- possible to discuss=20
these things in an international setting...
--=20
leif

Re: [Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose"

[Ryo C. <ry...@il...>]

On 6/30/2003, "Gilberto Sena Rios" <gs...@br...> wrote:

>So I think, for simplicity sake and to accomplish with the market (you
>can read Microsoft), it could be changed to something like "Write New
>Message" or "New Message" or even just "New" as most of the users will
>understand what it is all about.

IMO, whatever Microsoft does isn't necessarily the best way to do
things.  Not to mention, Microsoft's software isn't exactly known for
ease of use.  I won't argue with the fact they have become the defacto
standard, but at the same time, that's one standard I have no intention
of following with IlohaMail.

At least in English, I don't think there's any problem with
"Compose".  Most of the other open source webmail systems use Compose,
and for most users, it should be clear enough.  THe other thing I like
about "Compose" is that it's one word.  As you may notice, at least
in the English version of IlohaMail, all tool bar items are one word
each.

Ryo

Re: [Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose"

[Ryo C. <ry...@il...>]

Thanks for your insightful comments.  I've never given it too much thought, but as you said, "compose" has implications beyond simply writing an email (e.g. you "compose" music).  I checked, and in my Japanese translations, I use a generic word meaning "create" which is close to "compose".  On the other hand, the German translation uses "Neue Nachricht" which means "new message", and indeed, the notion of composition or creation is lost.

BTW, the German translations have undergone so many changes.  On last count, I've received German translations (whole ones or updates) from 4 different people, and I'm fairly certain that there's a silent war over some translations.

On a related note, one word that I haven't qutie settled on is the "Options" in the toolbar.  As you may notice, at the top of each of the pages, it still says "Preferences".  But I can't decide on "Options", "Preferences", "Configure" and "Settings"...

Ryo

On 6/27/2003, "Leif Halvard Silli" <hyp...@le...> wrote:

>
>Hi -- as I worked with the "Norwegian (nn)" translation i thought a lot
>about
>how to translate "Compose". Finally I came up with the idea that the
>best
>thing was to use a norwegian equivalent for "letter
>sheet"/"sheet"/"letter
>paper". In scandinavian in general it would be "brevark", which is what
>I
>used. A "brevark" can be precomposed with address fields, signature and
>other
>things. It gives a more "open feeling" to what you are going to do as
>you
>click on the "write a letter"-button, if it is called "brevark". I think
>perhaps that was why Ryo chose "Compose" and not "Write"?
>
>I noticed that many translated have used equivalents of english "Write"
>(like
>Skriv, for instance).
>
>I belive the meaning behind the choice of "Compose" is that the
>"Compose"
>window is place where we can put togegher bits and pieces from here and
>there. Like we can look throught the contacts for an address. We can use
>or
>not use the signature. We can ad an attachment. Or not. And there is
>fields
>to be filled in. We do not start "from scratch", with a white sheet of
>paper.
>
>And creating an e-mail messag does not necessarily have to do with
>*writing*
>a letter. But *composing* or "putting together" a letter, it
>definitively is!
>I feel that "brevark/letter sheet" better touches the "spirit" of
>"compose"
>than "write/schreib/skriv/" and so on. After all, how much writing is
>involved if you only add a subject, an address and an *attachment*?
>
>On the other side we cannot use "compose", because in many non-english
>languages that is too linked to art, especially "composing music".
>
>I also want to mention in this context that the word for "letter", which
>for
>many of us i "Brev/Brief" and similar words, is a very good one because
>a
>"brev" is the same as a "brief message".
>
>It seems to me that in many languages one hase chosen to translate to
>some
>equivalent to "message" more or less. But I think that we think of
>e-mail as
>mail with an *E*. For instance I see that many norwegian e-mail programs
>used
>the word "melding" (= "message"). Yet in daily speech a "melding" is
>only
>used about SMS-messages. If you say you are going to write someone a
>message,
>not one would think you would write an e-mail. But probably that you
>would
>send him/her a SMS-message.
>
>Also, the term "e-message" does not exist. Or "e-nachrichten" to use a
>german
>term. Or (I+(Be-melding(I;(B. In other words, we use the word "message" about
>"e-mail
>messages" only within context of the e-mail program. Hence I see no
>reason
>for not sticking more to the mail and post terminology. And forget about
>"message", at least in the not-english context. In the scandinavian
>context
>at least none of us receives "messages" in the snail mail?!! If we use
>"message/melidng" in that context, then we think about some *content* of
>a
>particular letter and not the letter itself.
>
>And to thinking even further: why do we talk about marking letters as
>*read*
>or *unread*? Would it not be just as good to talk about them being
>*opened*
>or *unopened*? Even if you opened a letter, it does not need to be read?
>
>All in all: we have this teriffic word "Brev/Brief" which means "short
>message" and which fits well within the "mail thinking". That is why I
>think
>"Brev/Brief" is a good word to use internally in an e-mail program.
>Better
>often, than the equivalents of "message". In MacOSX the swedish version
>of
>Apple Mail already uses Brev in this way!
>
>Anyway, we have to think about how thing fits together when we translate
>or
>give a feture a name. And there is many things which when direct
>translated
>does not at all give the same result as the english terms.
>
>All the best,
>
>-- 
>leif halvard silli
>
>
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Re: [Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose"

[Leif H. S. <hyp...@le...>]

laurdagen den 28 juni 2003 kl 23.04 skreiv Ryo Chijiiwa:

> Thanks for your insightful comments.  I've never given it too much=20
> thought, but as you said, "compose" has implications beyond simply=20
> writing an email (e.g. you "compose" music). I checked, and in my=20
> Japanese translations, I use a generic word meaning "create" which is=20=

> close to "compose".  On the other hand, the German translation uses=20
> "Neue Nachricht" which means "new message", and indeed, the notion of=20=

> composition or creation is lost.

I saw on your web site that you lived in germany some years ;-) Does=20
the japanese word also have the meaning "put together"?

> BTW, the German translations have undergone so many changes.  On last=20=

> count, I've received German translations (whole ones or updates) from=20=

> 4 different people, and I'm fairly certain that there's a silent war=20=

> over some translations.

:-) Yes, such things can happen, I know...  There are many choices...=20
As for instance how close one should be to the original. Translations=20
often becomes more dull than the original. And this happens because one=20=

takes the original too little into account. (You don't have to make a=20
literal translation, but...) And many has strong opinons about what is=20=

possible or not. For instance, take the word =ABQuit=BB. At least on =
MacOS=20
you =ABQuit=BB a program. The typical norwegian word used for Quit is=20
simply =ABAvslutt=BB (perhaps =ABAbschluss=BB in German, allthought that =
is=20
perhaps only a noun.). But I feel there is a lot more smash in Quit=20
than in =ABAvslutt=BB. After all, isn't =ABKill=BB another word for =
=ABQuit=BB? And=20
when the word Kvitta exist in norwegian also, then why? (Actually=20
Kvitta is old norse word and Avslutt is a german loan... Though I=20
suppose many would take it for a english loan.) It seems to me one are=20=

not daring enough...

> On a related note, one word that I haven't qutie settled on is the=20
> "Options" in the toolbar.  As you may notice, at the top of each of=20
> the pages, it still says "Preferences".  But I can't decide on=20
> "Options", "Preferences", "Configure" and "Settings"...

Usually e-mail programs do not put account-managment and preferences in=20=

the same place, I think. But Mail in MacOSX is one exeption. And there=20=

it is called Preferences. I had become quite satisfied with Options.=20
But I think I like Settings better. Though Configure also fits well=20
with your =ABactive=BB style. (You also have =ABCompose=BB you know.) =
But=20
another =ABactive=BB word then could be =ABSet up=BB... perhaps.

PS: I deleted you quoting of my e-mail because the quoting of Ilohamail=20=

often looks ugly. I am not sure what happens, but when Ilohamail=20
quotes, many lines often become only  1-2 words long. I suppose it=20
needs to rewrap the paragraphs somehow so it looks better...?
--=20
leif

Re: [Ilohamail-devel] wrapping (was: Translation of "compose")

[Ryo C. <ry...@il...>]

On 6/29/2003, "Leif Halvard Silli" <hyp...@le...> wrote:

>PS: I deleted you quoting of my e-mail because the quoting of Ilohamail 
>often looks ugly. I am not sure what happens, but when Ilohamail 
>quotes, many lines often become only  1-2 words long. I suppose it 
>needs to rewrap the paragraphs somehow so it looks better...?

The quoted text wrapping was getting on my nerves too, so I implemented a
smarter wrapping algorithm.  Basically, it leaves quoted text as is
(without wrapping), and only wraps newly entered text.  (This message
should be an example of that behavior).

Ryo

Re: [Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose"

[Rodolfo P. <ro...@pi...>]

Ryo Chijiiwa escribio'::

>Thanks for your insightful comments.  I've never given it too much thought, but as you said, "compose" has implications beyond simply writing an email (e.g. you "compose" music).  I checked, and in my Japanese translations, I use a generic word meaning "create" which is close to "compose".  On the other hand, the German translation uses "Neue Nachricht" which means "new message", and indeed, the notion of composition or creation is lost.
>  
>

In the Spanish translation I used the word "Redactar" that Babelfish
says that means "to write up".

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 http://xtralinux.org     -=# Apocalipsis Now % Cuarteto de Nos #=-

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German Translations (was Re: [Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose")

[Dirk F. R. <d0...@sp...>]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Ryo Chijiiwa wrote:

> BTW, the German translations have undergone so many changes.  On last
> count, I've received German translations (whole ones or updates) from 4
> different people, and I'm fairly certain that there's a silent war over
> some translations.

What is the status of the German translations? You write you have
translations from several people, but there are many non-translated
entries. Are these translators still contributing or is there a need for
the updates?

Dirk

German Translations (was Re: [Ilohamail-devel] Translation of "compose")

[Ryo C. <ry...@il...>]

On 7/17/2003, "Dirk F. Raetzel" <d0...@sp...> wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Ryo Chijiiwa wrote:
>
>> BTW, the German translations have undergone so many changes.  On last
>> count, I've received German translations (whole ones or updates) from 4
>> different people, and I'm fairly certain that there's a silent war over
>> some translations.
>
>What is the status of the German translations? You write you have
>translations from several people, but there are many non-translated
>entries. Are these translators still contributing or is there a need for
>the updates?

There really is no concerted effort behind the translations.  Translators
come and go, so usually someone notices that work needs to be done, and
does it.  Some languages have committed translators who send me regular
updates (or check them into CVS themselves), but most languages don't.
So if you noticed missing translations and could send me updates, that'd
be great.  If you'd like, I can also give you access to CVS to check in
changes yourself.

Ryo