I been seeing alot of sites going to 1:1 ratios.. Even warez didn't have 1:1 it had 3:1 you uploaded 1meg you got back 3megs. So how is it that warez that survived so long was able to survive yet we have torrent communities who think that if your less than 1:1 your a leecher? Warez had a .33 ratio basically.
Also I think people need to start letting these sites know that 1:1 is a bit much for the average user especially when warez sites didn't EVEN NEED them type of ratios.. How is it that a system that worked for YEARS is NOT good ENOUGH for the Torrent community?
Now let's put the numbers in perspective of a series download that is 5gigs.. I know not all downloads are that big but I want to use a high enough download to put a basic broadband users numbers into perspective.
Download speed is way greater than upload just cause of Asynchronous Broadband Connections.. So you can download a file at an average of 100K at the least and sometimes I've hit way higher.
Now this is a bit ABSURD... I'm suppose to spend 3 days DOING NOTHING ELSE ON THE NET! No games, nothing but checking email or browsing so that I can give back all 5 gigs! I think another day seeding on top of what you already seeded should be fine.
Ok I finished downloaded and been seeding for 14 hours already of course but a 1:1 is a bit much.. let's go with a more realistic .5 ratio and how much seeding time extra to reach it.
Upload: (72megs/hour * 22/hrs = 1.584 gigs)
Total Seeded: 1.008gigs + 1.584gigs = 2.592gigs)
Total time seeded: 36 hours
Ratio: .518
Now a total seed time of 36 hours seems alot more reasonable than what these sites are starting to request. The warez people didn't do ridiculous 1:1 sites they just boycotted them sites and they died out or went to a reasonable 1:3 ratio. We as torrent users need to start to do the same if we want Torrent to survive to all and not just a few who have alot of upload bandwidth.
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"yet we have torrent communities who..." are socialists. Utopian responsibilities are for the *other* people.
"your a leecher.." if you're not a seeder. Some people in this forum like to hide behind equivocation too. It's not within the definition of torrent. Perhaps those people would prefer calling it the "bit exchange"?
"letting these sites know that 1:1 is a bit much" They do. It's called high turn over on new accounts.
"Torrent community" .. 'Community' is largly a misnomer much like 'scene' has always been.
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1. I've been on warez sites where it was 3:1, I had to upload 30 megs to get 10.
2. If you knew how bittorrent worked then you wouldn't complain about 1:1 ratios. A lot of torrents are off personal PCs, not warez sites where porn adds pay for them to HOST the files.
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I think most of the people here complaining about ratio's are too used to G3 (which is a leech client). And do not understand how the BT community works. In order for it to be effective it is nessecary for you to upload at least 100% of what you download. If you don't upload at least what you download. Don't complain about torrents dying off in a few days or worse hours.
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Problem is Josh, that most people misunderstand the basic idear of the BT system.
The basic idear of the BT system was to offload the load from the primary server by making the clients compenste for a part.
The big problem these day's is, that most site's have the "well, we seed this 1 time, and let everybody else keep the thing alive" attitude, while at the same time, they are keeping xxx fserv/xdcc servers live that keep pumping out file's one at a time ...
I've even seen a anime site ( with a admin who has a real bad attitude ) place daim hard restriction's on there BT tracker, so far, that even people who are downloading & can not upload fast enouf, get banned ( a few dozen example of differende bans have shown up already ). They have the attitude, of FAF ( Fire & Forget ), or in this case, Supper Seed & Forget ...
The best idear i have seen today that give in to both side's ( keep torrents alive but doesent push the downloaders into forced seeding or banning ) is the new webseeding system: For those that don't know,
the basic idear to keep torrents alive is, 1 dedicated server that jumps in when the torrent is about to die & fills in the slack until there are other seeders supporting. This is a very good way.
But as long as providers keep this S&F attitude, ofcourse those seed's will die out, and there desperate attempts at forcing people to seed xxx time's what they download will only keep working against themselfs ...
Those guy's who love limits, always keep forgetting that on avarge, you download with atleased 30kb ( most of the time more ), but most people don't have T1 line's, but asyncrome line's ( example 3mb down, 128kb upstream). They can download something in lets say 10h, but they need to keep seeding it ( with max upstream ) for several day's just to compensate that 1 file. And if you know async line's, you know, the more upload you use, the worse your ^ping gets, the worse your download speed, and the slower your internet brouwsing. Do people need to keep there pc's running for a week? Do they need to stop playing game's ( or face 400+ ping )? etc just to compensate that one file. I will seed for as long as i download + xx time after, but that's it. When i first started i seeded way more then now, but the longer i used BT, the more i get pissed off with those wankers who put in limit after limit so they don't need to do the job of seeding it ( and with there limit's, they also drop the amount of people downloading ( and seeding ), and then they take another action, dropping more people etc etc .. it's a circle that some BT tracker owners are in.
If they want to keep there torrents alive for month's, THEY need to keep atleased 1 supper seed active when it get's down to 0 seeders.
This is what wrong with the BT system in my eye's, sure leeching will dimish the system, but from what i have seen, the cure's do more harm then the actual leechers do.
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Anonymous
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2004-05-19
In a popular forum a senior member mused "please don't be letting this site turn into a Nazi Germany" as comment on a fop "requiring" 1:1 ratios.
As you might recall the german nazis were socialsts. Among other less tasteful concepts that entails "forced sharing". Socialism has a long history of failure... as well as devolution into substantially worse wickedness.
I would have posted in the forum but refrained for fear of being pecked to death. (obscura: any variation from expectation)
Bit Torrent was never designed with requiring torrent participants to upload 100%+ of downloads. There's alread a variety of technologies for that: (s)FTP as mentioned comes readily to mind.
It's the staggered OVERLAP of multiple download agents uploading simultaneously that generates the mesh effect.
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Anonymous
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2004-05-20
Systems like torrentbits DOT org seem to be good force you to be nice and only hang around those that are nice :)
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Guys please don't mention or discuss warez here. Or even talk about sites that relate to it. Sourceforge will come and suspend this account if its in violation of their TOS.
Ratios can't be reliably enforced server side anyway.
But I'm sure tracker people would totaly lose it if I put in a mode that lied about how much you uploaded / downloaded. I'll just wait for now and see how this trend develops.
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hmmm im really mad at those sites that require ratios like someone else mentioned wating a week to do anything else online is not acceptable i think you SHOULD with out a doubt ADD that feature just so you piss them off even more.
plus with the added contraversey your client would get more popular and more would use it and lie that they dont like me
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you can get your "linux distros", "benchmarking software" and other things that are overly large from websites that have never thought of even having a login let alone a ratio!
Also what was the point of mentioning ratios on here??
Not a lot the g3 programmers can do about it!
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actually he could do a lot about it by adding that feature that skews how much you have downloaded and uploaded. It would allow us to be more effecient seeds if we could dl faster and not have to worry about ratios and getting banned.
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wow i think suprnova is now one of a few trackers left that isnt making you have a 1 to 1 ratio without threat of being banned i think this feature is needed more than ever :P
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Suprnova doesn't use theire own trackers so....
It is just a archive of torrents.
Like google with a archive with links to other websites.
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Anonymous
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2004-07-06
I originally suggested this feature months ago. It is desperately needed. People are being banned from Torrent sites simply for having a poor ratio which is not right. Many people with poor ratios also contribute torrents to the sites and if they are banned everyone loses. I know that my good friend in Munich and all of his leecher friends would agree, we need the ability to force feed fake stats to the tracker. All is fair in love and war. Remember we are all thieves, cheats, crooks, pirates, blacksheep and in general dastardly people, that is why we use Bittorrent.
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Keep a close eye on the "community". More & more people are getting pissed off with this constand client banning, user banning for not uploading what the admin thinks etc ...
I mean come on ... in the "old" days. You had maybe 10 people on a ftp site, downloading at 20 a 30k if you got lucky. You needed to upload 10mb for between 20 to 50mb download ( 1/2 - 1/5 . 1/1 or higher have been more rare ). Now, they have a few 1000 people downloading/uploading but people need to do all the work now, sinds a lot of those tracker owners, upload it one time, and don't do a support on it. I mean come on ... they talk big about community etc, but when push come's to shove, they themselfs don't bother.
It's funny how people keep forgetting that most people who has async line's ... 3300kbit / 128kbit here. And now everybody wan't to keep there pc running all day & night ( only to find out they still got banned ). I look at it this way, if somebody downloads a big torrent, who does he need to get punished, and spend all week uploading to get back to 1/1, preventing him from downloading anything else ( or he gets banned becouse he has no more upload ).
Something that some tracker owners also keep forgetting, that people also have not only upload speed limits, but also download / upload limits. A local ISP company here let's you upload at max 3GB / month ... weeeee. Go above it, you pay mutcho dinero's for every 750mb upload block extra ( 5 euro ). Bittorrent get's a bit expensive with 1/1 very fast with systems like that, doesent it ;)
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Anonymous
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2004-07-07
What a load of pathetic excuses for being a leeching bastard. Every argument posted here is weak
1: leeching fuckers like you are the reason ratios and bans appeared (leechers ruin everything for everyone)
2: BT is not a warez site or ftp it is a peer to peer file-SHARING protocol.
3: Moaning about not being able to do things while uploading is stupid you can always stop do your thing then restart the client or ul at slower rate when browsing.
4. Complaining about site admins being fascist is ironic as leeching fuckers like you are the one who force them to act like this in order to make you behave decently.
5. Moaning about your asynchronous connection is pathetic when a great deal of files are uploaded by home users with the same connection as you but who have the generousity to release stuff which you show your appreciation for by not thanking them and leeching as much as possible and giving nothing back therefore slowing the dl for others and yourselves and making people less likely to do it again and more likely to get the site admion to enforce ratio etc.
6. The one "Remember we are all thieves, cheats, crooks, pirates, blacksheep and in general dastardly people, that is why we use Bittorrent" makes me laugh such bullshit, have you never heard of honour among thieves anyway?
Put simply you are ruining it for everyone keep up you greedy antics and there will be no BT and no peer to peer filesharing. I don't know I wonder if you are retarded or just so selfish that you don't see that you are destroying the thing which provides you with so much good stuff.
You know deep down I am right so it's about time you wised up don't you think.
this is apt especially for peer to peer networks.
'What are the differences between Heaven and Hell?', a young Zen monk asked an aged Buddhist priest who was reknowned for his wisdom.
'There are no material differences,' replied the old monk.
'None at all?' asked the puzzled young monk.
'That's right. Both Heaven and Hell have a spacious hall with a big pot in the center in which noodles are boiled, giving off a delicious scent,' said the old priest. 'The size of the huge pan, the number of people sitting around the pot and the bowl of sauce placed in front of each diner are the same in both places.'
'The odd thing is that each diner is given a pair of meter-long chopsticks and must use them to eat the noodles.'
'To eat the noodles, you must hold the chopsticks properly at their ends,' the old monk told the young Zen monk.
'In the case of Hell's kitchen, people are always hungry because no matter how hard they try, they can't get the noodles into their mouths,' said the old priest.
'But isn't it the same case for the people in Heaven?' the junior monk inquited.
'No. They can eat because they each feed the person sitting opposite them at the table. That's the difference between Heaven and Hell,' explained the old monk.
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Sind you copy pasted you text in 2 topic, here is my copy past responce:
1. If you can't even get the defenition of leech right, you are not one to talk. Leech = people who download widout giving anything in return. THAT is what leech means.
The is a fucking difference between leech's who are maybe 0.1% of the community, and people who upload but don't upload to a 1/1 score.
So get that fact right before you start yelling leech baka.
2. BT was designed as a replacement system of FTP, where the people help with the original poster. Check the daim BT site & history yourself. BT has become this monster beyond what the maker designed it for. BT was never designed to have a limit at all.
3. Like i said. Upload limits ... do they ring a bell??? Not just async, but also how much you can upload can be limited. Like i said, download a 13 eps anime serie, and you end up paying for it by uploading a entire week, where you can't do anything else. Or like you said, you lower your upload speed, and you end up paying 1 week & half.
4. See point 2. Some Tracker owners think BT is there own fire/forget system. These people are just as worse as your so called leech's.
5. See point 2.
6. Not my quote so i no reply on it.
As you say, we so called G3 user ruine it for everybody. Strange, that the trackers widout limits ( en banning ), have more people on them, have in general more speed, and have longer active torrents. Yet, trackers who have strange banning systems, have a LOT less people on them, slower speed & there torrents die way faster. Trust me, i've seen how a few fanatic torrent owner implemented that system, and how there torrents now need almost constant babysitting. And yes, people tend to stay away from trackers that can ban them, even when they are doing nothing wrong ( becouse banning with BT is somewhat tricky ).
If you don't beleef me, thats your right. But calling everybody name's becouse of it, well, it just shows that how ignorent you are.
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Anonymous
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2004-07-07
Ok excuse my foul language I was just disgusted by the themes of this forum.
Here we go again:
1. Lets not quibble over the definition of a leech, as far as I am concerned anyone who dl files and actively tries his best not to share them with other users of the peer to peer network is a leech. They are acting in a way which will kill the efficiency of the network. The only reason these people upload anything is because the are forced to by the BT protocol and even still they try all sorts of tricks in order to give little back. I have witnessed some uploading 20mb while dl ing a 1.5gb file, if you think this will lead to a fast long lived torrent then by all means you and your friends go start up your own community and see how it works with everyone hitting and running. No wait I forgot leechers aren't likely to release anything in the first place so you will be kind of stuck for something download lol. The whole thing relies on generousity and good will 2 attributes that by the look of this forum are sadly lacking.
2. This may be right but as you said it has been adopted by the peer to peer filesharing community, and I doubt many of us run dedicated servers for your leeching convienience. If you want to download only go find some public ftp server with no ratio or some other system designed for this and leech until your heart is content.
3. As for upload limits this is a pretty feeble excuse also, what self respecting file sharer would sign up to an isp that imposes this sort of limit. My advice is to drop your stingy provider like it's hot, they will most likely switch to unlimited if they lose loads of customers to decent isps who don't impose limits anyway.
4. How is anyone who has the generosity to release stuff on BT as bad as a leech, that makes no sense. You should be grateful (the difference is they are contributing you are taking away) even if they do fire and forget although very few people do this, most seed for at least a week.
I also dispute you final statement and suggest to you that public trackers can attract larger swarms and therefore absorb more leechers with less effect. Then again if people continue to leech the seeders will get annoyed and then there will be less public tracker and less trackers that don't impose ratios and other restrictions.
This place seems like a bitching ground for people who got banned from sites/trackers I know this isn't nice but these restrictions only appeared because greedy people just take the piss out of others generosity by trying to upload nothing.
Personally I would prefer no banning, ratios and alike as it can lead to unfair treatment. I would prefer everyone to show some appreciation and try to upload as much as is feasible for their circumstances and then some for good measure.
For instance at this moment I have a large list of files seeding and qued to be seeded some more with share ratios ranging from 28 to 0.461 and I often reseed things that go dead ie have peers but no seed (and there is nothing special about my connection. I think you people should adopt more of this attitude then Bt would improve for everyone.
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Anonymous
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2004-07-07
Oh and another thing even if releasers do fire and forget , as you say, this isn't even necessarily a bad thing as it means they can move on to releasing more new stuff.
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2. You still seem to be ignoring the basic point of BT. It wasent designed for how some Tracker owners use it now. Becouse of that, some of them are getting so "tirranic". Let me give ya a few nice example of fucked up things. Anime groups do releases: BT & Irc. On there Irc channel they have x bots who are dedicated upload machine's. Yet, if you trie to download from they, you are 1 or maybe 2 people who can download. Now, those same people, do fire & forget releases on BT. They release the same stuff sometime's on BT, upload 1 one time, and expect the "community" to keep things alive. Now at the same time, while people sometime's are getting 90% - 99% complete & stuck, those same torrent & irc owners are still having dedicated bots on irc, where only 1 or 2 people can download at the same time.
Now this is what i call a) a wast of resource's b) foolish when some of those same tracker owners start banning becouse they don't think enouf people upload. While they are heaving dedicated leech machine's active on irc ...
It's called 2 value's for the same thing. THAT is what bothers me a lot.
3. Ho boy... this does show you dont have a clue what is going on in the world ... Let me give ya a example with my own country. You have company X that does cable Internet who does HAVE a limit system like i wrote about. Then you have 1 big ADSL provider ( a ex telephone monopholy company ) who control's the entire ADSL network ( and a few rare mini company's who only exist in a few city's, not even worth the time i'm writing this ). Now these are your options. Cable or ADSL. Both are monopolys in there own fields, one of adsl, and the other of cable internet. Now, lets say cable:
10GB limit ( global ) with 3 GB upload limit. With 192kb upstream ( they just added this becouse the adsl company incrased there upstream ) that you need to active. If you don't know about it ( 99% of there clients, its 128 Kb ). Now, if you want to upload some things, you end up with the limit. So you need to buy extra blocks at 5 euro for a 750mb increase in upstream. Not very cheap he ...
Now, the adsl company has about 10 providers who buy from them:
Most of them have 10GB limit's ( global ), with 198 kb upstream ( just changed last month ). So you are better of with adsl if you want to share. But, likr i said, it's a ex-monopoly company. If you want ADSL, you are forced to have a phone line with them. And not everybody wants a phoneline these day's ( GSM ), and the fee's every month are expensive for the phone line.
So 40+% of the country's internet users have cable, and the rest have adsl. Now, that make's about 400.000 people here, with a 3GB upload limit. ANd another 600.000 with a 10GB upload / Download limit.
So even IF you are with a adsl line, when you download a 5GB torrent, and are forced to go 1/1, you use up all your limit of that month, and you can surf at 56k modem speeds ...
Of those 10 providers, only 1 still has a fair use system, all the rest have 10GB limits.
Trying to say " drop your stingy provider like it's hot" doesent help a daim thing, when your country is using a monopoly system by the 2 internet providers. And they take good care, not to introduce things so they don't start a competition between each other. Effect: All the accounts are almost the same with all the providers.
One new provider tried this system of unlimited. Effect, massive people joined them, effect, they where not able to support the massive population. There service has been effected so mutch, that people where surfing etc at 2kb. Effect: A lot of people left, and they now already added a download limit of 40GB, and the system is still under so much presure, there is talk about 10GB. So this glory story doesent work in a situation like my country.
It may be better in yours, but trust me, here, it sucks big time. Effect: People are trying to get every bit & byte out of there downloads, thus creating a few 10.000 what you call leechers ( what i call limited uploaders ). Most try to give back, but they can't give back what some trackers owners think.
4. This point goes back to BT - FTP. The idear is to keep torrents alive with 1 master source. Seeding for one week, and the dropping the master source means the torrent dies ... I have said it before, fine, you can stop seeding, but atleased reseed when the torrent is getting below 1 seen copy ( aka, impossible to create a 100% torrent ). There are scripts out there that can do it. The new webseed script is one of them that is designed to create a continue service widout bringing the original source seeder to his knees. I'm not inhuman he ;)
5. I tell it how i see it in regards to public trackers vs banning trackers. The banning trackers end up pissing more people off then for there own good. A few things that heapon to "fair" people. Somebody start's downloading, but there are not many people left on that trackers ( hey, it's a banning trackers afterall ). So those people try to upload, but they get more data in, then they can upload. Effect: Those people get banned ( read a few dozen example of that already ). So those people are pissed off & don't bother with that torrent tracker any more. Etc etc ... there are a few dozen differend way's "legit" people got banned, and there is nothing worse then a pissed off customer.
Btw: I havent got bannned on any tracker becouse download / upload. I only get banned becouse i use G3. The so called Leech Client.
Yes, there are people who like to upload 0 & download 10 TB's ... that won't change, but this creating a elefant out of a mouse, isent helping also. A quick look at a few trackers who publish the downloaders/uploaders there stats, show almost no 0 uploaders ( most are people who havent even downloaded a bit - just added to trackers stats ). Those who upload the so called 20mb are rare at best. Most people do atleased 0.1 or higher.
The paranoiya that i see sometime's doesent follow what i notice on the released tracker list stat's.
Also, in regards to the leech getting anoyed from banning. Trust me, REAL leech's are like cheaters in CS. A breed you can't annoy away or destroy. There are people who will & keep getting past any banning system there exist. Widout trying, i know how to get past most banning system that exist today. Becouse the nature of BT was never designed as a banning system.
Most people agree with what i said about public trackers & banning. If you read a few forum's with the same discussions ( free forum's, i'm using this word, becouse like i said, there do exist "tirranic" torrent owners who even ban people who don't agree with the banning system, even if they got banned widout reason ( becouse the bad working banning system )). So like i was saying, on those forum's, the general consensus is that heavy banning only has a counter productive effect.
Don't forget, BT already pubishes people who leech with lower download speeds. This is what most anti-leech advocate's keep forgetting. The system works ( widout all those extra feature's like banning, and forced 1/1 etc ).
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I been seeing alot of sites going to 1:1 ratios.. Even warez didn't have 1:1 it had 3:1 you uploaded 1meg you got back 3megs. So how is it that warez that survived so long was able to survive yet we have torrent communities who think that if your less than 1:1 your a leecher? Warez had a .33 ratio basically.
Also I think people need to start letting these sites know that 1:1 is a bit much for the average user especially when warez sites didn't EVEN NEED them type of ratios.. How is it that a system that worked for YEARS is NOT good ENOUGH for the Torrent community?
Now let's put the numbers in perspective of a series download that is 5gigs.. I know not all downloads are that big but I want to use a high enough download to put a basic broadband users numbers into perspective.
Download speed is way greater than upload just cause of Asynchronous Broadband Connections.. So you can download a file at an average of 100K at the least and sometimes I've hit way higher.
Series: 5 gigs
Speed (100K * 60/sec = 6megs/min = 360megs/hour * 14/hrs = 5.04gigs)
Upload: (20k * 60/sec = 1.2megs/min = 72megs/hour * 14/hrs = 1.008gigs)
Left to Upload: 4 gigs
Upload: (72megs/hour * 56/hrs = 4.032 gigs)
That is a total of 70 hours of seeding!
Now this is a bit ABSURD... I'm suppose to spend 3 days DOING NOTHING ELSE ON THE NET! No games, nothing but checking email or browsing so that I can give back all 5 gigs! I think another day seeding on top of what you already seeded should be fine.
Ok I finished downloaded and been seeding for 14 hours already of course but a 1:1 is a bit much.. let's go with a more realistic .5 ratio and how much seeding time extra to reach it.
Upload: (72megs/hour * 22/hrs = 1.584 gigs)
Total Seeded: 1.008gigs + 1.584gigs = 2.592gigs)
Total time seeded: 36 hours
Ratio: .518
Now a total seed time of 36 hours seems alot more reasonable than what these sites are starting to request. The warez people didn't do ridiculous 1:1 sites they just boycotted them sites and they died out or went to a reasonable 1:3 ratio. We as torrent users need to start to do the same if we want Torrent to survive to all and not just a few who have alot of upload bandwidth.
"yet we have torrent communities who..." are socialists. Utopian responsibilities are for the *other* people.
"your a leecher.." if you're not a seeder. Some people in this forum like to hide behind equivocation too. It's not within the definition of torrent. Perhaps those people would prefer calling it the "bit exchange"?
"letting these sites know that 1:1 is a bit much" They do. It's called high turn over on new accounts.
"Torrent community" .. 'Community' is largly a misnomer much like 'scene' has always been.
ive never heard of warez sites doing 1:3 ratio :D
and btw - average download speed with bt worlwide is below 30kbps
so the times you quoted whould be trippled ;)
1. I've been on warez sites where it was 3:1, I had to upload 30 megs to get 10.
2. If you knew how bittorrent worked then you wouldn't complain about 1:1 ratios. A lot of torrents are off personal PCs, not warez sites where porn adds pay for them to HOST the files.
I think most of the people here complaining about ratio's are too used to G3 (which is a leech client). And do not understand how the BT community works. In order for it to be effective it is nessecary for you to upload at least 100% of what you download. If you don't upload at least what you download. Don't complain about torrents dying off in a few days or worse hours.
Problem is Josh, that most people misunderstand the basic idear of the BT system.
The basic idear of the BT system was to offload the load from the primary server by making the clients compenste for a part.
The big problem these day's is, that most site's have the "well, we seed this 1 time, and let everybody else keep the thing alive" attitude, while at the same time, they are keeping xxx fserv/xdcc servers live that keep pumping out file's one at a time ...
I've even seen a anime site ( with a admin who has a real bad attitude ) place daim hard restriction's on there BT tracker, so far, that even people who are downloading & can not upload fast enouf, get banned ( a few dozen example of differende bans have shown up already ). They have the attitude, of FAF ( Fire & Forget ), or in this case, Supper Seed & Forget ...
The best idear i have seen today that give in to both side's ( keep torrents alive but doesent push the downloaders into forced seeding or banning ) is the new webseeding system: For those that don't know,
the basic idear to keep torrents alive is, 1 dedicated server that jumps in when the torrent is about to die & fills in the slack until there are other seeders supporting. This is a very good way.
But as long as providers keep this S&F attitude, ofcourse those seed's will die out, and there desperate attempts at forcing people to seed xxx time's what they download will only keep working against themselfs ...
Those guy's who love limits, always keep forgetting that on avarge, you download with atleased 30kb ( most of the time more ), but most people don't have T1 line's, but asyncrome line's ( example 3mb down, 128kb upstream). They can download something in lets say 10h, but they need to keep seeding it ( with max upstream ) for several day's just to compensate that 1 file. And if you know async line's, you know, the more upload you use, the worse your ^ping gets, the worse your download speed, and the slower your internet brouwsing. Do people need to keep there pc's running for a week? Do they need to stop playing game's ( or face 400+ ping )? etc just to compensate that one file. I will seed for as long as i download + xx time after, but that's it. When i first started i seeded way more then now, but the longer i used BT, the more i get pissed off with those wankers who put in limit after limit so they don't need to do the job of seeding it ( and with there limit's, they also drop the amount of people downloading ( and seeding ), and then they take another action, dropping more people etc etc .. it's a circle that some BT tracker owners are in.
If they want to keep there torrents alive for month's, THEY need to keep atleased 1 supper seed active when it get's down to 0 seeders.
This is what wrong with the BT system in my eye's, sure leeching will dimish the system, but from what i have seen, the cure's do more harm then the actual leechers do.
In a popular forum a senior member mused "please don't be letting this site turn into a Nazi Germany" as comment on a fop "requiring" 1:1 ratios.
As you might recall the german nazis were socialsts. Among other less tasteful concepts that entails "forced sharing". Socialism has a long history of failure... as well as devolution into substantially worse wickedness.
I would have posted in the forum but refrained for fear of being pecked to death. (obscura: any variation from expectation)
Bit Torrent was never designed with requiring torrent participants to upload 100%+ of downloads. There's alread a variety of technologies for that: (s)FTP as mentioned comes readily to mind.
It's the staggered OVERLAP of multiple download agents uploading simultaneously that generates the mesh effect.
Systems like torrentbits DOT org seem to be good force you to be nice and only hang around those that are nice :)
Guys please don't mention or discuss warez here. Or even talk about sites that relate to it. Sourceforge will come and suspend this account if its in violation of their TOS.
Ratios can't be reliably enforced server side anyway.
But I'm sure tracker people would totaly lose it if I put in a mode that lied about how much you uploaded / downloaded. I'll just wait for now and see how this trend develops.
well if you do that too your client will surely become
the most controversial bt client ever :)
hmmm im really mad at those sites that require ratios like someone else mentioned wating a week to do anything else online is not acceptable i think you SHOULD with out a doubt ADD that feature just so you piss them off even more.
plus with the added contraversey your client would get more popular and more would use it and lie that they dont like me
i second that.
What are you doing using sites with ratios?
you can get your "linux distros", "benchmarking software" and other things that are overly large from websites that have never thought of even having a login let alone a ratio!
Also what was the point of mentioning ratios on here??
Not a lot the g3 programmers can do about it!
actually he could do a lot about it by adding that feature that skews how much you have downloaded and uploaded. It would allow us to be more effecient seeds if we could dl faster and not have to worry about ratios and getting banned.
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The horse has long since died. Please quit beating it and walk away
wow i think suprnova is now one of a few trackers left that isnt making you have a 1 to 1 ratio without threat of being banned i think this feature is needed more than ever :P
Suprnova doesn't use theire own trackers so....
It is just a archive of torrents.
Like google with a archive with links to other websites.
I originally suggested this feature months ago. It is desperately needed. People are being banned from Torrent sites simply for having a poor ratio which is not right. Many people with poor ratios also contribute torrents to the sites and if they are banned everyone loses. I know that my good friend in Munich and all of his leecher friends would agree, we need the ability to force feed fake stats to the tracker. All is fair in love and war. Remember we are all thieves, cheats, crooks, pirates, blacksheep and in general dastardly people, that is why we use Bittorrent.
Asynchronous is ABSURD
Keep a close eye on the "community". More & more people are getting pissed off with this constand client banning, user banning for not uploading what the admin thinks etc ...
I mean come on ... in the "old" days. You had maybe 10 people on a ftp site, downloading at 20 a 30k if you got lucky. You needed to upload 10mb for between 20 to 50mb download ( 1/2 - 1/5 . 1/1 or higher have been more rare ). Now, they have a few 1000 people downloading/uploading but people need to do all the work now, sinds a lot of those tracker owners, upload it one time, and don't do a support on it. I mean come on ... they talk big about community etc, but when push come's to shove, they themselfs don't bother.
It's funny how people keep forgetting that most people who has async line's ... 3300kbit / 128kbit here. And now everybody wan't to keep there pc running all day & night ( only to find out they still got banned ). I look at it this way, if somebody downloads a big torrent, who does he need to get punished, and spend all week uploading to get back to 1/1, preventing him from downloading anything else ( or he gets banned becouse he has no more upload ).
Something that some tracker owners also keep forgetting, that people also have not only upload speed limits, but also download / upload limits. A local ISP company here let's you upload at max 3GB / month ... weeeee. Go above it, you pay mutcho dinero's for every 750mb upload block extra ( 5 euro ). Bittorrent get's a bit expensive with 1/1 very fast with systems like that, doesent it ;)
What a load of pathetic excuses for being a leeching bastard. Every argument posted here is weak
1: leeching fuckers like you are the reason ratios and bans appeared (leechers ruin everything for everyone)
2: BT is not a warez site or ftp it is a peer to peer file-SHARING protocol.
3: Moaning about not being able to do things while uploading is stupid you can always stop do your thing then restart the client or ul at slower rate when browsing.
4. Complaining about site admins being fascist is ironic as leeching fuckers like you are the one who force them to act like this in order to make you behave decently.
5. Moaning about your asynchronous connection is pathetic when a great deal of files are uploaded by home users with the same connection as you but who have the generousity to release stuff which you show your appreciation for by not thanking them and leeching as much as possible and giving nothing back therefore slowing the dl for others and yourselves and making people less likely to do it again and more likely to get the site admion to enforce ratio etc.
6. The one "Remember we are all thieves, cheats, crooks, pirates, blacksheep and in general dastardly people, that is why we use Bittorrent" makes me laugh such bullshit, have you never heard of honour among thieves anyway?
Put simply you are ruining it for everyone keep up you greedy antics and there will be no BT and no peer to peer filesharing. I don't know I wonder if you are retarded or just so selfish that you don't see that you are destroying the thing which provides you with so much good stuff.
You know deep down I am right so it's about time you wised up don't you think.
this is apt especially for peer to peer networks.
'What are the differences between Heaven and Hell?', a young Zen monk asked an aged Buddhist priest who was reknowned for his wisdom.
'There are no material differences,' replied the old monk.
'None at all?' asked the puzzled young monk.
'That's right. Both Heaven and Hell have a spacious hall with a big pot in the center in which noodles are boiled, giving off a delicious scent,' said the old priest. 'The size of the huge pan, the number of people sitting around the pot and the bowl of sauce placed in front of each diner are the same in both places.'
'The odd thing is that each diner is given a pair of meter-long chopsticks and must use them to eat the noodles.'
'To eat the noodles, you must hold the chopsticks properly at their ends,' the old monk told the young Zen monk.
'In the case of Hell's kitchen, people are always hungry because no matter how hard they try, they can't get the noodles into their mouths,' said the old priest.
'But isn't it the same case for the people in Heaven?' the junior monk inquited.
'No. They can eat because they each feed the person sitting opposite them at the table. That's the difference between Heaven and Hell,' explained the old monk.
Sind you copy pasted you text in 2 topic, here is my copy past responce:
1. If you can't even get the defenition of leech right, you are not one to talk. Leech = people who download widout giving anything in return. THAT is what leech means.
The is a fucking difference between leech's who are maybe 0.1% of the community, and people who upload but don't upload to a 1/1 score.
So get that fact right before you start yelling leech baka.
2. BT was designed as a replacement system of FTP, where the people help with the original poster. Check the daim BT site & history yourself. BT has become this monster beyond what the maker designed it for. BT was never designed to have a limit at all.
3. Like i said. Upload limits ... do they ring a bell??? Not just async, but also how much you can upload can be limited. Like i said, download a 13 eps anime serie, and you end up paying for it by uploading a entire week, where you can't do anything else. Or like you said, you lower your upload speed, and you end up paying 1 week & half.
4. See point 2. Some Tracker owners think BT is there own fire/forget system. These people are just as worse as your so called leech's.
5. See point 2.
6. Not my quote so i no reply on it.
As you say, we so called G3 user ruine it for everybody. Strange, that the trackers widout limits ( en banning ), have more people on them, have in general more speed, and have longer active torrents. Yet, trackers who have strange banning systems, have a LOT less people on them, slower speed & there torrents die way faster. Trust me, i've seen how a few fanatic torrent owner implemented that system, and how there torrents now need almost constant babysitting. And yes, people tend to stay away from trackers that can ban them, even when they are doing nothing wrong ( becouse banning with BT is somewhat tricky ).
If you don't beleef me, thats your right. But calling everybody name's becouse of it, well, it just shows that how ignorent you are.
Ok excuse my foul language I was just disgusted by the themes of this forum.
Here we go again:
1. Lets not quibble over the definition of a leech, as far as I am concerned anyone who dl files and actively tries his best not to share them with other users of the peer to peer network is a leech. They are acting in a way which will kill the efficiency of the network. The only reason these people upload anything is because the are forced to by the BT protocol and even still they try all sorts of tricks in order to give little back. I have witnessed some uploading 20mb while dl ing a 1.5gb file, if you think this will lead to a fast long lived torrent then by all means you and your friends go start up your own community and see how it works with everyone hitting and running. No wait I forgot leechers aren't likely to release anything in the first place so you will be kind of stuck for something download lol. The whole thing relies on generousity and good will 2 attributes that by the look of this forum are sadly lacking.
2. This may be right but as you said it has been adopted by the peer to peer filesharing community, and I doubt many of us run dedicated servers for your leeching convienience. If you want to download only go find some public ftp server with no ratio or some other system designed for this and leech until your heart is content.
3. As for upload limits this is a pretty feeble excuse also, what self respecting file sharer would sign up to an isp that imposes this sort of limit. My advice is to drop your stingy provider like it's hot, they will most likely switch to unlimited if they lose loads of customers to decent isps who don't impose limits anyway.
4. How is anyone who has the generosity to release stuff on BT as bad as a leech, that makes no sense. You should be grateful (the difference is they are contributing you are taking away) even if they do fire and forget although very few people do this, most seed for at least a week.
I also dispute you final statement and suggest to you that public trackers can attract larger swarms and therefore absorb more leechers with less effect. Then again if people continue to leech the seeders will get annoyed and then there will be less public tracker and less trackers that don't impose ratios and other restrictions.
This place seems like a bitching ground for people who got banned from sites/trackers I know this isn't nice but these restrictions only appeared because greedy people just take the piss out of others generosity by trying to upload nothing.
Personally I would prefer no banning, ratios and alike as it can lead to unfair treatment. I would prefer everyone to show some appreciation and try to upload as much as is feasible for their circumstances and then some for good measure.
For instance at this moment I have a large list of files seeding and qued to be seeded some more with share ratios ranging from 28 to 0.461 and I often reseed things that go dead ie have peers but no seed (and there is nothing special about my connection. I think you people should adopt more of this attitude then Bt would improve for everyone.
Oh and another thing even if releasers do fire and forget , as you say, this isn't even necessarily a bad thing as it means they can move on to releasing more new stuff.
2. You still seem to be ignoring the basic point of BT. It wasent designed for how some Tracker owners use it now. Becouse of that, some of them are getting so "tirranic". Let me give ya a few nice example of fucked up things. Anime groups do releases: BT & Irc. On there Irc channel they have x bots who are dedicated upload machine's. Yet, if you trie to download from they, you are 1 or maybe 2 people who can download. Now, those same people, do fire & forget releases on BT. They release the same stuff sometime's on BT, upload 1 one time, and expect the "community" to keep things alive. Now at the same time, while people sometime's are getting 90% - 99% complete & stuck, those same torrent & irc owners are still having dedicated bots on irc, where only 1 or 2 people can download at the same time.
Now this is what i call a) a wast of resource's b) foolish when some of those same tracker owners start banning becouse they don't think enouf people upload. While they are heaving dedicated leech machine's active on irc ...
It's called 2 value's for the same thing. THAT is what bothers me a lot.
3. Ho boy... this does show you dont have a clue what is going on in the world ... Let me give ya a example with my own country. You have company X that does cable Internet who does HAVE a limit system like i wrote about. Then you have 1 big ADSL provider ( a ex telephone monopholy company ) who control's the entire ADSL network ( and a few rare mini company's who only exist in a few city's, not even worth the time i'm writing this ). Now these are your options. Cable or ADSL. Both are monopolys in there own fields, one of adsl, and the other of cable internet. Now, lets say cable:
10GB limit ( global ) with 3 GB upload limit. With 192kb upstream ( they just added this becouse the adsl company incrased there upstream ) that you need to active. If you don't know about it ( 99% of there clients, its 128 Kb ). Now, if you want to upload some things, you end up with the limit. So you need to buy extra blocks at 5 euro for a 750mb increase in upstream. Not very cheap he ...
Now, the adsl company has about 10 providers who buy from them:
Most of them have 10GB limit's ( global ), with 198 kb upstream ( just changed last month ). So you are better of with adsl if you want to share. But, likr i said, it's a ex-monopoly company. If you want ADSL, you are forced to have a phone line with them. And not everybody wants a phoneline these day's ( GSM ), and the fee's every month are expensive for the phone line.
So 40+% of the country's internet users have cable, and the rest have adsl. Now, that make's about 400.000 people here, with a 3GB upload limit. ANd another 600.000 with a 10GB upload / Download limit.
So even IF you are with a adsl line, when you download a 5GB torrent, and are forced to go 1/1, you use up all your limit of that month, and you can surf at 56k modem speeds ...
Of those 10 providers, only 1 still has a fair use system, all the rest have 10GB limits.
Trying to say " drop your stingy provider like it's hot" doesent help a daim thing, when your country is using a monopoly system by the 2 internet providers. And they take good care, not to introduce things so they don't start a competition between each other. Effect: All the accounts are almost the same with all the providers.
One new provider tried this system of unlimited. Effect, massive people joined them, effect, they where not able to support the massive population. There service has been effected so mutch, that people where surfing etc at 2kb. Effect: A lot of people left, and they now already added a download limit of 40GB, and the system is still under so much presure, there is talk about 10GB. So this glory story doesent work in a situation like my country.
It may be better in yours, but trust me, here, it sucks big time. Effect: People are trying to get every bit & byte out of there downloads, thus creating a few 10.000 what you call leechers ( what i call limited uploaders ). Most try to give back, but they can't give back what some trackers owners think.
4. This point goes back to BT - FTP. The idear is to keep torrents alive with 1 master source. Seeding for one week, and the dropping the master source means the torrent dies ... I have said it before, fine, you can stop seeding, but atleased reseed when the torrent is getting below 1 seen copy ( aka, impossible to create a 100% torrent ). There are scripts out there that can do it. The new webseed script is one of them that is designed to create a continue service widout bringing the original source seeder to his knees. I'm not inhuman he ;)
5. I tell it how i see it in regards to public trackers vs banning trackers. The banning trackers end up pissing more people off then for there own good. A few things that heapon to "fair" people. Somebody start's downloading, but there are not many people left on that trackers ( hey, it's a banning trackers afterall ). So those people try to upload, but they get more data in, then they can upload. Effect: Those people get banned ( read a few dozen example of that already ). So those people are pissed off & don't bother with that torrent tracker any more. Etc etc ... there are a few dozen differend way's "legit" people got banned, and there is nothing worse then a pissed off customer.
Btw: I havent got bannned on any tracker becouse download / upload. I only get banned becouse i use G3. The so called Leech Client.
Yes, there are people who like to upload 0 & download 10 TB's ... that won't change, but this creating a elefant out of a mouse, isent helping also. A quick look at a few trackers who publish the downloaders/uploaders there stats, show almost no 0 uploaders ( most are people who havent even downloaded a bit - just added to trackers stats ). Those who upload the so called 20mb are rare at best. Most people do atleased 0.1 or higher.
The paranoiya that i see sometime's doesent follow what i notice on the released tracker list stat's.
Also, in regards to the leech getting anoyed from banning. Trust me, REAL leech's are like cheaters in CS. A breed you can't annoy away or destroy. There are people who will & keep getting past any banning system there exist. Widout trying, i know how to get past most banning system that exist today. Becouse the nature of BT was never designed as a banning system.
Most people agree with what i said about public trackers & banning. If you read a few forum's with the same discussions ( free forum's, i'm using this word, becouse like i said, there do exist "tirranic" torrent owners who even ban people who don't agree with the banning system, even if they got banned widout reason ( becouse the bad working banning system )). So like i was saying, on those forum's, the general consensus is that heavy banning only has a counter productive effect.
Don't forget, BT already pubishes people who leech with lower download speeds. This is what most anti-leech advocate's keep forgetting. The system works ( widout all those extra feature's like banning, and forced 1/1 etc ).