hamlib-developer

[Hamlib-developer] CI-V

[Kai A. <ka...@su...>]

Hi all,

finally I've got a response from Icom Europe (Germany) but only
"unofficially"...

They don't have any problems with giving away copies of their CI-V
spec to developers but won't give us a written permission to use it
under GPL. The reason for that is the somehow strange attitude of
Icom Japan (they fear some legally exotic issues).

However, I was pointed to their website where is a link to 

	http://www.plicht.de/

where you'll find documentation of CI-V in english language.

Additionally my Icom contact told me about an article in the german
ham magazine "cq DL" 10/1990, pp. 634-638 which was about a reference
implementation of a rig control for an Icom receiver.

What does that mean for us?
On the one hand for legal reasons Icom Japan won't give anybody written
permission for the use of their copyrighted documentation. On the other
hand there are at least two independent sources of this spec to which we
can refer to. So from my point of view I have no problem of using the
original spec but "officiallly" refer to the past publications.

Comments?

Regards, Kai
-- 
Kai Altenfelder, SuSE GmbH, Schanzaeckerstr. 10, D-90443 Nuernberg
Tel.: +49-911-74053-0, Fax:  +49-911-74053-489,  EMail: ka...@su...
Ham: DL3LBA / DK0TUX / DN1TUX             PGP public key available 

Re: [Hamlib-developer] CI-V

[Nate B. <n0...@ne...>]

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:35:42PM +0100, Kai Altenfelder wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> finally I've got a response from Icom Europe (Germany) but only
> "unofficially"...
> 
> They don't have any problems with giving away copies of their CI-V
> spec to developers but won't give us a written permission to use it
> under GPL. The reason for that is the somehow strange attitude of
> Icom Japan (they fear some legally exotic issues).

That's somewhat of a puzzling position to me.  I guess what you're
refering to is documentation already developed by Icom in electronic
form.  In that light their position is understandable.  If what they
mean is that we can't create our own documentation based on their spec
and release that under the GPL, then we have a problem.

> However, I was pointed to their website where is a link to 
> 
> 	http://www.plicht.de/
> 
> where you'll find documentation of CI-V in english language.
> 
> Additionally my Icom contact told me about an article in the german
> ham magazine "cq DL" 10/1990, pp. 634-638 which was about a reference
> implementation of a rig control for an Icom receiver.

Clearly, then, they don't have a problem with independently produced
documentation being made publicly available.

> What does that mean for us?
> On the one hand for legal reasons Icom Japan won't give anybody written
> permission for the use of their copyrighted documentation. On the other
> hand there are at least two independent sources of this spec to which we
> can refer to. So from my point of view I have no problem of using the
> original spec but "officiallly" refer to the past publications.
> 
> Comments?

That's my interpretation.  Or we can produce our own documentation if
the previously referenced authors won't allow us to distribute their
work under the GPL with our project.

So here is how I understand the situation.

Radio manufacturers publish the control command specifications and make
them public.

The radio manuals and/or the computer control specification documents
are likely copyrighted by the manufacturer.

We are allowed to create our own software under the GPL which uses these
commands (typically hex values with arguments sent over a serial line).

We should be able to document these commands and how our software
references them under the same license as our software, GPL.

We cannot use directly the copyrighted work of the manufacturer's
documentation in a GPL document unless they specifically allow that work
to be distributed under the GPL.

The commands and their format are not themselves copyrighted (please
correct me if I'm wrong), so our independent use of those commands and
our independent documentation of those commands should be legal under
"fair use."

Other radio control software has been released under the GPL and as far
as I know, no one has been sued or threatened by the manufacturers as a
result.

We are not delving into the firmware of the radio, thus we don't violate
any copyright the manufacturer holds to the code in the ROM.

hamlib adds value to the existing base of radios out there as well as to
those yet to be produced, so I don't foresee the manufacturers getting
bent out of shape with this project or its documentation.

I think so long as we abide by the rules of "fair use" and give
attribution when we quote some published reference manual, we should be
fine with using the GPL.

Comments?

73, de Nate >>

-- 
 Wireless | Amateur Radio Station N0NB          | "None can love freedom
 Internet | n0...@ne...               | heartily, but good
 Location | Wichita, Kansas USA EM17hs          | men; the rest love not
   Wichita area exams; ham radio; Linux info @  | freedom, but license."
             http://www.qsl.net/n0nb/           | -- John Milton

Re: [Hamlib-developer] CI-V

[Kai A. <ka...@su...>]

Sorry for the delay, I have been on a biz trip for two days.

On Fri, Jan 26, Nate Bargmann wrote:

> > They don't have any problems with giving away copies of their CI-V
> > spec to developers but won't give us a written permission to use it
> > under GPL. The reason for that is the somehow strange attitude of
> > Icom Japan (they fear some legally exotic issues).
> 
> That's somewhat of a puzzling position to me.  I guess what you're
> refering to is documentation already developed by Icom in electronic
> form.  In that light their position is understandable.  If what they
> mean is that we can't create our own documentation based on their spec
> and release that under the GPL, then we have a problem.

No, the latter is not what I understood from my phone call. What they
won't give us is a written permission to use their documentation neither
as a printout nor electronically. But they provide us with printouts, if
we wan't to have those.

> > 	http://www.plicht.de/
> > 
> > where you'll find documentation of CI-V in english language.
> > 
> > Additionally my Icom contact told me about an article in the german
> > ham magazine "cq DL" 10/1990, pp. 634-638 which was about a reference
> > implementation of a rig control for an Icom receiver.
> 
> Clearly, then, they don't have a problem with independently produced
> documentation being made publicly available.

Right, that was my impression, too.


> So here is how I understand the situation.
> 
> Radio manufacturers publish the control command specifications and make
> them public.
> 
> The radio manuals and/or the computer control specification documents
> are likely copyrighted by the manufacturer.
> 
> We are allowed to create our own software under the GPL which uses these
> commands (typically hex values with arguments sent over a serial line).
> 
> We should be able to document these commands and how our software
> references them under the same license as our software, GPL.
> 
> We cannot use directly the copyrighted work of the manufacturer's
> documentation in a GPL document unless they specifically allow that work
> to be distributed under the GPL.

Agreed.

> The commands and their format are not themselves copyrighted (please
> correct me if I'm wrong), so our independent use of those commands and
> our independent documentation of those commands should be legal under
> "fair use."

Agreed, as we also could have re-engineered the command's protocol.

> Other radio control software has been released under the GPL and as far
> as I know, no one has been sued or threatened by the manufacturers as a
> result.

Agreed.

> We are not delving into the firmware of the radio, thus we don't violate
> any copyright the manufacturer holds to the code in the ROM.

Agreed. Additionally, every RX/TX comes with a printed manual that
describes the protocol of its CAT interface (at least this applies for all
my Yaesu radios).

> hamlib adds value to the existing base of radios out there as well as to
> those yet to be produced, so I don't foresee the manufacturers getting
> bent out of shape with this project or its documentation.
> 
> I think so long as we abide by the rules of "fair use" and give
> attribution when we quote some published reference manual, we should be
> fine with using the GPL.

I second this. Provide me with your postal address(es) and I will send 
you a copy of my CI-V.

Regards, Kai
-- 
Kai Altenfelder, SuSE GmbH, Schanzaeckerstr. 10, D-90443 Nuernberg
Tel.: +49-911-74053-0, Fax:  +49-911-74053-489,  EMail: ka...@su...
Ham: DL3LBA / DK0TUX / DN1TUX             PGP public key available 

Re: [Hamlib-developer] CI-V

[Stephane F. <f4...@fr...>]

Kai Altenfelder wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 26, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> 
> > > They don't have any problems with giving away copies of their CI-V
> > > spec to developers but won't give us a written permission to use it
> > > under GPL. The reason for that is the somehow strange attitude of
> > > Icom Japan (they fear some legally exotic issues).
> > 
> > That's somewhat of a puzzling position to me.  I guess what you're
> > refering to is documentation already developed by Icom in electronic
> > form.  In that light their position is understandable.  If what they
> > mean is that we can't create our own documentation based on their spec
> > and release that under the GPL, then we have a problem.
> 
> No, the latter is not what I understood from my phone call. What they
> won't give us is a written permission to use their documentation neither
> as a printout nor electronically. But they provide us with printouts, if
> we wan't to have those.
> 
  I'm not sure about what are their fears. Did they understand that our
  goal is NOT to release their documentation under GPL (which would be
  a copyright violation), but only use a "printout" (electronically forms
  may leak) so we can develop the code controlling the radios they sell?
  And BTW, they already released somehow such documention for the PCR1000,
  available at http://www.philtered.net/icomlib.phtml

> > > 	http://www.plicht.de/
> > > 
> > > where you'll find documentation of CI-V in english language.
> > > 
	The Ekki's site (DF4OR) is a golden mine! Actually, I'm using it
	since I started to work on the Icom backend. The command list
	looks complete, but we still have no clue which rig supports
	which one of those. Also, the Hamlib project is referenced on Ekki's
	site.

> > So here is how I understand the situation.
> > 
> > Radio manufacturers publish the control command specifications and make
> > them public.
> > 
> > The radio manuals and/or the computer control specification documents
> > are likely copyrighted by the manufacturer.
> > 
> > We are allowed to create our own software under the GPL which uses these
> > commands (typically hex values with arguments sent over a serial line).
> > 
> > We should be able to document these commands and how our software
> > references them under the same license as our software, GPL.
> > 
> > We cannot use directly the copyrighted work of the manufacturer's
> > documentation in a GPL document unless they specifically allow that work
> > to be distributed under the GPL.
> 
> Agreed.
[snip]
> 

Agreed too. A mail is definitely less confusing than a phone call.

> Agreed. Additionally, every RX/TX comes with a printed manual that
> describes the protocol of its CAT interface (at least this applies for all
> my Yaesu radios).
> 
  Lucky you ;-)  mine is pretty scarce (Icom).

>
> > I think so long as we abide by the rules of "fair use" and give
> > attribution when we quote some published reference manual, we should be
> > fine with using the GPL.
>
> I second this. Provide me with your postal address(es) and I will send 
> you a copy of my CI-V.
> 

If Nate doesn't mind, I'd love to receive a copy of your CI-V too. Thanks.

Regards,
-- 
Stephane / F4CFE

Re: [Hamlib-developer] CI-V

[Nate B. <n0...@ne...>]

On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:17:03PM +0100, Stephane Fillod wrote:
> >
> > I second this. Provide me with your postal address(es) and I will send 
> > you a copy of my CI-V.
> > 
> 
> If Nate doesn't mind, I'd love to receive a copy of your CI-V too. Thanks.

Actually, if Kai forwards the copies to you, Stephane, it would be more
useful as you're working on the actual code.  I'm working on a docbook 
manual this week and I'm going to try to have a couple of chapters
available for critique by week's end.

Right now I have no plans to include individual radio commands in the
Hamlib manual, however it might be a nice reference to have from the Web
pages, though.  However, I think some material is already on the Web so
links would suffice.  So I think Kai should refrain from sending me anything
by surface mail and contact you instead.  Thanks for the offer, Kai!

73, de Nate >>

-- 
 Wireless | Amateur Radio Station N0NB          | "None can love freedom
 Internet | n0...@ne...               | heartily, but good
 Location | Wichita, Kansas USA EM17hs          | men; the rest love not
   Wichita area exams; ham radio; Linux info @  | freedom, but license."
             http://www.qsl.net/n0nb/           | -- John Milton