#28 Starting Prices

Current
open-WWC1D
nobody
7
2015-06-24
2009-07-04
Misiulo
No

While the starting European prices of Goods in Free Col are generally close to the original, however there still are some difference. The most obvious example seem to be goods such as muskets. In Col they are always 2/3 at the start, in Free Col - 1/3. Prices of horses and tools can be 1/2 or 2/3 but I've seen them start at 1/3 like in Free Col. And then they keep the 2 point difference between asking and offering price, as if it was the set minimum. In col the difference is 1 and, well, I have the "Names" file open before my eyes right now... I don't understand what the "Extra Burden means". But you can run the Old Game and see for yourself.

Discussion

  • Darklord

    Darklord - 2009-07-05
    • labels: 517857 --> 1165074
     
  • abartels

    abartels - 2009-07-06

    If the description in the file is correct, the "extra burden" is what needs to be added to a base difference of 1 to get to the fixed price difference between buying and selling a goods in europe.

    There seem to be differences between the definitions there, and the "price-difference" we have for our goods, but I seem to remember that, for example, all price differences of 1 were increased to 2 to avoid some other market-related bug or cheat. I'd be a little wary of changing this back without further discussion.

    Regarding the names file, there are in fact some details that don't seem to be implemented in FreeCol yet, including:
    - Starting prices aren't completely fixed, but some variety is allowed by a minimum and maximum starting price.
    - Also, prices are clamped to a minimum and maximum value.
    - Last but not least, some details about the workings of the Col1 market may be gathered from the other values, namely "Rise", "Fall", "Attrition" and "Volatility"

    For the record, price differences in Col1, according to that file, are:

    1 - Silver, Horses, Rum, Cigars, Cloth, Coats, Trade Goods, Tools, Muskets
    2 - Sugar, Tobacco, Cotton, Furs
    3 - Ore
    5 - Lumber
    8 - Food

     
  • Janet Hunt

    Janet Hunt - 2011-02-21
    • labels: 1165074 -->
     
  • Michael Vehrs

    Michael Vehrs - 2012-01-08
    • priority: 5 --> 7
     
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2013-01-16
    • labels: --> Server Gameplay
    • status: open --> open-WWC1D
    • milestone: --> Current
     
  • Calebrw

    Calebrw - 2014-12-12

    I've done some tabulation of Dutch Discoverer starting price values in the America Map only in Col1. The data gives you High, Low, Average and the Mode values for the dataset. The mode being the most common number, may offer a good starting value specification.

    Browse to the Starting Prices tab on the spreadsheet linked below:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19V7nnMdhcn4GHBK8rkgJCOOB-Ullzsf-F286oK4YM7I/pubhtml

    Please note that this data is incomplete and should be taken with a grain of salt, though every attempt at accuracy and elimination of variables has been taken. There are 10 random starts for each group with no bias to starting spot made for inclusion of data here.

    Update:
    Through 30 datasets, the data doesn't seem to be changing with difficulty level.

     
    Last edit: Calebrw 2014-12-13
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2014-12-29

    The spreadsheet is now linked to from the WWC1D wiki. There are some clear incompatibilities which we can fix, but I would like to see some non-Dutch results, or at least a comment that "I tried a bunch of times with non-Dutch and could not see a difference.".

     
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2015-06-23

    As Col1 appears to have consistent constant initial price differences with some randomization of the base level, the change required is in the price difference numbers, which has been mostly fixed in git.857d955.

    However Col1 has several goods with a price difference of 1 (cotton, furs, sugar, tobacco, cigars, cloth, coats, rum, trade goods, tools, muskets). If we use this price difference in FreeCol, there is an exploit where selling a large amount of goods causes the European price to drop by more than the price difference, allowing the same goods to be bought back again at a lower price, indefinitely. This is a serious problem, and we know that the FreeCol market model is flawed (PF#20), so it is probably best to tolerate an incompatibilty for now in the expectation it will eventually be removed after we fix PF#20.

    I will leave this report open as the data is not totally conclusive (non-Dutch checking mentioned above), but it should of itself not be considered a 1.0-blocker. The PF#20-related issue above is a blocker however.

     
    • Turbo Beholder

      Turbo Beholder - 2015-06-24

      Which is why extra compatibility elements must be optional.

      As to the price dropping in general...

      1. It doesn't take a degree in economics, but simple common sense to see that:
        1. If there was great excess of the goods in question, one extra boatload shouldn't change the price too much.
        2. If there was a shortage, unloading a merchantman should affect the price significantly, but buying back all the sold goods after their price drops should not be possible - most of that is gone.
      2. The exact behaviour can be changed by:
        1. Tweaking the amount of goods on market.
        2. Tweaking weight thereof in price adjustments.
        3. Calculating new prices and changing the amount of goods on market should always happen together, whether after the turn or immediately. Which is how (1.2) can be implemented.
       
      • Mike Pope

        Mike Pope - 2015-06-24

        Tweaking the amount of goods on market

        FreeCol does this.

         
    • Calebrw

      Calebrw - 2015-06-24

      I will leave this report open as the data is not totally conclusive (non-Dutch checking mentioned above)

      Unfortunately, I have loaned out my Col1 laptop to a friend and cannot get it to work on my 64-bit Windows system, so I've been unable to check Col1 issues since January/February.

      Caleb

       
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2015-06-24

    No worries Caleb, and belated thanks for the data. We are not (yet) blocked from releases due to WWC1D issues. I have at least 10 PFs that can probably be fixed without needing further information.

     

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