I spent the day comparing HERMES Mail to other eMail clients and, as
it turns out, I know exactly how to position it in the market: as a
competitor to Postbox. HERMES (as Eudora) had many of Postbox's
features LONG before there was a Postbox to begin with... and I
think we can steal their clients ;)
Have a look at https://www.postbox-inc.com/.https://www.postbox-inc.com/. It
seems like every single one of their features, Eudora has... and
nobody else. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Domain fencing? We've got that (but
we call it BossWatch)! Summarise Mode? We call it the Content
Concentrator! Tabbed windows? We've got them, too! Focus Pane? We
have its functionality in our search!
There are a few things we don't have. Yet. So I urge you: read the
Postbox web site carefully. If there's something there that, in your
opinion, would be a good fit for Hermes, please don't hesitate to
put it in. That program, more than anything else, is our
competition. Not The Bat!, not Claws/Sylpheed, and certainly not
Thunderbird. On one hand, Trojita could be said to compete with
us... but only within the IMAP sphere, seeing as it lacks something
so basic as POP3. In any case, we can steal^H^H^H^H^Hborrow their
IMAP code (giving them appropriate credit, of course).
Do you think this is a bit premature, planning implementing new
features before you have something even working? It is sounding a bit
like a forward plan which you rejected before :-) :-)
But to be honest, there are many things about the existing Eudora
that could be done better and working on them first would be more
valuable. I am thinking for example of the filters. The actual
mechanism is fine, but when you have hundreds of them and want to
update one, it is hard finding it. A search option would be one
enhancement. Some way of grouping them would be another, so you could
have groups like Friends, Family, Banks, Mailing lists, etc.
Perhaps create a new thread or two for a wish list. One could be
features that need updating. Another could be features that Eudora
does not currently do but people may want to do. Ofc, this does not
imply adopting all of them. Hopefully there would be some discussion
about the worth of the suggestion, and the work required to implement
it.
Well, to be honest, I didn't understand 100% what you meant by 'plan'. All I saw was you non-specifically denigrating my management style, with criticisms that, at least to me, could be taken as having multiple meanings. I wasn't exactly sure what you wanted. Now, I think I sort of understand what you meant back then.
At the genesis of this project, I didn't want to overload my programmers with feature requests. That still sort of applies to-day: I want HERMES working and compilable first of all, and to this end, whatever plans I'd published were meticulous write-ups of what needs to be done in order to get us there. I had assumed that was what you meant. That plan, if you haven't seen it already, is on the blog.
On the other hand, though, I'm acutely aware of such things as market positioning. Toward whom do we target HERMES? Thunderbird users? GMail users? Nostalgia users of Eudora? That question, among others, has been preying on my mind for the last three months, and I do believe I've come fairly close to knowing one of a few possible answers. While we will be targeting Eudora users as a matter of course, Postbox is the one eMail client that feature-wise serves as a partial replacement. Now, its UI is miles behind Eudora, but considering what I read on the Postbox website, it's almost as if they were reading Eudora documents when planning out their program, and suggesting improvements. So I'm thinking, let's return the favour. On the blog, you will see what I believe to be the most important features of Postbox and other eMail clients of note, and how we should implement them as well.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Go and learn something about effective project management. One-man-bands
are not it. I am out of here - there are plenty of other things I can do.
On 20/09/18 0:58 , Ted Matavka wrote:
Attn: Morrison
Well, to be honest, I didn't understand 100% what you meant by 'plan'.
All I saw was you non-specifically denigrating my management style,
with criticisms that, at least to me, could be taken as having
multiple meanings. I wasn't exactly sure what you wanted. Now, I think
I sort of understand what you meant back then.
At the genesis of this project, I didn't want to overload my
programmers with feature requests. That still sort of applies to-day:
I want HERMES working and compilable first of all, and to this end,
whatever plans I'd published were meticulous write-ups of what needs
to be done in order to get us there. I had assumed that was what you
meant. That plan, if you haven't seen it already, is on the blog.
On the other hand, though, I'm acutely aware of such things as market
positioning. Toward whom do we target HERMES? Thunderbird users? GMail
users? Nostalgia users of Eudora? That question, among others, has
been preying on my mind for the last three months, and I do believe
I've come /fairly/ close to knowing one of a few possible answers.
While we will be targeting Eudora users as a matter of course, Postbox
is the one eMail client that feature-wise serves as a partial
replacement. Now, its UI is miles behind Eudora, but considering what
I read on the Postbox website, it's almost as if they were reading
Eudora documents when planning out their program, and suggesting
improvements. So I'm thinking, let's return the favour. On the blog,
you will see what I believe to be the most important features of
Postbox and other eMail clients of note, and how we should implement
them as well.
Gmail changed their interface (again!). I for one would love to have a decent Email Client like Eudora back again instead of being forced to use Outlook with it's Microsoft-centric way of doing things.
Even using PMMail/2 on ArcaOS is a breath of fresh air. A talented gentleman by the name of Paul Smedley ported STUNNEL so I can use my GMail with SSL now. Maybe even IMAP. Anyway, I digress. A modernized Eudora on Windows would be just fantastic. That and Lotus Organizer would be my most used Apps.
Now to make that happen, it needs someone with the vision and the plan to see it through. Which is one thing your Project definitely has on its side. I will certainly be following your progress, and I will spread the word. Unfortunately I'm a bit of a lame duck... when everybody else was learning to do C++ properly I was still playing around with Pascal / Delphi / VB etc. :)
If you can get a nice, integrated 1st Release out there you will really start to get some traction! You are doing great things by taking on this project and getting started. It's a shame there has to be negativity like this. A Project like this needs a different approach and someone to hold it all together. (it is doubtful that a prickly individual who criticizes everything and everyone would be even-tempered enough to manage a project of any sort, so the objection raised is pretty much worthless anyway)
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Now to make that happen, it
needs someone with the vision and the plan to see it through. Which is
one thing your Project definitely has on its side. I will certainly be
following your progress, and I will spread the word. Unfortunately I'm a
bit of a lame duck... when everybody else was learning to do C++ properly
I was still playing around with Pascal / Delphi / VB etc.
:)
That's a cut above me; ((all I can (write)) is (LISP)), which is
perfectly good for one-player games and artificial intelligence stuff,
but I'd never call it a "real" programming language. It's
more like REXX---but then again, REXX is used in programming mainframes,
so I can't knock that class of languages too much either.
If you can get a nice,
integrated 1st Release out there you will really start to get some
traction! You are doing great things by taking on this project and
getting started.
Well, thank you for that vote of confidence. Truly. It means
a lot and motivates me to see this project through to maturity (I won't
say to a conclusion, because the point is NOT to have a
conclusion).
It's a shame there has to be
negativity like this. A Project like this needs a different approach and
someone to hold it all together.
Indeed. I wonder if any sort of project to resurrect Eudora would
have come together had I not floated the idea and spent valuable time
recruiting people and raising funds. I waited for a month to see if
someone else would take the initiative, but nobody did.
(it is doubtful that a prickly
individual who criticizes everything and everyone would be even-tempered
enough to manage a project of any sort, so the objection raised is pretty
much worthless anyway)
The only person whose criticism should count, at this point, is Pete
Maclean, because he actually put a lot of work into this thing and
had well-worded, incisive comments that helped me find the problem and
eradicate it.
The problem is, though, that my reactive mind---my subconscious, my bank,
etc---does not really work that way. When I secured Maclean's
continued participation, I felt like I'd dodged a bullet (rightly so,
because this project absolutely could not move an inch without him) but I
felt even worse when I got two similarly pessimistic comments from others
almost the very day after (made worse by comment two specifically
agreeing with comment one). It really did a number on my mental
state. I was this close to letting loose with a profanity-laced
tirade on why I have lost faith in the human race.
I have become sick to the gills of people pouring cold water on my
efforts and doing nothing to contribute. If you think I am a
worthless project lead, why don't you put yourself forward, or at
least contribute one line of code/one dollar/one paragraph of technical
documentation? Otherwise, such criticism has no credibility.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I'll gladly put myself in the "Eudora fanatic" camp. I anxiouly await the first Hermes release....even if it's just a current compiled Eudora version with all the SSL enhancements that allow it to work with all current secure mail servers. From everything I've been reading here, once the "fixed" Eudora code can compile it's Katy bar the door time! To Ted and others....press on and do not be deterred. The Kickstarter page keeps growing!
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I'll gladly put myself in the
"Eudora fanatic" camp. I anxiouly await the first Hermes
release....even if it's just a current compiled Eudora version with all
the SSL enhancements that allow it to work with all current secure mail
servers.
That's already done, though of course we'll continue making adjustments
to the SSL code. The way I see it (chime in if you disagree) is
we'll have Maclean working primarily on DLL's and non-MFC code, while
Thygesen and Prickett can handle MFC/WxWidgets stuff. As for
feature additions, I would think putting Thygesen (primarily) on
front-end and Maclean/Prickett on back-end would be most efficient,
though of course feel free to allocate amongst yourselves.
From everything I've been
reading here, once the "fixed" Eudora code can compile it's
Katy bar the door time!
I should hope so. I've come very close to a depressive episode
because of people's sustained criticism. I know it's a logical
fallacy ad hominem to say that the people who have criticised my
management style should volunteer for the task themselves, but I don't
think it's too much to ask them to involve themselves, at least
peripherally, before they start putting me down. And if your
response is to tell me to grow a thicker skin: read Blaszczak's comment
and pretend he directed that at you. His whole critique can be
summed up as, "I have specific, topical knowledge that might mean
the difference between life and death for this project, but I'm
withholding it, because you have no idea what you're doing---do
you? My knowledge will remain withheld until I decide you've
pulled your head out of your @®$, in spite of its value even if I'm
wrong, and especially if I'm right." And then someone comes along
and agrees with him in public, and they feed off each other. Try
keeping your cool in the face of such vocal, public criticism.
To Ted and others....press on
and do not be deterred. The Kickstarter page keeps
growing!
Honestly, that's the only thing that keeps me above the water line: the
knowledge that people trust me enough to give me that kind of money, or
to code for me, with the hope that a product will come out of
this.
I have NO DOUBT that something GOOD has already and will come of this project. I'm not sure exactly how many Eudora users are on this "eudora-win@hades.listmoms.net" but there seem to be 20-30 of them at least. The only email client I want to abandon Eudora for is Hermes. So, damn the torpedos and full-speed ahead for the Hermes "ship". I'm with you guys all the way!
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Do you think this is a bit premature, planning implementing new
features before you have something even working? It is sounding a bit
like a forward plan which you rejected before :-) :-)
But to be honest, there are many things about the existing Eudora
that could be done better and working on them first would be more
valuable. I am thinking for example of the filters. The actual
mechanism is fine, but when you have hundreds of them and want to
update one, it is hard finding it. A search option would be one
enhancement. Some way of grouping them would be another, so you could
have groups like Friends, Family, Banks, Mailing lists, etc.
Perhaps create a new thread or two for a wish list. One could be
features that need updating. Another could be features that Eudora
does not currently do but people may want to do. Ofc, this does not
imply adopting all of them. Hopefully there would be some discussion
about the worth of the suggestion, and the work required to implement
it.
Cheers
David
Attn: Morrison
Well, to be honest, I didn't understand 100% what you meant by 'plan'. All I saw was you non-specifically denigrating my management style, with criticisms that, at least to me, could be taken as having multiple meanings. I wasn't exactly sure what you wanted. Now, I think I sort of understand what you meant back then.
At the genesis of this project, I didn't want to overload my programmers with feature requests. That still sort of applies to-day: I want HERMES working and compilable first of all, and to this end, whatever plans I'd published were meticulous write-ups of what needs to be done in order to get us there. I had assumed that was what you meant. That plan, if you haven't seen it already, is on the blog.
On the other hand, though, I'm acutely aware of such things as market positioning. Toward whom do we target HERMES? Thunderbird users? GMail users? Nostalgia users of Eudora? That question, among others, has been preying on my mind for the last three months, and I do believe I've come fairly close to knowing one of a few possible answers. While we will be targeting Eudora users as a matter of course, Postbox is the one eMail client that feature-wise serves as a partial replacement. Now, its UI is miles behind Eudora, but considering what I read on the Postbox website, it's almost as if they were reading Eudora documents when planning out their program, and suggesting improvements. So I'm thinking, let's return the favour. On the blog, you will see what I believe to be the most important features of Postbox and other eMail clients of note, and how we should implement them as well.
Go and learn something about effective project management. One-man-bands
are not it. I am out of here - there are plenty of other things I can do.
On 20/09/18 0:58 , Ted Matavka wrote:
I agree, David. I think the best thing that can happen is get a Hermes 1st release done and "out there" so we're all "on board" with this product.
Gmail changed their interface (again!). I for one would love to have a decent Email Client like Eudora back again instead of being forced to use Outlook with it's Microsoft-centric way of doing things.
Even using PMMail/2 on ArcaOS is a breath of fresh air. A talented gentleman by the name of Paul Smedley ported STUNNEL so I can use my GMail with SSL now. Maybe even IMAP. Anyway, I digress. A modernized Eudora on Windows would be just fantastic. That and Lotus Organizer would be my most used Apps.
Now to make that happen, it needs someone with the vision and the plan to see it through. Which is one thing your Project definitely has on its side. I will certainly be following your progress, and I will spread the word. Unfortunately I'm a bit of a lame duck... when everybody else was learning to do C++ properly I was still playing around with Pascal / Delphi / VB etc. :)
If you can get a nice, integrated 1st Release out there you will really start to get some traction! You are doing great things by taking on this project and getting started. It's a shame there has to be negativity like this. A Project like this needs a different approach and someone to hold it all together. (it is doubtful that a prickly individual who criticizes everything and everyone would be even-tempered enough to manage a project of any sort, so the objection raised is pretty much worthless anyway)
That's a cut above me; ((all I can (write)) is (LISP)), which is perfectly good for one-player games and artificial intelligence stuff, but I'd never call it a "real" programming language. It's more like REXX---but then again, REXX is used in programming mainframes, so I can't knock that class of languages too much either.
Well, thank you for that vote of confidence. Truly. It means a lot and motivates me to see this project through to maturity (I won't say to a conclusion, because the point is NOT to have a conclusion).
Indeed. I wonder if any sort of project to resurrect Eudora would have come together had I not floated the idea and spent valuable time recruiting people and raising funds. I waited for a month to see if someone else would take the initiative, but nobody did.
The only person whose criticism should count, at this point, is Pete Maclean, because he actually put a lot of work into this thing and had well-worded, incisive comments that helped me find the problem and eradicate it.
The problem is, though, that my reactive mind---my subconscious, my bank, etc---does not really work that way. When I secured Maclean's continued participation, I felt like I'd dodged a bullet (rightly so, because this project absolutely could not move an inch without him) but I felt even worse when I got two similarly pessimistic comments from others almost the very day after (made worse by comment two specifically agreeing with comment one). It really did a number on my mental state. I was this close to letting loose with a profanity-laced tirade on why I have lost faith in the human race.
I have become sick to the gills of people pouring cold water on my efforts and doing nothing to contribute. If you think I am a worthless project lead, why don't you put yourself forward, or at least contribute one line of code/one dollar/one paragraph of technical documentation? Otherwise, such criticism has no credibility.
I'll gladly put myself in the "Eudora fanatic" camp. I anxiouly await the first Hermes release....even if it's just a current compiled Eudora version with all the SSL enhancements that allow it to work with all current secure mail servers. From everything I've been reading here, once the "fixed" Eudora code can compile it's Katy bar the door time! To Ted and others....press on and do not be deterred. The Kickstarter page keeps growing!
That's already done, though of course we'll continue making adjustments to the SSL code. The way I see it (chime in if you disagree) is we'll have Maclean working primarily on DLL's and non-MFC code, while Thygesen and Prickett can handle MFC/WxWidgets stuff. As for feature additions, I would think putting Thygesen (primarily) on front-end and Maclean/Prickett on back-end would be most efficient, though of course feel free to allocate amongst yourselves.
I should hope so. I've come very close to a depressive episode because of people's sustained criticism. I know it's a logical fallacy ad hominem to say that the people who have criticised my management style should volunteer for the task themselves, but I don't think it's too much to ask them to involve themselves, at least peripherally, before they start putting me down. And if your response is to tell me to grow a thicker skin: read Blaszczak's comment and pretend he directed that at you. His whole critique can be summed up as, "I have specific, topical knowledge that might mean the difference between life and death for this project, but I'm withholding it, because you have no idea what you're doing---do you? My knowledge will remain withheld until I decide you've pulled your head out of your @®$, in spite of its value even if I'm wrong, and especially if I'm right." And then someone comes along and agrees with him in public, and they feed off each other. Try keeping your cool in the face of such vocal, public criticism.
Honestly, that's the only thing that keeps me above the water line: the knowledge that people trust me enough to give me that kind of money, or to code for me, with the hope that a product will come out of this.
I have NO DOUBT that something GOOD has already and will come of this project. I'm not sure exactly how many Eudora users are on this "eudora-win@hades.listmoms.net" but there seem to be 20-30 of them at least. The only email client I want to abandon Eudora for is Hermes. So, damn the torpedos and full-speed ahead for the Hermes "ship". I'm with you guys all the way!