Thread: RE: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do?
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From: Alex C. <al...@ar...> - 2001-02-28 08:57:28
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I'd recommend doing a maths degree, with some programming modules, rather that a CS degree with some maths. (IMO CS is an applied form of maths). 1) Maths degrees don't tie you down to computing. 2) I feel advanced maths is significantly harder to pick up than CS 3) Most of the interesting advance topics in CS are increasingly inaccessible unless you know a lot of maths. Alex Clarke, Programmer Argonaut Games PLC -----Original Message----- From: Michael Jones [mailto:mic...@st...] Sent: 27 February 2001 23:55 To: gda...@li... Subject: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do? I'm a 17 year old hobbyist programmer, keen to get into games development. Most of the stuff I've done is releated to games in some way or another (3D graphics, mechanics, sound, lighting...). My career plan is to do a decent university course, and then look out for a job in the industry. I have not decided which course to do yet. Physics is my favorite subject at school, so physics and engineering are obvious course choices. I have considered computer science, but I don't know whether I would enjoy it (it sounds fairly unapplied from what I've heard). I've seen game development courses, but I don't know how reputable they are, and I haven't seen any in the UK (where I live). Big brother, who works for Empire Interactive, tells me that general programming jobs now often require a CS degree, and that the game industry may go the same way in a few years. Do other people make the same prediction? It would be really helpful to hear what experiences people have had with university courses, how relevant they have been, and whether they considered it an advantage when applying for jobs. |
From: David P. <dav...@vi...> - 2001-02-28 09:57:40
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There are a few game development courses in the UK, one of the best known being at the University of Abertay here in Dundee, offering both a degree and MSc, and covering most of the important aspects of game programming. It's probably worth looking here to get an idea of what this kind of course offers. There are a few others around the country too, including Teeside, Liverpool, and possibly Southampton, although some of them may concentrate more on multimedia aspects than programming. A search on the web should turn up a more comprehensive list. David Paterson -----Original Message----- From: Michael Jones [mailto:mic...@st...] Sent: 27 February 2001 23:55 To: gda...@li... Subject: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do? I'm a 17 year old hobbyist programmer, keen to get into games development. Most of the stuff I've done is releated to games in some way or another (3D graphics, mechanics, sound, lighting...). My career plan is to do a decent university course, and then look out for a job in the industry. I have not decided which course to do yet. Physics is my favorite subject at school, so physics and engineering are obvious course choices. I have considered computer science, but I don't know whether I would enjoy it (it sounds fairly unapplied from what I've heard). I've seen game development courses, but I don't know how reputable they are, and I haven't seen any in the UK (where I live). Big brother, who works for Empire Interactive, tells me that general programming jobs now often require a CS degree, and that the game industry may go the same way in a few years. Do other people make the same prediction? It would be really helpful to hear what experiences people have had with university courses, how relevant they have been, and whether they considered it an advantage when applying for jobs. |
From: Stuart C. <Stu...@vi...> - 2001-02-28 11:03:59
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I highly recommend you go to University and study what interests you most. If you already have self-taught programming skills, and an interest in physics, you should (in my opinion) pursue that course. You can't study physics without learning a lot of maths - and it's all the cool applied maths stufff too, so it gives you a solid grounding in several key areas. Being able to bring strong physics/maths as well as strong programming abilities *should* make you a more desirable asset in the industry! Stuart. Stuart Capewell Programming Manager. Visual Sciences Ltd. T: +44 (0) 1382 422100. M:+44 (0) 7990 540663. F: +44 (0) 1382 422101. Stu...@vi... http://www.vissci.com <http://www.vissci.com/> The above e-mail(s) content is intended for the named addressee(s) only. Its contents and any subsequent attachment(s) are private and confidential and should not be read, copied, transmitted or disclosed by or to any other individual without the written prior permission of Visual Sciences Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Jones [mailto:mic...@st...] Sent: 27 February 2001 23:55 To: gda...@li... Subject: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do? I'm a 17 year old hobbyist programmer, keen to get into games development. Most of the stuff I've done is releated to games in some way or another (3D graphics, mechanics, sound, lighting...). My career plan is to do a decent university course, and then look out for a job in the industry. I have not decided which course to do yet. Physics is my favorite subject at school, so physics and engineering are obvious course choices. I have considered computer science, but I don't know whether I would enjoy it (it sounds fairly unapplied from what I've heard). I've seen game development courses, but I don't know how reputable they are, and I haven't seen any in the UK (where I live). Big brother, who works for Empire Interactive, tells me that general programming jobs now often require a CS degree, and that the game industry may go the same way in a few years. Do other people make the same prediction? It would be really helpful to hear what experiences people have had with university courses, how relevant they have been, and whether they considered it an advantage when applying for jobs. |
From: Alan H. <ala...@hf...> - 2001-02-28 13:35:22
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From: "Stuart Capewell" <Stu...@vi...> Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do? > I highly recommend you go to University and study what interests you most. > > If you already have self-taught programming skills, and an interest in > physics, you should (in my opinion) pursue that course. You can't study > physics without learning a lot of maths - and it's all the cool applied > maths stufff too, so it gives you a solid grounding in several key areas. > > Being able to bring strong physics/maths as well as strong programming > abilities *should* make you a more desirable asset in the industry! I would generalize this even more. A solid background in any scientific field can be of great value to you. Knowing the whole process of science, not just math, prepares you to be the type of problem solver people like me are always trying to find. -- Alan Hurshman |
From: Graham R. <gr...@se...> - 2001-02-28 15:21:50
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Alan wrote, > I would generalize this even more. A solid background > in any scientific field can be of great value to you. Knowing > the whole process of science, not just math, prepares you > to be the type of problem solver people like me are always > trying to find. > > -- > Alan Hurshman I agree with this in general, but I would say that you have to explore many different areas, and school isn't going to bring them together. It won't do to simply do homework and pass tests in *any* given field. You have to actively think about how science, math, art, etc. work together to solve problems in game development. You'll be more successful if you do a lot of independent exploration. Take what you learned in different classes and actually go and solve a game development problem at least two nights a week, instead of just partying *every* night. (Notice the emphasis on *every*. It is *very* important to party sometimes!) Graham Rhodes |
From: Peter W. <Pet...@vi...> - 2001-02-28 11:37:59
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> > game development courses, but I don't know how reputable > > they are, and I haven't seen any in the UK (where I live). > > I would tend away from game specific courses personally. That's my feeling too. Writing games means stealing ideas from all sorts of disciplines, and any games course that you take probably won't be covering the same areas that'll be useful in a few years time. If I went through University again I might even go for a Physics or Maths degree course rather than the CS that I actually took (I know that's music to Stuart C's ears ;)). The other thing I'd bear in mind is that an awful lot of people do games for a few years, and then go off and work in another industry, and it'll be a lot easier to do that with a general degree than a games-specific one. I suppose the bottom line is that games companies are looking for, to borrow a Joel quote, people who are 'smart and get stuff done'. The details of your qualifications aren't important, as long as they show you can learn, and can work hard. A Stuart said, concentrate on what you like studying, if your heart isn't in the subject and you're just doing it for a job, it'll be very hard to make it through the 3 or 4 years of the degree. Peter |
From: Blake S. <bse...@ro...> - 2001-02-28 19:01:49
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> > > I would generalize this even more. A solid background > > in any scientific field can be of great value to you. Knowing > > the whole process of science, not just math, prepares you > > to be the type of problem solver people like me are always > > trying to find. > > > > -- > > Alan Hurshman > > I agree with this in general, but I would say that you have > to explore many > different areas, and school isn't going to bring them > together. It won't do > to simply do homework and pass tests in *any* given field. You have to > actively think about how science, math, art, etc. work > together to solve > problems in game development. You'll be more successful if > you do a lot of > independent exploration. Take what you learned in different > classes and > actually go and solve a game development problem at least two > nights a week, > instead of just partying *every* night. (Notice the emphasis > on *every*. It > is *very* important to party sometimes!) > > Graham Rhodes > I'd actually take this a step further... You like Physics, by all means persue that. But keep in mind the context of where you want to end up and what you want to do. Alan is right that a solid background in any scientific field will give you a good foundation, and if you like physics then you'll get that and the math that is very valuable to a game production environment. I like what Graham is saying that you should explore many different areas- take classes in history and creative writing and philosophy. They will broaden your perspective and open up possibilities that you may not have considered. Now this next part may not be popular with this list: take some business courses! Yeah, the business school is full of a bunch of partying dorks, but the games industry is a business and understanding the context of your role in the industry and being able to converse with the company owner(s) in their own language will not only aid your professional progression during your career but it will also give you an understanding of many company decisions that too few employees in any position seem to understand. It makes your career easier, because you understand it as a career and a growing progession of experiences rather than just this job and that job. And when the time comes where you're fed up with working at poorly organized sweat shops, you'll know exactly how to slice a piece of the pie for yourself. Also, look for a school that has a physics/graphics visualization lab you can work at. Doing the visualizations for their research projects will really help you apply the theory you learn during your daily classes. -Blake |
From: Chuck W. <Ch...@ki...> - 2001-02-28 20:23:15
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It seems that the question of how useful a formal degree is to game programming is a never-ending debate in the industry... and it almost always gets started by a teenage student looking for advice. Maybe someone should print a book on 'So you want to be a game programmer?' with a collection of these perspectives... Anyhow, here's my advice, YMMV and all that: A formal degree is a investment and you should make sure you are making the investment that is right for you. The game industry is a fickle and fast-changing place and you want to make sure you have marketable skills for the long haul either in or out of the industry. Getting a degree right after high-school is FAR easier in most cases than going back to school after starting professional life, so I would NOT suggest skipping college and going straight to work. Most of what you get out of a degree depends on how much you put into it--just attending the required classes and doing the minimum will get you a degree, but you won't get that much out of it. Take advantage of the freedom and environment to learn as much as you can. The chance to do so will not likely come again in your lifetime, at least not nearly as easily. The most important thing you can do in college is learn how to learn... If you are wanting to program software for a living, a Computer Science degree is a good place to start, but no matter what your degree, you'll have a lot of leeway in what to take and how to structure your degree. A strong background in math and physics will help in game programming, and taking a broad selection of software classes helps to give you a wide range of tools and techniques to draw on. You will have a lot of 'boring required stuff' to take no matter what your degree, but I think you'll find that much of the required background courses can be useful for games and your career in general: Mythology, history, science & technology, languages, creative writing, communication skills, art courses, etc. I saw a comment in the thread about a compilers class and algorithmic complexity (big-O notation) not being "applicable" to games... crazy talk if you ask me. You aren't likely to write a full-blown language compiler in a game company, but text parsing is a constant requirement of tools and even some gameplay, and a solid understanding of compiler technology can help with debugging techniques. Algorithmic complexity is a great tool for judging if a given solution is really a win or not and gives a language to discuss the relative merits of a solution with others. If nothing else, you will see references to big-O notation everywhere in the academic journals, which are a useful source of new ideas, and books on libraries like the Standard C++ Library/STL and you should be able to decipher their meaning. Simulations courses focus on simulating systems such as computers or business models, but the techniques are useful for all sorts of stochastic modeling, including game processes. Formal AI classes teach a lot of techniques which are usually beyond the scope of game AI, but more and more of those ideas are being applied to games as the CPU budgets are less graphics-focused. Systems architecture and operating systems courses give you insight into the platforms and their strengths and weakness... Graphics courses cover a broad range of background, color science, digital signal processing, linear algebra, collision detection, spatial organization, and so on. Generally speaking, CS degrees don't primarily teach you about programming... they teach you algorithms, theory, approaches, techniques, and background. Programming you learn on your own for the most part while doing projects and homework. I'd strongly recommend that you do some part-time professional programming during school or as summer internships, and I'd suggest not looking ONLY at game programming companies. Game companies are often chaotic, time-pressured environments and while you'll get some industry experience out of it, you probably won't learn good professional programming habits--often quite the opposite. A non-game company with a stronger emphasis on software engineering is likely to do a better job of making you a good coder. In the interest of open disclosure, I should mention that I have both a CS Bachelor's degree and a Masters of Science in CS. I went back to school part-time to get the Masters, which was both a great help by giving me focus on what was applicable to my career and my interests -and- a real strain on my work, family, and personal life... I've worked both in and out of the game industry. -Chuck Walbourn Director of Technology Kinesoft Development |
From: Marc H. <ma...@ia...> - 2001-02-28 21:05:33
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On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Chuck Walbourn wrote: > I saw a comment in the thread about a compilers class and algorithmic > complexity (big-O notation) not being "applicable" to games... crazy talk > if you ask me. You aren't likely to write a full-blown language compiler in Ooops. Needed a ton more smileys I see. I thought the following paragraph had explained that I thought those things were very necessary. Big-O is incredibly useful. I have also used my compiler course a lot both directly in writing parsers, and in the general ideas of state machines/DFAs/etc. <good stuff about CS snipped> Ill be more explicit next time :). -- Marc Hernandez |
From: Martin S. <ms...@he...> - 2001-02-28 22:53:38
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RE: Off topic: Which university course should I do?>Getting a degree right after high-school is FAR easier in most cases than going back to school after starting professional life, so I would NOT suggest > skipping college and going straight to work. Listen to this man, I've been trying to get through a degree at the open university ( uni by mail for the americans :) for the last couple of years coding professionally the whole time cos I dropped out of uni, . If you think you have no life studying for a degree, this takes the biscuit. Then again it does work out quite nice for games / graphics coding as you get a more general degree and get to cover whatever gets your fancy with a bit of physics bit of pure maths etc, Personally what held me back is the lack of maths skills, not formal CS stuff (still very useful just easier to pick up from books) . ALL of the interesting game / graphics stuff needs some pretty serious maths skills and these are definately best learnt with plenty of people around to help you get a hang of it. Just my 2p, from a non degree'd up (yet) coder. Martin |
From: Martin F. <mf...@ac...> - 2001-03-01 17:53:23
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I did a degree, BSc Visualisation at the University of Teesside which required in the first and second years some art modules. This is believe has changed since the introduction the BA version of the course but at the time Abertay in Dundee and Teesside were the only universities offering 3D programming degree's with an orientation to games programming. In the final year I studied AI which was a CS module and concentrated entirely on programming and producing technical demos to get me into the industry. In my experience games programming degree's do not teach you to write games but they do teach you 3D and they teach you to think and problem solve on your own two feet. (As does any degree ;-) Of course you get out of University what you put in. My advice would be to get what you can out of University, enjoy the social life of course but use University to get as much information that you want out of it, and information / skills that are going to be useful in the industry and to an employer. I don't agree with your brother. The games industry is about talent, games are pulled screaming into existance by the talent of the people working on them, not through any real what you would call planning. The goal posts are always moving technically and the game design evolves through any number of influences, pressures and occasionally 'wow we can do this with the hardware, how cool is that?' Degree's are useful because there's a classification to your name that you earn't all on your own but without a couple of nice competant -> impressive demo's you're unlikely to find a job in the games industry. If you've got talent, enthusiasm and determination a couple of cool demos then a degree doesn't really matter. I actually got my break in the industry before I finished Univeristy though I saw out the last couple of months of my degree (would have been silly not to at that stage) and had started work on a conversion for Acclaim (who were 5 miles down the road) before I knew the degree classification. I don't think there's a degree out there that will teach you to write games. Games programming degree's or certainly the one at Teesside however did teach alot of techniques that even now are new to the profession, free form deformation, implicit surfaces etc.. as well as the neccesary basics, 3D pipeline, clipping, texturing, lighting, collision etc.. If you want to go into physics (and that is and will continue IMO to be a high demand area for recruiting) I wouldn't really neccesarily recommend a 'games programming' degree though have a look around by all means. A physics / maths degree will be very useful. If you can already program compentantly, C / C++ then a CS degree isn't I believe going to teach you much more you need to know for the games industry. If you've done ASM you'll have a much better grounding in code efficiency than a CS degree is ever likely to teach you. Good luck:-) Cheers, Martin 3D Programmer, Shadowman2 PS2 -----Original Message----- From: Michael Jones [mailto:mic...@st...] Sent: 27 February 2001 23:55 To: gda...@li... Subject: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do? I'm a 17 year old hobbyist programmer, keen to get into games development. Most of the stuff I've done is releated to games in some way or another (3D graphics, mechanics, sound, lighting...). My career plan is to do a decent university course, and then look out for a job in the industry. I have not decided which course to do yet. Physics is my favorite subject at school, so physics and engineering are obvious course choices. I have considered computer science, but I don't know whether I would enjoy it (it sounds fairly unapplied from what I've heard). I've seen game development courses, but I don't know how reputable they are, and I haven't seen any in the UK (where I live). Big brother, who works for Empire Interactive, tells me that general programming jobs now often require a CS degree, and that the game industry may go the same way in a few years. Do other people make the same prediction? It would be really helpful to hear what experiences people have had with university courses, how relevant they have been, and whether they considered it an advantage when applying for jobs. |
From: Jamie F. <jfo...@re...> - 2001-03-01 18:49:30
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Pulled screaming into existence they may be, although I don't think we all like it being that way.... Anyway, I just wanted to say I got my job here about 2 and a half years ago on the back of a good degree, and passing a C test at interview. I'd learned C 6 weeks beforehand (I'd done some asm, so it wasn't tricky :). I had no demos whatsoever, and Reflections weren't the only place that made offers. OTOH, my youngest brother works at Climax in Fareham, and got his job there having dropped out of university in the first year. So choose your route :) There's many ways into the industry, pick the one you want. Some will be more respected by particular studios, and for others it will be vice versa. But a degree may well leave you with more flexibility in the future. If you're particularly interested in specific developers, talk to them, see what they want. They'll probably talk back :) Jamie -----Original Message----- From: Martin Fuller [mailto:mf...@ac...] Sent: 01 March 2001 11:13 To: 'gda...@li...' Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do? I did a degree, BSc Visualisation at the University of Teesside which required in the first and second years some art modules. This is believe has changed since the introduction the BA version of the course but at the time Abertay in Dundee and Teesside were the only universities offering 3D programming degree's with an orientation to games programming. In the final year I studied AI which was a CS module and concentrated entirely on programming and producing technical demos to get me into the industry. In my experience games programming degree's do not teach you to write games but they do teach you 3D and they teach you to think and problem solve on your own two feet. (As does any degree ;-) Of course you get out of University what you put in. My advice would be to get what you can out of University, enjoy the social life of course but use University to get as much information that you want out of it, and information / skills that are going to be useful in the industry and to an employer. I don't agree with your brother. The games industry is about talent, games are pulled screaming into existance by the talent of the people working on them, not through any real what you would call planning. The goal posts are always moving technically and the game design evolves through any number of influences, pressures and occasionally 'wow we can do this with the hardware, how cool is that?' Degree's are useful because there's a classification to your name that you earn't all on your own but without a couple of nice competant -> impressive demo's you're unlikely to find a job in the games industry. If you've got talent, enthusiasm and determination a couple of cool demos then a degree doesn't really matter. I actually got my break in the industry before I finished Univeristy though I saw out the last couple of months of my degree (would have been silly not to at that stage) and had started work on a conversion for Acclaim (who were 5 miles down the road) before I knew the degree classification. I don't think there's a degree out there that will teach you to write games. Games programming degree's or certainly the one at Teesside however did teach alot of techniques that even now are new to the profession, free form deformation, implicit surfaces etc.. as well as the neccesary basics, 3D pipeline, clipping, texturing, lighting, collision etc.. If you want to go into physics (and that is and will continue IMO to be a high demand area for recruiting) I wouldn't really neccesarily recommend a 'games programming' degree though have a look around by all means. A physics / maths degree will be very useful. If you can already program compentantly, C / C++ then a CS degree isn't I believe going to teach you much more you need to know for the games industry. If you've done ASM you'll have a much better grounding in code efficiency than a CS degree is ever likely to teach you. Good luck:-) Cheers, Martin 3D Programmer, Shadowman2 PS2 -----Original Message----- From: Michael Jones [mailto:mic...@st...] Sent: 27 February 2001 23:55 To: gda...@li... Subject: [Algorithms] Off topic: Which university course should I do? I'm a 17 year old hobbyist programmer, keen to get into games development. Most of the stuff I've done is releated to games in some way or another (3D graphics, mechanics, sound, lighting...). My career plan is to do a decent university course, and then look out for a job in the industry. I have not decided which course to do yet. Physics is my favorite subject at school, so physics and engineering are obvious course choices. I have considered computer science, but I don't know whether I would enjoy it (it sounds fairly unapplied from what I've heard). I've seen game development courses, but I don't know how reputable they are, and I haven't seen any in the UK (where I live). Big brother, who works for Empire Interactive, tells me that general programming jobs now often require a CS degree, and that the game industry may go the same way in a few years. Do other people make the same prediction? It would be really helpful to hear what experiences people have had with university courses, how relevant they have been, and whether they considered it an advantage when applying for jobs. -Virus scanned and cleared ok |
From: Marc H. <ma...@ia...> - 2001-02-28 10:30:14
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> I'm a 17 year old hobbyist programmer, keen to get into games development. > Most of the stuff I've done is releated to games in some way or another (3D > graphics, mechanics, sound, lighting...). > My career plan is to do a decent university course, and then look out for a > job in the industry. I have not decided which course to do yet. Physics is > my favorite subject at school, so physics and engineering are obvious course > choices. I have considered computer science, but I don't know whether I > would enjoy it (it sounds fairly unapplied from what I've heard). I've seen That is true, I have had trouble applying my compilers class, and knowing how to calculate algorithm complexity (big-O (omega (theta)))has been fairly useless. And that graphics class, whew total waste of time. Well, more seriously, I found a CS degree can be good depending on how you approach it. For our project class we wrote a simple game. Additionally there is a lot of networking issues and possabilities outside of the corriculum, including working on research (even as an undergrad), working with nifty new hardware (big hardware like large multiprocessor machines). At the University of Oregon there was an operations research lab (CIRL) where top "AI" programmers worked. Lots of good stuff to learn there. On the other hand, perhaps a mixed degree of some sort between physics/CS or math/CS would be better. Even a pure math or physics degree would not be so bad. > game development courses, but I don't know how reputable they are, and I > haven't seen any in the UK (where I live). I would tend away from game specific courses personally. > Big brother, who works for Empire Interactive, tells me that general > programming jobs now often require a CS degree, and that the game industry > may go the same way in a few years. Do other people make the same > prediction? > It would be really helpful to hear what experiences people have had with > university courses, how relevant they have been, and whether they considered > it an advantage when applying for jobs. Loved it. Considered it a huge advantage, although occasionally it felt more like a disadvantage. Certain shops seemed to look down a bit on CS degrees. -- Marc Hernandez "Digital MP3 Player for Kids $175.00 It's easy to take your tunes with you. Just download them off the Web." -Found on MSN's website for a Discovery item |