Rebel Sentiment

2011-03-30
2013-01-10
  • prometeo_peru

    prometeo_peru - 2011-03-30

    This has been bugging me for a while:
    Say, I have a large city which is 100% Rebel. This means, all colonists should be rebels. Then, i take one of those colonists to build a new colony. Suddenly, that new colony, which consists only of the previously rebel colonist, is now 100% Tory.

    It is necessary to have a rebel sentiment index for each unit/colonist.

     
  • Kalle Viiri

    Kalle Viiri - 2011-03-31

    Not necessary in my opinion, but it would add some robustness and intuitive feel to the current system. However, to save memory, there could be just a boolean (isRebel) which is false for tories and true for rebels. In colonies, when liberty bells reach a certain threshold, a random tory is turned rebel.

    However, a few things that should be answered: If a colonist can be rebel or tory, it the difference should preferably be observable at a glance without using menus - tories could wear weird hats or shirts or have a crown placed on them or anything. Also, having a system like this would allow one to field tory armies against the King - not a bad thing, especially if it can be used to add depth to Rev War.

     
  • prometeo_peru

    prometeo_peru - 2011-03-31

    I like the idea of being able to differentiate tories from rebels visually. Aditionally, and correct me if i'm mistaken, i believe that rebel sentiment can only rise in a colony (except from when you assign new colonists to that colony). It would be nice if there could also be events that increase tory sentiment. For instance, when you produce less food than the colony needs, or when you have no military units stationed on a colony, or when you lose a battle within a colony's influence area.

     
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2011-04-01

    Unit-level accounting of rebel sentiment has been suggested, as indeed has loyalty to other nations.  I think it makes sense.  However, it is a fairly substantial change from Col1, and I doubt any current developer will be rushing to implement this, at least not until FreeCol 1.0.

     
  • Kalle Viiri

    Kalle Viiri - 2011-04-01

    prometeo99: I'm fairly sure that a colony needs some liberty points to retain the Rebel sentiment - producing less will cause the Tory influence to rise. I think the amount is rather small but increases when the colony grows.

    mpope: Well, this is ideas for FreeCol 2 forum ;)

     
  • Phil Grant

    Phil Grant - 2011-04-01

    This thread is sliding down the slippery slope toward nationalism, one of the big differences between Civ II and Civ III! Nationalism completely changes the game. I'm thinking this should be in ideas for FreeCol 3 - assuming the dev team wants to go there.

    Some things to consider: The allegiance of captured colonists and colonies, the allegiance of tory soldiers, the allegiance of ships.

    Etc!

     
  • Kalle Viiri

    Kalle Viiri - 2011-04-01

    What do you mean by nationalism?

     
  • Phil Grant

    Phil Grant - 2011-04-04

    Nationalism in Civ III represents allegiance to your home, or a lingering allegiance to your former home. Colonization doesn't really have that. FreeCol has Tories and rebels; it doesn't really distinguish between French, English, Spanish, Dutch Tories and Rebels. If an English soldier captures a French colonist, that colonist immediately becomes English. In Civ III, the captured unit retains its previous nationality. The captured unit is a sort of rebel, ready to revolt under the right (wrong for you) conditions.

    In FreeCol, you, as the English, can capture Quebec, and then use those captured Quebecois to attack Montreal. You can arm those captured Frenchmen without worrying whether they will try to become French once more. In addition, those Frenchies might have been rebels before, but now they are 100% loyal English Tories. Yeah, Right!

    You buy a ship in Europe, and it is exactly the same as one built in your colony. Nevermind, I guess you can't actually buy a ship in Europe after you declare Independence.

    Only units in Colonies are Tories, If you arm a Tory and put him outside the colony, he acts like a rebel (in that he will fight for the rebel cause).

    To answer Promoteo99: the units you remove from Colonies are assumed to be Tories. When you remove a unit from a Colony, then the percentage of Rebels in the colony rises. If you remove a unit from a colony that is 100% rebel, and replace it with an immigrant fresh off the boat from Europe, the colony remains 100% rebel.

    That's because rebel sentiment is not tied to units, rebel sentiment is tied to "bells". The solution to your scenario would be to make bells transferrable. That, however, could cause more problems than it solves. That would change the nature of the game.

     
  • Anonymous - 2011-04-05

    I am not certain whether this thread is intended to discuss the nature of the game as it pertains to the historicism and economic determinism that it is based upon. We ought to be clear, nevertheless, that ignoring ethnicity is simply a means to keep the gameplay and programming  easier.
    Even though nationalism has so far been ostensibly avoided in the game, there is one aspect that contradicts that claim. When a veteran soldier is captured, he loses his veteran status. This is the only loss of experience suffered in the game. It's actually counterintuitive unless one takes into account some sense of nationalist allegiance. A captured soldier might even have greater experiences unless he is forcibly conscripted as a POW. I would like to propose as a means of enhancing variability and logic in the game that preachers, due to language barriers, and statesmen, due to obvious 'nationalistic' sentiments, be also demoted to free colonists.

     
  • Kalle Viiri

    Kalle Viiri - 2011-04-05

    Yeah, nationalism like that isn't part of Colonization and would be unnecessarily complicated in FreeCol as well if you ask me. However, moving the rebel/tory sentiment from colonies to colonists would be an intuitive reworking of the current system, not a huge expansion. Of course, the original ruleset should preserve the sentiment in the colonies.

     
  • Nicholas Shanks

    Nicholas Shanks - 2011-07-15

    @prometeo99: This really bugs me too. In fact, when I started playing FreeCol, and having only played a few games of Colonization about a 15 years previous, per-unit rebel sentiment is exactly how I thought the system worked! I would be very keen to implement it.

    @kviiri: "there could be just a boolean (isRebel) which is false for tories and true for rebels. In colonies, when liberty bells reach a certain threshold, a random tory is turned rebel". This is a good idea. I was thinking that units would have a spectrum of opinion from staunch royalists, via indifferent folks, to staunch rebels. I can see the benefits of both approaches. Can others give their opinions on which would work best?

    @phillyg: I am a big fan of the added realism that Nationalism in Civ III brought to the game. As such, in 2009 I added some variables to each unit to record what their origin nation was, but then forgot about FreeCol for a while, and those unused variables were removed. I have some time now to work on it again, and have just this week re-added the variables. Native converts even remember which tribe they came from.

    None of this information is currently used in the game, however. We could really do with suggestions on what influence nationality could have on a unit. For example, French soldiers under foreign command could refuse to attack fellow French cities. Or more extremely, French units under foreign ownership could refuse to fight at all!

    Captured units could even bring traits of their home nation with them, e.g. if you take a colony using captured Spanish soldiers, they may find more loot. Or if you trade with the natives using a captured Dutch wagon train, the natives offer better prices. A captured Swedish Master Carpenter produces more hammers. And so on. This would probably make micromanagement a pain though, so it's probably a bad idea. Better ideas are needed!

    Two obvious things we could do with no gameplay changes is display the information in an info panel somewhere, and use the information to affect the unit icons (so that at least natives don't turn white just because a politician shows up).

    @kviiri: You say this feature would add unnecessary complications? I prefer more realistic, intuitive human-like behaviour (e.g. missionaries must learn Nahuatl before you can conduct advanced trading with the Aztecs), but I wouldn't like to burden players who don't care about that. I would like your input on how we can develop features like this for players that want them, but make them optional or minimal in effect for players that don't want them.

     
  • Anonymous - 2012-07-22

    Definitely keep sentiments upon moving

     

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