gdalgorithms-list

Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Maciej S. <ms...@kk...>]

Hello,

Thursday, September 07, 2000, 5:46:03 AM, Aaron Drew wrote:

> I've been also looking for info on this. The best one I've found so far is
> Numerical Design's whitepaper on their game engine.

> http://www.ndl.com/wpapers/bishop.html
> It provides a good general overview of design philosophies and their
> implementations for collision detection, culling, traversal, etc. without
> delving into their API specifics.
I find Performer's docs (from SGI's site) very interesting.
They do delve into API specifics but you can also find some
very nice general design ideas there. Many SGs seems to be
more or less inspired by Performer's design.

-------------------------
Maciej Sinilo


--- 
Duzo drukujesz? Drogo kupujesz? Odwiedz AGAWE - nie pozalujesz! 
Atramenty, tonery, papiery i CD-R - najtaniej w Polsce! http://www.agawa.pl 

Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Stephen J B. <sj...@li...>]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Maciej Sinilo wrote:

> > http://www.ndl.com/wpapers/bishop.html
> > It provides a good general overview of design philosophies and their
> > implementations for collision detection, culling, traversal, etc. without
> > delving into their API specifics.
> I find Performer's docs (from SGI's site) very interesting.
> They do delve into API specifics but you can also find some
> very nice general design ideas there. Many SGs seems to be
> more or less inspired by Performer's design.
 
Of course Performer was almost certainly inspired by Evans&Sutherland,
Compuscene and Star-Graphicon scene graph *structures* from the
1980's (which were often implemented in hardware BTW).

----
Science being insufficient - neither ancient protein species deficient.

Steve Baker                      (817)619-2657 (Vox/Vox-Mail)
L3Com/Link Simulation & Training (817)619-2466 (Fax)
Work: sj...@li...           http://www.link.com
Home: sjb...@ai...       http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Akbar A. <sye...@ea...>]

>Evans&Sutherland
what happend to them?
i remember when there name used to be everywhere,
evans that sutherland this... are evans and sutherland still alive?

wow, i have sure learned a lot from this scene graph topic ;)
i would have *never* guessed that PHIGS would come up in this thread.

peace,
akbar A.



-----Original Message-----
From: gda...@li...
[mailto:gda...@li...]On Behalf Of
Stephen J Baker
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 4:05 PM
To: gda...@li...
Subject: Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs


On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Maciej Sinilo wrote:

> > http://www.ndl.com/wpapers/bishop.html
> > It provides a good general overview of design philosophies and their
> > implementations for collision detection, culling, traversal, etc.
without
> > delving into their API specifics.
> I find Performer's docs (from SGI's site) very interesting.
> They do delve into API specifics but you can also find some
> very nice general design ideas there. Many SGs seems to be
> more or less inspired by Performer's design.

Of course Performer was almost certainly inspired by Evans&Sutherland,
Compuscene and Star-Graphicon scene graph *structures* from the
1980's (which were often implemented in hardware BTW).

----
Science being insufficient - neither ancient protein species deficient.

Steve Baker                      (817)619-2657 (Vox/Vox-Mail)
L3Com/Link Simulation & Training (817)619-2466 (Fax)
Work: sj...@li...           http://www.link.com
Home: sjb...@ai...       http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1

_______________________________________________
GDAlgorithms-list mailing list
GDA...@li...
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Kevin L. <lac...@in...>]

Yes, E&S is still alive. I'm working for a company just across the
street from them. Though the rumor is they are getting out of the 3d
hardware business (at least here in Salt Lake).
Kevin
On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Akbar
A. wrote:

> >Evans&Sutherland
> what happend to them?
> i remember when there name used to be everywhere,
> evans that sutherland this... are evans and sutherland still alive?
> 
> wow, i have sure learned a lot from this scene graph topic ;)
> i would have *never* guessed that PHIGS would come up in this thread.
> 
> peace,
> akbar A.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gda...@li...
> [mailto:gda...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Stephen J Baker
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 4:05 PM
> To: gda...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs
> 
> 
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Maciej Sinilo wrote:
> 
> > > http://www.ndl.com/wpapers/bishop.html
> > > It provides a good general overview of design philosophies and their
> > > implementations for collision detection, culling, traversal, etc.
> without
> > > delving into their API specifics.
> > I find Performer's docs (from SGI's site) very interesting.
> > They do delve into API specifics but you can also find some
> > very nice general design ideas there. Many SGs seems to be
> > more or less inspired by Performer's design.
> 
> Of course Performer was almost certainly inspired by Evans&Sutherland,
> Compuscene and Star-Graphicon scene graph *structures* from the
> 1980's (which were often implemented in hardware BTW).
> 
> ----
> Science being insufficient - neither ancient protein species deficient.
> 
> Steve Baker                      (817)619-2657 (Vox/Vox-Mail)
> L3Com/Link Simulation & Training (817)619-2466 (Fax)
> Work: sj...@li...           http://www.link.com
> Home: sjb...@ai...       http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GDAlgorithms-list mailing list
> GDA...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> GDAlgorithms-list mailing list
> GDA...@li...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list
> 

-- 

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Stephen J B. <sj...@li...>]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Akbar A. wrote:

> >Evans&Sutherland
> what happend to them?

They are still doing all the things they ever used
to do.  They even make OpenGL graphics cards for the PC.

    http://www.es.com

> i remember when there name used to be everywhere,
> evans that sutherland this... are evans and sutherland still alive?
 
I don't *think* so - but I could easily be wrong.

----
Science being insufficient - neither ancient protein species deficient.

Steve Baker                      (817)619-2657 (Vox/Vox-Mail)
L3Com/Link Simulation & Training (817)619-2466 (Fax)
Work: sj...@li...           http://www.link.com
Home: sjb...@ai...       http://web2.airmail.net/sjbaker1

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Lipson, P. <Pet...@br...>]

 Ok, standardization is a -necessary- evil. No question that black-box
components that are reliable can be used to enable innovative solutions
built around them. Also no question that certain innovative techniques are
unavailable because the black boxes can't support them.
  And sometimes innovation and production are in direct conflict too :)

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen J Baker [mailto:sj...@li...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 8:18 AM
> To: gda...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs
> 
> 
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Dave Eberly wrote:
> 
...
> > 
> > Standardization is evil.  Okay, a strong statement
> > to make :)  Perhaps better is to point out that
> > standardization and innovation are in direct conflict.
>  
.......
> 
> The deal is that this higher level of standardization doesn't
> prevent you from innovating - it just frees you from the
> bothersome details and lets you innovate at a higher level.
.....
> 

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Tom F. <to...@mu...>]

Dead. Toast. Finished. Pushing up dasies. This is an ex-API.

They just haven't admitted it yet.

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke.
Whizzing and pasting and pooting through the day.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Wight [mailto:jw...@bi...]
> Sent: 06 September 2000 22:46
> To: gda...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs
> 
> 
> on 9/6/00 1:36 PM, Ko, Manchor at MAN...@ca... wrote:
> 
> > Now there isn't. But you should be familiar with Performer 
> and Fahrenheit as
> > a start. Otherwise you are in a huge hole. I have a lot of 
> experience
> > designing scene-graphs. Will be happy to discuss it with u. 
> I have a class
> > structure that works very well.
> 
> What is happening with Fahrenheit BTW? Is it dead? I found a news link
> yesterday that seemed to say it was alive and doing well but 
> I couldn't
> confirm it.
> 
> Also has anyone got any good links to some Fahrenheit technical
> documentation?
> 
>     Jon.

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Ko, M. <MAN...@ca...>]

It might be dead as an API. But the interfaces and the architecture have a
lot of good stuff in it. We should study it. I think.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Forsyth [mailto:to...@mu...]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 7:49 AM
To: gda...@li...
Subject: RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs


Dead. Toast. Finished. Pushing up dasies. This is an ex-API.

They just haven't admitted it yet.

Tom Forsyth - Muckyfoot bloke.
Whizzing and pasting and pooting through the day.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Wight [mailto:jw...@bi...]
> Sent: 06 September 2000 22:46
> To: gda...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs
> 
> 
> on 9/6/00 1:36 PM, Ko, Manchor at MAN...@ca... wrote:
> 
> > Now there isn't. But you should be familiar with Performer 
> and Fahrenheit as
> > a start. Otherwise you are in a huge hole. I have a lot of 
> experience
> > designing scene-graphs. Will be happy to discuss it with u. 
> I have a class
> > structure that works very well.
> 
> What is happening with Fahrenheit BTW? Is it dead? I found a news link
> yesterday that seemed to say it was alive and doing well but 
> I couldn't
> confirm it.
> 
> Also has anyone got any good links to some Fahrenheit technical
> documentation?
> 
>     Jon.
_______________________________________________
GDAlgorithms-list mailing list
GDA...@li...
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list

Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Joe A. <Jo...@Ti...>]

> It might be dead as an API. But the interfaces and the architecture have a
> lot of good stuff in it. We should study it. I think.
Ive just searched the web for any info on the Fahrenheit Scenegraph API,
without luck, does anyone have links or documents?

bye joe

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Stefan B. <ste...@te...>]

> > It might be dead as an API. But the interfaces and the
> > architecture have a lot of good stuff in it. We should study it. I
> > think.

> Ive just searched the web for any info on the Fahrenheit Scenegraph API,
> without luck, does anyone have links or documents?

  Unfortunately, the SDK is not publically available at this time, even
though it has gone past beta. So unless you were on the beta you're
basically out of luck. Since it's not publically available, I'm not sure how
much detail I could go into with regards to useful innovations within XSG
compared to previous scene graph designs.

  As the original poster says there are some quite interesting design ideas
contained within XSG, but also some awkward things that can make it hard to
work with. It's a very ambitious design, which tries to solve all problems
for everyone and all types of applications. It comes quite close, actually,
but doesn't reach the target, IMHO.

  Maybe the next generation of scene graphs will get closer. It seems like
the problems with scene graphs aren't quite well-understood yet to make an
API that everyone will accept and use. (I guess there are parallels with
immediate-mode APIs a few years ago)

Cheers,
Stef
--
Stefan Boberg, R&D/Technical Manager, Team17 Software Ltd.
bo...@te...

RE: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs

[Gavan H. <gh...@si...>]

The web stuff does not indicate how much work has been done on that product.

I have all of the doco ..., It is called XSG eXtensible Scene Graph, LMX
Large Model eXtensions. The product is just about to become a public
offering.
If you want further information then I will email the product manager for
XSG and see if he is in a position to comment. There are a few people asking
about this.


Gavan Hood

-----Original Message-----
From: gda...@li...
[mailto:gda...@li...]On Behalf Of Joe
Ante
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 4:23 AM
To: gda...@li...
Subject: Re: [Algorithms] FW: [CsMain] Scene Graphs


> It might be dead as an API. But the interfaces and the architecture have a
> lot of good stuff in it. We should study it. I think.
Ive just searched the web for any info on the Fahrenheit Scenegraph API,
without luck, does anyone have links or documents?

bye joe

_______________________________________________
GDAlgorithms-list mailing list
GDA...@li...
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/gdalgorithms-list