Thread: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of environments on lower-end HW
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From: Gary M. <ga...@va...> - 2004-05-27 21:32:35
|
It's more about fillrate than the number of objects that you render on = this hardware. =20 Gary ________________________________ From: gda...@li... = [mailto:gda...@li...] On Behalf Of = Andrey Iones Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 1:54 PM To: gda...@li... Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of environments = on lower-end HW What we are trying to do is to have a single-pass solution for diffuse = and albedo.=20 BTW, what is the number of renderable objects on GF3-type cards in HL2, = if you resort to=20 multi-pass rendering for the entire environment?=20 Andrey.=20 Gary McTaggart wrote:=20 =20 To elaborate, the diffuse lighting happens in one ps_1_1 pass, and the = multiply by albedo happens in another pass. Doing specular lighting (as = in my talk slides), is another pass, which is by far the most expensive = pass and most likely to cause problems for GF3. XBox is fine with this = given it's low resolution. =09 The advantage of this method over other methods that store a single = light direciton and a color is that you can get directional shading from = an arbitrary number of light sources (and light bounces).with a = relatively simple shader. =09 Gary ________________________________ From: Gary McTaggart=20 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 9:56 AM=20 To: 'gda...@li...'=20 Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of = environments on lower-end HW=20 =20 This algorithm runs quite well at XBox/GF3. The really expensive = thing on this hardware is normal mapped cube map lookups (ie. texbem). ________________________________ From: gda...@li... = [mailto:gda...@li...] On Behalf Of = Andrey Iones=20 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 5:52 AM=20 To: gda...@li...=20 Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of = environments on lower-end HW=20 =20 Gary,=20 I understand the hardware is certainly capable of rendering your = solution (HL2-style lightmapping).=20 However, on GF3/Xbox it requires multiple passes for rendering the = environment which=20 should make the rendering unacceptably slow. That's why I was = wondering about the=20 alternative solutions - which may be less "physically correct" or = "generic" - but on the flip side=20 they can be rendered in a single pass.=20 Any thoughts?=20 Thanks,=20 Andrey.=20 =20 This lighting model works just find on both dx8 and XBox hardware. = If=20 you want to get nuts with it, you can actually implement it on dx6=20 hardware if you precompute ( basisVect dot normal ) * ( basisVect = dot=20 normal ) into three 8-bit maps instead of doing the dot product = calcs=20 per pixel for each basis vector.=20 Gary=20 Valve=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: gda...@li...=20 [mailto:gda...@li...] On Behalf Of=20 Andrey Iones=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 7:32 AM=20 To: gda...@li...=20 Subject: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of environments = on=20 lower-end HW=20 Gentlemen,=20 We've all read the paper on HL2 lighting. No questions - it's really = neat.=20 My question is - is anybody aware of similar techniques which would = work=20 on lower-end hardware, GF3/4 and Xbox?=20 Our goal is to somehow mix "good-old" lightmaps with normalmaps to=20 achive per-pixe lighting effects. It does not neccesserily have to = be as=20 a "complete" solution as HL2's (i.e. it may be much less physically=20 accurate) - but it should work on lower-end HW, and be relatively=20 generic - i.e. support more than 1-2 lights per object, and so on.=20 Any ideas would be appreciated.=20 Andrey.=20 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g Get certified on the=20 hottest thing ever to hit the market... Oracle 10g.=20 Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE.=20 http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D3149&alloc_id=3D8166&op=3Dclick=20 _______________________________________________=20 GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 GDA...@li...=20 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list=20 Archives:=20 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g=20 Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market... Oracle = 10g.=20 Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE.=20 http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id149&alloc_id=8166&op=3Dclick=20 _______________________________________________=20 GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 GDA...@li...=20 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list=20 Archives:=20 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_ida88 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 =20 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 =20 |
From: Gary M. <ga...@va...> - 2004-05-28 19:08:26
|
Why is the goal single-pass? Are you batch (driver) or fillrate limited? If not, then I would release this restriction. =20 Gary ________________________________ From: gda...@li... [mailto:gda...@li...] On Behalf Of Andrey Iones Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:43 AM To: gda...@li... Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of environments on lower-end HW =09 =09 Not really - the goal is definitely to come up with a single-pass solution which would enable=20 per-pixel lighting at least for diffuse effects (diffuse + albedo in one pass). It should not also=20 require tesselation (i.e. light directions / colors should be stored for the most part in lightmap=20 texels rather then in colors). It should also work on GF3-style hardware....=20 Andrey.=20 Tom Forsyth wrote:=20 If your alternative is another pass (that needs lighting all over again),=20 I'd say yeah, it's trivial.=20 TomF.=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: gda...@li...=20 > [mailto:gda...@li...] On=20 > Behalf Of Jon Watte=20 > Sent: 27 May 2004 11:22=20 > To: gda...@li...=20 > Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of=20 > environments on lower-end HW=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Who would even notice another 1000 tris in their scenes?=20 >=20 > Aaah, to be living in the future!=20 >=20 > Meanwhile, on planet earth, CPU-transform solutions sit in 50% of all=20 > machines currently sold (and the hardware-transform capabilities of=20 > maybe another 10% might be in question, truth be told).=20 >=20 > With a current scene load of 50,000 tris per frame, another 1,000=20 > tris would matter. Another 1,000 tris PER STREET per frame would be=20 > even worse -- because, in reality, your scene isn't just a single=20 > 50x10 meter street ;-)=20 >=20 > Cheers,=20 >=20 > / h+=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------=20 > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g=20 > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market...=20 > Oracle 10g.=20 > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE.=20 > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D3149&alloc_id=3D8166&op=3Dclick > _______________________________________________=20 > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 > GDA...@li...=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list=20 > Archives:=20 > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188=20 >=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g=20 Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market... Oracle 10g.=20 Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE.=20 http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D3149&alloc_id=3D8166&op=3Dclick=20 _______________________________________________=20 GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 GDA...@li...=20 =09 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list=20 Archives:=20 =09 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 =20 |
From: Andrey I. <io...@sa...> - 2004-05-28 19:43:19
|
I think our biggest concern is batch-limiting. For some reason we find it really hard to stay near the recommended 500-700 batches - and that's why we're so much concerned with fitting everything in one pass. I don't know whether it's our texturing (probably not though) or what... But in the detailed scenes with numerous dynamic objects (physics controlled, or simply animated) we are often staying over 1000-1300 batches, and we don't want to go even higher. Andrey. Gary McTaggart wrote: > > Why is the goal single-pass? Are you batch (driver) or fillrate > limited? If not, then I would release this restriction. > Gary > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > From: gda...@li... > [mailto:gda...@li...] On > Behalf Of Andrey Iones > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:43 AM > To: gda...@li... > Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of > environments on lower-end HW > > Not really - the goal is definitely to come up with a > single-pass solution which would enable > per-pixel lighting at least for diffuse effects (diffuse + > albedo in one pass). It should not also > require tesselation (i.e. light directions / colors should > be stored for the most part in lightmap > texels rather then in colors). It should also work on > GF3-style hardware.... > > Andrey. > > Tom Forsyth wrote: > > > If your alternative is another pass (that needs lighting > > all over again), > > I'd say yeah, it's trivial. > > > > TomF. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: gda...@li... > > > [mailto:gda...@li...] > > On > > > Behalf Of Jon Watte > > > Sent: 27 May 2004 11:22 > > > To: gda...@li... > > > Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting > > of > > > environments on lower-end HW > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who would even notice another 1000 tris in their > > scenes? > > > > > > Aaah, to be living in the future! > > > > > > Meanwhile, on planet earth, CPU-transform solutions sit > > in 50% of all > > > machines currently sold (and the hardware-transform > > capabilities of > > > maybe another 10% might be in question, truth be told). > > > > > > With a current scene load of 50,000 tris per frame, > > another 1,000 > > > tris would matter. Another 1,000 tris PER STREET per > > frame would be > > > even worse -- because, in reality, your scene isn't just > > a single > > > 50x10 meter street ;-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > / h+ > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g > > > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the > > market... > > > Oracle 10g. > > > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the > > exam FREE. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list > > > GDA...@li... > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g > > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the > > market... Oracle 10g. > > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam > > FREE. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list > > GDA...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/lis > > info/gdalgorithms-list > > Archives: > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 > > -- > Andrey Iones > Project Leader PhD in Computer Science > www.saber3d.com > > -- Andrey Iones Project Leader PhD in Computer Science www.saber3d.com |
From: Emanuele S. <in...@fo...> - 2004-05-29 14:34:06
|
Can't remember in which Nvidia slides I've seen this...but they recomend = a batch size between 2000 and 10000 triangles...GPU tends to perform to = its maximum polygon throughput. If your polygon batches are below = 800/600 triangles you get poor performances. So, mapping does matter...and a lot, IMHO. As well as number of = materials/object. Every time you get discontinuous UV mapping you break your triangle = list, or vertex array or whatever else you use.... thus reducing the = size of a batch. As said before, best performances with 1 material/object -> 1 object =3D = 1 batch. This of course depends very much from your graphics workflow...but you = can optimize in several ways... I'd suggest beginning with getting = continuous UV mapping. ...I remember our artists faces when we exported our geometry into the = engine and noticing the number of vertices was triplicated... (that was = obviously due to "not careful mapping"....and use many tiny textures - = materials - on a few polygons....that's pretty bad!) Best, Emanuele Salvucci Maya|Lightwave Game Technical Artist Lscript developer www.forwardgames.com ema...@fo... "#3. He causes things to look different so it would appear time has = passed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andrey Iones=20 To: gda...@li...=20 Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of = environments on lower-end HW I think our biggest concern is batch-limiting. For some reason we find = it really hard to stay=20 near the recommended 500-700 batches - and that's why we're so much = concerned=20 with fitting everything in one pass. I don't know whether it's our = texturing (probably not though) or=20 what... But in the detailed scenes with numerous dynamic objects = (physics controlled, or simply animated)=20 we are often staying over 1000-1300 batches, and we don't want to go = even higher.=20 Andrey.=20 Gary McTaggart wrote:=20 =20 Why is the goal single-pass? Are you batch (driver) or fillrate = limited? If not, then I would release this restriction. Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: gda...@li... = [mailto:gda...@li...] On Behalf Of = Andrey Iones=20 Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:43 AM=20 To: gda...@li...=20 Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of = environments on lower-end HW=20 =20 Not really - the goal is definitely to come up with a single-pass = solution which would enable=20 per-pixel lighting at least for diffuse effects (diffuse + albedo = in one pass). It should not also=20 require tesselation (i.e. light directions / colors should be = stored for the most part in lightmap=20 texels rather then in colors). It should also work on GF3-style = hardware....=20 Andrey.=20 Tom Forsyth wrote:=20 If your alternative is another pass (that needs lighting all = over again),=20 I'd say yeah, it's trivial.=20 TomF.=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: gda...@li...=20 > [mailto:gda...@li...] On=20 > Behalf Of Jon Watte=20 > Sent: 27 May 2004 11:22=20 > To: gda...@li...=20 > Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of=20 > environments on lower-end HW=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Who would even notice another 1000 tris in their scenes?=20 >=20 > Aaah, to be living in the future!=20 >=20 > Meanwhile, on planet earth, CPU-transform solutions sit in 50% = of all=20 > machines currently sold (and the hardware-transform = capabilities of=20 > maybe another 10% might be in question, truth be told).=20 >=20 > With a current scene load of 50,000 tris per frame, another = 1,000=20 > tris would matter. Another 1,000 tris PER STREET per frame = would be=20 > even worse -- because, in reality, your scene isn't just a = single=20 > 50x10 meter street ;-)=20 >=20 > Cheers,=20 >=20 > / h+=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------=20 > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g=20 > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market...=20 > Oracle 10g.=20 > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam = FREE.=20 > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D3149&alloc_id=3D8166&op=3Dclick=20 > _______________________________________________=20 > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 > GDA...@li...=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list = > Archives:=20 > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188=20 >=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g=20 Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market... = Oracle 10g.=20 Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE.=20 http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D3149&alloc_id=3D8166&op=3Dclick=20 _______________________________________________=20 GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 GDA...@li...=20 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list=20 Archives:=20 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 =20 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 =20 |
From: Andrey I. <io...@sa...> - 2004-05-28 21:00:37
|
Speaking of the number of batches - can anybody advice whether or not batch limitations are as acute on Xbox as on PC hardware (GF/ATI cards)? In other words, it's recommended to keep batch counts around 500-800 on PCs. What are these numbers for Xbox? Andrey. Gary McTaggart wrote: > > Why is the goal single-pass? Are you batch (driver) or fillrate > limited? If not, then I would release this restriction. > Gary > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > From: gda...@li... > [mailto:gda...@li...] On > Behalf Of Andrey Iones > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:43 AM > To: gda...@li... > Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of > environments on lower-end HW > > Not really - the goal is definitely to come up with a > single-pass solution which would enable > per-pixel lighting at least for diffuse effects (diffuse + > albedo in one pass). It should not also > require tesselation (i.e. light directions / colors should > be stored for the most part in lightmap > texels rather then in colors). It should also work on > GF3-style hardware.... > > Andrey. > > Tom Forsyth wrote: > > > If your alternative is another pass (that needs lighting > > all over again), > > I'd say yeah, it's trivial. > > > > TomF. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: gda...@li... > > > [mailto:gda...@li...] > > On > > > Behalf Of Jon Watte > > > Sent: 27 May 2004 11:22 > > > To: gda...@li... > > > Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting > > of > > > environments on lower-end HW > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who would even notice another 1000 tris in their > > scenes? > > > > > > Aaah, to be living in the future! > > > > > > Meanwhile, on planet earth, CPU-transform solutions sit > > in 50% of all > > > machines currently sold (and the hardware-transform > > capabilities of > > > maybe another 10% might be in question, truth be told). > > > > > > With a current scene load of 50,000 tris per frame, > > another 1,000 > > > tris would matter. Another 1,000 tris PER STREET per > > frame would be > > > even worse -- because, in reality, your scene isn't just > > a single > > > 50x10 meter street ;-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > / h+ > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g > > > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the > > market... > > > Oracle 10g. > > > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the > > exam FREE. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click > > > _______________________________________________ > > > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list > > > GDA...@li... > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g > > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the > > market... Oracle 10g. > > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam > > FREE. > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list > > GDA...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/lis > > info/gdalgorithms-list > > Archives: > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 > > -- > Andrey Iones > Project Leader PhD in Computer Science > www.saber3d.com > > -- Andrey Iones Project Leader PhD in Computer Science www.saber3d.com |
From: David W. <da...@pl...> - 2004-05-29 00:58:30
|
It's not batching limitations.... it's batching opportunities! <wink> -- David [Andrey Iones on 5/28/2004 4:00 PM] > Speaking of the number of batches - can anybody advice whether or not > batch limitations are as acute on Xbox as on PC hardware (GF/ATI cards)? > In other words, it's recommended to keep batch counts around 500-800 > on PCs. > > What are these numbers for Xbox? > > Andrey. > > Gary McTaggart wrote: > >> >> Why is the goal single-pass? Are you batch (driver) or fillrate >> limited? If not, then I would release this restriction. >> Gary >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* gda...@li... >> [mailto:gda...@li...] *On Behalf >> Of *Andrey Iones >> *Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2004 9:43 AM >> *To:* gda...@li... >> *Subject:* Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of >> environments on lower-end HW >> >> Not really - the goal is definitely to come up with a single-pass >> solution which would enable >> per-pixel lighting at least for diffuse effects (diffuse + albedo >> in one pass). It should not also >> require tesselation (i.e. light directions / colors should be >> stored for the most part in lightmap >> texels rather then in colors). It should also work on GF3-style >> hardware.... >> >> Andrey. >> >> Tom Forsyth wrote: >> >>> If your alternative is another pass (that needs lighting all >>> over again), >>> I'd say yeah, it's trivial. >>> >>> TomF. >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: gda...@li... >>> > [mailto:gda...@li...] On >>> > Behalf Of Jon Watte >>> > Sent: 27 May 2004 11:22 >>> > To: gda...@li... >>> > Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of >>> > environments on lower-end HW >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > Who would even notice another 1000 tris in their scenes? >>> > >>> > Aaah, to be living in the future! >>> > >>> > Meanwhile, on planet earth, CPU-transform solutions sit in 50% >>> of all >>> > machines currently sold (and the hardware-transform >>> capabilities of >>> > maybe another 10% might be in question, truth be told). >>> > >>> > With a current scene load of 50,000 tris per frame, another 1,000 >>> > tris would matter. Another 1,000 tris PER STREET per frame >>> would be >>> > even worse -- because, in reality, your scene isn't just a single >>> > 50x10 meter street ;-) >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > >>> > / h+ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------- >>> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g >>> > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market... >>> > Oracle 10g. >>> > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE. >>> > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click >>> <http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list >>> > GDA...@li... >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list >>> > Archives: >>> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g >>> Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market... >>> Oracle 10g. >>> Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE. >>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click >>> <http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3149&alloc_id=8166&op=click> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> GDAlgorithms-list mailing list >>> GDA...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list >>> Archives: >>> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 >>> >> -- >> Andrey Iones >> Project Leader PhD in Computer Science >> www.saber3d.com >> >> > -- > Andrey Iones > Project Leader PhD in Computer Science > www.saber3d.com > > |
From: Tom F. <tom...@ee...> - 2004-05-29 03:11:29
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On the XBox, as on many consoles, there's many more ways to skin a cat. = If you are doing vanilla D3D calls, then you have slightly lower overhead = per call simply because it's all statically linked and there's no separation between D3D and "the driver" layer. So you have a fair bit more headroom compared to a 733MHz PC. But then a 733MHz PC is a pretty low target for = a PC, so to say it's better isn't to say a huge amount. But there are plenty of other ways to do things that create larger = batches and smaller "per object" overhead, and they can lead to a lot of extra efficiency on both sides of the API. In practice I seemed to be able to = get around 2-3 times the performance (looking purely at what equivalent PC = we needed to run our full XB-quality engine at the same speed) because of = this. Obviously this depends heavily on what sort of geometry you are = rendering, how well those batches match what the hardware can do, yadda yadda = yadda. But you can never ever rely on this number. You _must_ test it on the = target platform, because some things are actually slower - the variation is = pretty big. TomF. -----Original Message----- From: gda...@li... [mailto:gda...@li...] On Behalf Of = Andrey Iones Sent: 28 May 2004 14:01 To: gda...@li... Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of environments = on lower-end HW Speaking of the number of batches - can anybody advice whether or not=20 batch limitations are as acute on Xbox as on PC hardware (GF/ATI cards)? = In other words, it's recommended to keep batch counts around 500-800 on = PCs. What are these numbers for Xbox?=20 Andrey.=20 Gary McTaggart wrote:=20 =20 Why is the goal single-pass? Are you batch (driver) or fillrate = limited? If not, then I would release this restriction. Gary From: gda...@li... [mailto:gda...@li...] On Behalf Of = Andrey Iones=20 Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:43 AM=20 To: gda...@li...=20 Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of environments = on lower-end HW=20 =20 Not really - the goal is definitely to come up with a single-pass = solution which would enable=20 per-pixel lighting at least for diffuse effects (diffuse + albedo in one pass). It should not also=20 require tesselation (i.e. light directions / colors should be stored for = the most part in lightmap=20 texels rather then in colors). It should also work on GF3-style = hardware.... Andrey.=20 Tom Forsyth wrote:=20 If your alternative is another pass (that needs lighting all over = again),=20 I'd say yeah, it's trivial.=20 TomF.=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: gda...@li...=20 > [mailto:gda...@li...] On=20 > Behalf Of Jon Watte=20 > Sent: 27 May 2004 11:22=20 > To: gda...@li...=20 > Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Per-pixel (normapped) lighting of=20 > environments on lower-end HW=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Who would even notice another 1000 tris in their scenes?=20 >=20 > Aaah, to be living in the future!=20 >=20 > Meanwhile, on planet earth, CPU-transform solutions sit in 50% of all=20 > machines currently sold (and the hardware-transform capabilities of=20 > maybe another 10% might be in question, truth be told).=20 >=20 > With a current scene load of 50,000 tris per frame, another 1,000=20 > tris would matter. Another 1,000 tris PER STREET per frame would be=20 > even worse -- because, in reality, your scene isn't just a single=20 > 50x10 meter street ;-)=20 >=20 > Cheers,=20 >=20 > / h+=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------=20 > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g=20 > Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market...=20 > Oracle 10g.=20 > Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE.=20 > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D3149&alloc_id=3D8166&op=3Dclick=20 > _______________________________________________=20 > GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 > GDA...@li...=20 > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list=20 > Archives:=20 > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188=20 >=20 -------------------------------------------------------=20 This SF.Net email is sponsored by: Oracle 10g=20 Get certified on the hottest thing ever to hit the market... Oracle 10g. = Take an Oracle 10g class now, and we'll give you the exam FREE.=20 http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D3149&alloc_id=3D8166&op=3Dclick=20 _______________________________________________=20 GDAlgorithms-list mailing list=20 GDA...@li...=20 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list=20 Archives:=20 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 =20 --=20 Andrey Iones=20 Project Leader PhD in Computer Science=20 www.saber3d.com=20 =20 |