I have had an agenda to put an end to the round system for a long time, because in my view, the round system is problematic in any RPG system, because it causes an unrealistic mechanical clockwork element to the combat. Recently an idea about replacing rounds all together with phases, instead of making phases part of a round, has been discussed, and I think we should take this conversation to this forum.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
The basic idea is that instead of having the phases go one, two, three, they could instead go by the same number of HP every phase. This creates two problems:
1st, there is no longer a way to make used HP ready again.
2nd, this would prevent high hit-point bonuses and actions.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
1st, to make HP ready again, we would have a rule that says every phase one used hit point becomes ready.
2nd, to allow high hit point action, we allow wind-up hit points (hit points set aside to do damage,) to be used at any time, reguardless if it exceeds the hit point limit of the phase. (Non-attack hit point actions can be accumulative anyways.)
Of course, then this brings into the question: just what is the Hit point limit of the phase? Well, it needs to be higher than how many hit points are recovered per round, other wise there's no performing enhancing effect of having more hit points. But, it needs to be as small as possible, to prevent player indecision. So the smallest possible number greater than one is 2 hit points is the most a character can use in a phase.
This also means we ditch the rule about needing to spend at least one hit point per phase, since the most you can spend at a time is two hit points, and you involuntarily recover one used per phase, if you spend no HP, you'll fall behind in your manuevering and wind-up bonuses.
The summary of this post is: No rounds. Phases have a maximum limit of using two Hit Points per phase. One hit point becomes ready from the used HP every phase. "Wind up" hit points can be used to do damage in additon to the maximum 2 hitponts.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
We playtested this idea and found it to be way too slow, because it essentially just uses half-second rounds instead of 2 second rounds. What we determined was that what we really need to do is make our current "1,2,3" phase/round system flow better.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
To make our rounds flow better, what we need to do is smooth out the transition between rounds. For example, we want to let "wound up" hit points remain "wound up" into the beginning of the next round.
The problem with this is that then suddently the defensive manuevering bonus disapears and the would-up character gets an instant unrealistic advantage that throws the game off balance and adds a more extream distinction between rounds.
My solution: We have two kind of wind-up hit points, one for doing damage and one for manuevering, and they both get carried on over to the next round. Wind up hit points for Damage can be used at any time reguardless of the phase.
Wind up hit points for manuevering are very different. What they are is hit points that are in the manuevering section, but haven't been used on a specific target yet. The way it works is that IF you have any wound up manuvering hit points, every phase you do NOT manuver, one of your wound-up manuvering hit points becomes "other used." At the end of the round, your hitpoints in your manuvering hit point section can become wound-up instead of going back to "ready," so that you can maintain your defensive bonus from the last round incase the guy next to you happens to have his hitpoints from the last round wound up to decapitate you.
I think this will work well, be realistic, and fade out the mechanical clicking side-effect of rounds.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
The reason why wind-up manuvering hit points slowly become other used if the character is not manuvering, is because they get that total defensive bonus because they are supposed to still be in motion. As soon as they aren't actively manuvering, that bonus from being in motion from the last round deteriorates.
Also, using wound up manuvering hit points to manuver against a certain target WOULD have the phase hit point limitation, UNLIKE hit points wound up to do damage.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I beleive this is a good step toward smoothing out the system. It also has potential with the phase only system, but we have a lot to tackle right now. I don't think we have time to develop this yet.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
It occured to me that we don't have to use a second type of wind-up to make the idea work.
What if we said that all manuevering and wind-up bonuses can carry into the next round. (No special wind-up rule for manuevering.) But, any phase in which the character has any ready hit points, and does not use at least one to manuever, then one of that character's manuevering points automatically becomes other used (inspite of what round he orignially put that hitpoint into manuvering.)
This is better than "wind-up manuevering" because A: it's much less complicated, and B: making all of the offensive manuevering bonus dissapear at the end of the round still makes it very mechanical...this allows the offensive manuvering bonuse to linger from round to round, deteriorating only as the character intentionally does not move.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Here's the latest, we were playtesting and found something that worked:
#1 Up to half of your hit point bonuses (from maneuvering and wind-up) can carry into the next round without causing significant problems, but more than half causes major problems.
So we should allow half of hit point bonuses to be carried into the next round. This is assuming that the first hitpoint spent in a phase is spent on maneuvering or maneuvering bonus is reduced by one (the former maneuvering hit point goes into used hit points).
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
The prominent belief is that the main problem with eliminating rounds is that you no longer refresh hit points, but there is also a huge problem with not being able to keep track of time for things like drowning rules etc.
Mainly we have been focussing on the first problem. That isn't a bad thing, but need to be aware of all the issues.
Here's another idea that, in the context of the rules we are now focusing on, could eliminate rounds:
The Hit points that are moved out of the Maneuvering pool always go to Ready (you may be allowed to take HP out of Maneuvering and Wind when ever you want), and when you rest (which is an interruptable action), you recover Other Used HP. All of your Other Used HP must be recovered before Stun is allowed to be recovered.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
It sounds pretty cool, a few questions come to mind:
Why do the "other used" require resting? Do the wind up hitpoints go to ready or other used when used to attack with? Why not have other used just go into stun damage, and get rid of the Other used section all together?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Basicly, the current system uses rounds to define time, and phases to define speed. Other used are hitpoints that need time to recover and are otherwise automaticly recovered. Stun are hitpoints that require you to slow down (by spending hitpoints to rest, you are unable to do as much within a phase or round) to recover. Hitpoints are equal to speed/time.
To solve this, we can say that you can spend HP in a phase by transfering it out of Other used and into Ready. I believe this would require new definitions for phases and rounds, and most likely the removal of rounds alltogather.
I am saying that you can't automaticly recover hitpoints (other used) IN COMBAT because you need to catch you breath and slow down. In fact, it is an important strategical factor. In the current RPS everyone is assumed to take breathers every two seconds (which may not be all that unrealistic, but we realy need to analyze it's validity).
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
Hit Points is how much power you have. Rounds is simply the medium by which we compare power.
This does turn into speed, since it's described in terms of time.
So the reason why we get all of the hit points back at the end of the round isn't because we're resting, but because it's a new round, and we are in a new diffrent stage of comparing power.
Each round, Strength (hit points) is manefested once. Every round, everyone uses thier strenght one entire time. The use this strength in fractions, and those fractions are called hitpoints.
Anyhow, I suspect you are describing a complication beyond this...
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
My question is, IF you SPEND a hit point to recover from used, doesn't that hit point you spent become used? If it does, then there isn't any way to recover at all that I can see.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
The concept I am trying to introduce is to move a hitpoint out of Other Used and put it into ready, with that hitpoint's movement being counted as the use of a hitpoint. So in phase three you could recover up to three Used hitpoints.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
We definitely need to ditch that rule that says "your
manuvering bonus goes down by one every phase you intentionally don't manuver." That rule complicates hit point flow big time.
I think we should use the most simple possible phase system, 1-2-3, with only two frills:
#1: wind up, for the obvious reason that 1-2-3 falls
apart without it,
#2: I think we should have a rule (possibly an optional rule,) that says:
"At least half of your hit points must return to ready at the end of each round." (As opposed to all of your hit points at the end of each round.)
This does a good job of blending phases without introducing complex manuevering deterioration rules.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I beleive the two mentioned rules to be essential to the current RPS and I will playtest them soon. We will be playtesting a lot of rules soon, so it may take a while to finish.
I agree that the constant maneuvering hit point requirement muddles the system. After playtesting we realized that it causes too many things to be done on a per phase basis.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I believe the current system of phases is dependant on rounds an cannot replace them. We will have to use something other than 1-2-3 phases.
If we are trying to say that low-hitpoint actions happen more quickly than high-hitpoint actions, then phases need to gradually ascend like in the 1-2-3 system. I am not sure that phases should start at with a one hit point limit. The ascension of phases cannot rely on when everyone runs out of hitpoints, because then it would be round reliant. This means we need to develop rules for avoiding running out of hitpoints (aside from damaging all of your hitpoints).
Any ideas?
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I have had an agenda to put an end to the round system for a long time, because in my view, the round system is problematic in any RPG system, because it causes an unrealistic mechanical clockwork element to the combat. Recently an idea about replacing rounds all together with phases, instead of making phases part of a round, has been discussed, and I think we should take this conversation to this forum.
The basic idea is that instead of having the phases go one, two, three, they could instead go by the same number of HP every phase. This creates two problems:
1st, there is no longer a way to make used HP ready again.
2nd, this would prevent high hit-point bonuses and actions.
The proposed concept:
1st, to make HP ready again, we would have a rule that says every phase one used hit point becomes ready.
2nd, to allow high hit point action, we allow wind-up hit points (hit points set aside to do damage,) to be used at any time, reguardless if it exceeds the hit point limit of the phase. (Non-attack hit point actions can be accumulative anyways.)
Of course, then this brings into the question: just what is the Hit point limit of the phase? Well, it needs to be higher than how many hit points are recovered per round, other wise there's no performing enhancing effect of having more hit points. But, it needs to be as small as possible, to prevent player indecision. So the smallest possible number greater than one is 2 hit points is the most a character can use in a phase.
This also means we ditch the rule about needing to spend at least one hit point per phase, since the most you can spend at a time is two hit points, and you involuntarily recover one used per phase, if you spend no HP, you'll fall behind in your manuevering and wind-up bonuses.
The summary of this post is: No rounds. Phases have a maximum limit of using two Hit Points per phase. One hit point becomes ready from the used HP every phase. "Wind up" hit points can be used to do damage in additon to the maximum 2 hitponts.
We playtested this idea and found it to be way too slow, because it essentially just uses half-second rounds instead of 2 second rounds. What we determined was that what we really need to do is make our current "1,2,3" phase/round system flow better.
To make our rounds flow better, what we need to do is smooth out the transition between rounds. For example, we want to let "wound up" hit points remain "wound up" into the beginning of the next round.
The problem with this is that then suddently the defensive manuevering bonus disapears and the would-up character gets an instant unrealistic advantage that throws the game off balance and adds a more extream distinction between rounds.
My solution: We have two kind of wind-up hit points, one for doing damage and one for manuevering, and they both get carried on over to the next round. Wind up hit points for Damage can be used at any time reguardless of the phase.
Wind up hit points for manuevering are very different. What they are is hit points that are in the manuevering section, but haven't been used on a specific target yet. The way it works is that IF you have any wound up manuvering hit points, every phase you do NOT manuver, one of your wound-up manuvering hit points becomes "other used." At the end of the round, your hitpoints in your manuvering hit point section can become wound-up instead of going back to "ready," so that you can maintain your defensive bonus from the last round incase the guy next to you happens to have his hitpoints from the last round wound up to decapitate you.
I think this will work well, be realistic, and fade out the mechanical clicking side-effect of rounds.
The reason why wind-up manuvering hit points slowly become other used if the character is not manuvering, is because they get that total defensive bonus because they are supposed to still be in motion. As soon as they aren't actively manuvering, that bonus from being in motion from the last round deteriorates.
Also, using wound up manuvering hit points to manuver against a certain target WOULD have the phase hit point limitation, UNLIKE hit points wound up to do damage.
I beleive this is a good step toward smoothing out the system. It also has potential with the phase only system, but we have a lot to tackle right now. I don't think we have time to develop this yet.
It occured to me that we don't have to use a second type of wind-up to make the idea work.
What if we said that all manuevering and wind-up bonuses can carry into the next round. (No special wind-up rule for manuevering.) But, any phase in which the character has any ready hit points, and does not use at least one to manuever, then one of that character's manuevering points automatically becomes other used (inspite of what round he orignially put that hitpoint into manuvering.)
This is better than "wind-up manuevering" because A: it's much less complicated, and B: making all of the offensive manuevering bonus dissapear at the end of the round still makes it very mechanical...this allows the offensive manuvering bonuse to linger from round to round, deteriorating only as the character intentionally does not move.
Here's the latest, we were playtesting and found something that worked:
#1 Up to half of your hit point bonuses (from maneuvering and wind-up) can carry into the next round without causing significant problems, but more than half causes major problems.
So we should allow half of hit point bonuses to be carried into the next round. This is assuming that the first hitpoint spent in a phase is spent on maneuvering or maneuvering bonus is reduced by one (the former maneuvering hit point goes into used hit points).
The prominent belief is that the main problem with eliminating rounds is that you no longer refresh hit points, but there is also a huge problem with not being able to keep track of time for things like drowning rules etc.
Mainly we have been focussing on the first problem. That isn't a bad thing, but need to be aware of all the issues.
Here's another idea that, in the context of the rules we are now focusing on, could eliminate rounds:
The Hit points that are moved out of the Maneuvering pool always go to Ready (you may be allowed to take HP out of Maneuvering and Wind when ever you want), and when you rest (which is an interruptable action), you recover Other Used HP. All of your Other Used HP must be recovered before Stun is allowed to be recovered.
It sounds pretty cool, a few questions come to mind:
Why do the "other used" require resting? Do the wind up hitpoints go to ready or other used when used to attack with? Why not have other used just go into stun damage, and get rid of the Other used section all together?
Basicly, the current system uses rounds to define time, and phases to define speed. Other used are hitpoints that need time to recover and are otherwise automaticly recovered. Stun are hitpoints that require you to slow down (by spending hitpoints to rest, you are unable to do as much within a phase or round) to recover. Hitpoints are equal to speed/time.
To solve this, we can say that you can spend HP in a phase by transfering it out of Other used and into Ready. I believe this would require new definitions for phases and rounds, and most likely the removal of rounds alltogather.
I am saying that you can't automaticly recover hitpoints (other used) IN COMBAT because you need to catch you breath and slow down. In fact, it is an important strategical factor. In the current RPS everyone is assumed to take breathers every two seconds (which may not be all that unrealistic, but we realy need to analyze it's validity).
My perception of rounds is a little different.
Hit Points is how much power you have. Rounds is simply the medium by which we compare power.
This does turn into speed, since it's described in terms of time.
So the reason why we get all of the hit points back at the end of the round isn't because we're resting, but because it's a new round, and we are in a new diffrent stage of comparing power.
Each round, Strength (hit points) is manefested once. Every round, everyone uses thier strenght one entire time. The use this strength in fractions, and those fractions are called hitpoints.
Anyhow, I suspect you are describing a complication beyond this...
My question is, IF you SPEND a hit point to recover from used, doesn't that hit point you spent become used? If it does, then there isn't any way to recover at all that I can see.
The concept I am trying to introduce is to move a hitpoint out of Other Used and put it into ready, with that hitpoint's movement being counted as the use of a hitpoint. So in phase three you could recover up to three Used hitpoints.
We definitely need to ditch that rule that says "your
manuvering bonus goes down by one every phase you intentionally don't manuver." That rule complicates hit point flow big time.
I think we should use the most simple possible phase system, 1-2-3, with only two frills:
#1: wind up, for the obvious reason that 1-2-3 falls
apart without it,
#2: I think we should have a rule (possibly an optional rule,) that says:
"At least half of your hit points must return to ready at the end of each round." (As opposed to all of your hit points at the end of each round.)
This does a good job of blending phases without introducing complex manuevering deterioration rules.
I beleive the two mentioned rules to be essential to the current RPS and I will playtest them soon. We will be playtesting a lot of rules soon, so it may take a while to finish.
I agree that the constant maneuvering hit point requirement muddles the system. After playtesting we realized that it causes too many things to be done on a per phase basis.
I believe the current system of phases is dependant on rounds an cannot replace them. We will have to use something other than 1-2-3 phases.
If we are trying to say that low-hitpoint actions happen more quickly than high-hitpoint actions, then phases need to gradually ascend like in the 1-2-3 system. I am not sure that phases should start at with a one hit point limit. The ascension of phases cannot rely on when everyone runs out of hitpoints, because then it would be round reliant. This means we need to develop rules for avoiding running out of hitpoints (aside from damaging all of your hitpoints).
Any ideas?