Slavery

Nikolai
2011-11-03
2013-01-10
  • Nikolai

    Nikolai - 2011-11-03

    I am sorry for bad English.
    Many thoughts - I will gradually state, if nobody against.
    I will be happy to see, if though something is useful in the long term.

    So: slavery and slaves.
    I think, for anybody not a secret as there was a colonization.
    As it sees to me:
    The founding father, say, John Kedvell Kelhun, gives the chance constructions of the slaveholding market. On which it is possible to buy-sell slaves.
    At capture of American Indian settlements - necessarily part of inhabitants appears in the form of slaves.
    Probably, the organization of any expeditions, on capture of slaves, for card limits, with эвентным an outcome.
    In American Indian settlements to enter an option: to buy-sell slaves.
    New skill: the supervisor. It he can carry on negotiations on purchase-sale and work in the slaveholding market.
    Now sense for what it is all.
    To make on extraction - that is, on working cages of a city, possibility to work not on one unit, and group of slaves plus the supervisor.
    That is - a usual mountain cage, the miner works. We build mine - and it is possible to put on this cage of the supervisor and three slaves.
    Or - the usual improved grain cage. We build a plantation - and a workplace for group of slaves it is ready.
    The same at wood extraction, and other kinds of extraction.
    Final, one slave won't let out production, say, half from the expert much. But if them it is a little - possible to lift extraction in one and a half-two time.
    Somehow so.
    What will tell, it is real or not?

     
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2011-11-03

    Slavery has been repeated proposed, and repeatedly ignored by the developers.  While everyone concedes it was historically present, adding it as a game feature is regarded as offensive by a large number of people.  This may not be immediately obvious to you-- I am guessing you have not lived in the USA, where the historic consequences of slavery remain a living political issue.  Speaking only for myself now, I am not going to work on such a feature for three reasons:

    1. The Col1 developers had the opportunity to do this, and clearly chose not to.
    2. There are much more pressing problems in FreeCol.
    3. I do not need the hassle this would cause.  I work on FreeCol for fun.

    FWIW I am no expert on US politics, having only lived there for about 8 months, but I think I have the basic understanding right.

     
  • Joel Snyder

    Joel Snyder - 2011-11-03

    The North American path of slavery was really poisonous compared to other nations responses to it which partly explains the problems the USA had with it and its aftermath.  Originally colonization tried to deal with the problem with convict laborers and indian converts.  Any attempts to further expand on slavery in the colonies runs into problems with scale, complexity (the KISS principle), and playability.  Currently there ore options in the XML files that can kind of replicate the effect of slavery, such as having no increase in the cost of recruits, but nothing that does a good job of it yet.  If anyone has ideas they should keep it simple, accept the limitations of the game scale (individual runaways would have no effect at the scale the game is played), and probably think it through as an XML option that could be activated or ignored. IMHO

     
  • Nikolai

    Nikolai - 2011-11-04

    That is - it basically anybody won't be engaged, I have correctly understood?
    All right, then we will go further.

     
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2011-11-04

    > basically anybody won't be engaged

    Nothing happens in FreeCol unless someone does the work.  Having ideas and making suggestions is easy (I have a large file full of them), and there are a lot of people doing that.  Making an idea work is hard, and there are very few people doing that.  I am quite busy still with making ideas that do not quite work, work properly, otherwise known as bug fixing.  So please understand that while making suggestions is welcome and the reason this forum exists, the likelihood that they will show up in the next release is very low at the present.

     
  • Nikolai

    Nikolai - 2011-11-05

    the likelihood that they will show up in the next release is very low at the present.

    But chances, what something is useful, is?
    For this purpose also it is expressed the opinion.
    Yours faithfully.

     
  • Mike Pope

    Mike Pope - 2011-11-05

    I do not really understand your last question, but I suspect the answer is to repeat: `Nothing happens in FreeCol unless someone does the work.'

     
  • PekkaButtler

    PekkaButtler - 2011-11-15

    Snyder1066
    "Any attempts to further expand on slavery in the colonies runs into problems with scale, complexity (the KISS principle), and playability"

    Without discussing the "every nice idea necessitates programming" -part, I agree that the OP's original idea of how to do it was too complicated.

    Here's another way:
    The simplest:
    - add another unit type (slaves) comparable with the convicts,
       - which can be bought dirt cheap in Europe (not historically inaccurate as many European ports were slave trade centers)
       - can be gained as spoils of war
    - every slave used in a colony has a negative effect (liberty bell production reduced by 2 or 3 for every slave)
    - slaves can be released only through a specific founding father, after which slavery is also abolished.
    - buying of slaves in Europe becomes impossible after a specific year (say 1700 / 1750? - I can do the research if the idea is to be
    implemented).

     
  • Jay

    Jay - 2012-05-19

    @OP
    You are completely right and it's easily done: make convicts purchasable in Europe. Slavery (in Russia's case, serfdom) ended in every player country after 1800, by which time the player should've achieved independence and won't have access to the market.

    Let any racists into the idea of slavery for its own sake make their own colored pixels; let the historicists refuse to upgrade them: everyone else will get them early and figure out how to upgrade them into full citizens as quickly as possible.

    An historically accurate implementation would involve penalizing convicts' ability to produce (e.g.) tobacco and propping up sugar and cotton's raw prices far beyond what the current economic model allows, though. That would be welcome, but harder work for the programmers, particularly if they get down to the specifics of mimicking things like the cotton gin.

    @The North American path of slavery was really poisonous compared to other nations responses to it
    I know this is the kind of argument mpope is aiming to avoid by not including the units, but this is something like seven different layers of BS. First, not an issue in Canada: American. Second, America wasn't a country when the path was established: British. Third, Britain was the first country actually employing a lucrative slave economy model to voluntarily end it. Fourth, Britain's administration of its slaves and colonies was far less exploitive and poisonous than any other country you could name with the possible except of Denmark after the Moravian missionaries (despite great hardships and opposition from the Danes themselves) messed up its operations. The lingering problems compared to worse-managed colonies like Haiti and Brazil are… not that bad compared to the lingering problems in worse-managed countries like Haiti and Brazil; it's simply that the injustice stands in greater relief against the words employed by the British theorists and American founding fathers in their own struggles against monarchy.

     
  • Jay

    Jay - 2012-05-19

    Secondary point: the only reason for slave units separate from the convicts (apart from RP) would be if their stats were somehow significantly different. In the real world, the major difference was greater immunity than Indians to European diseases and greater immunity than whites to tropical ones (although realize that malaria used to be common as far north as Kentucky and Maryland).

    Until that's modeled as well, there's no need for a separate unit. Just stop making them "religious immigrants" at all (separate issue, but it is silly) and make them purchasable (the king wasn't above making money off the European convicts, either).

     

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