fofredux-devel

[Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Kevin <ke...@dr...>]

Andrew,
    I know we decided on prototype for a javascript/ajax lib, and that's 
fine.  Just wanted to throw this out there as an alternative.  It seems 
to be getting good reviews among even hard core prototype users, which I 
find interesting.   The demos for the Interface plugin are nice.(see 
last link)

http://jquery.com/blog/2006/08/20/why-jquerys-philosophy-is-better/
http://jquery.com/
http://interface.eyecon.ro/

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Evan R. <eva...@gm...>]

hey guys,

on a project at work, we are using the yahoo library for some major
rehauls to an old VB app, which we are doing as an ajax web frontend
to jsp's with struts framework.  (sorry for the buzzword overflow)

in any case, yahoo provides some killer ui stuff, which is a cakewalk
to implement as well as their own ajax connection libraries.  i'd also
imagine that yahoo's stuff would be more supported over the long run,
since it's got the commercial appeal.

the 2 main ui things (a seperate discussion, but worth mentioning)
that i love there are the treeview, which would be perfect for an
expandable/collapsable feeds list and the drag and drop capablities of
everything (see flickr or my.yahoo.com for some ideas)

so yahoo presents a 3rd possibilities, with the chance of using some
nice frontend stuff in the future.

/evan

On 8/23/06, Kevin <ke...@dr...> wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>     I know we decided on prototype for a javascript/ajax lib, and that's
> fine.  Just wanted to throw this out there as an alternative.  It seems
> to be getting good reviews among even hard core prototype users, which I
> find interesting.   The demos for the Interface plugin are nice.(see
> last link)
>
> http://jquery.com/blog/2006/08/20/why-jquerys-philosophy-is-better/
> http://jquery.com/
> http://interface.eyecon.ro/
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Fofredux-devel mailing list
> Fof...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
>

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Benjamin S. <bst...@gm...>]

To speak from the dead, I'd second the Yahoo UI library as being
really pretty great.  It's very nice, and it has optimized versions
and debug versions of all the widgets, and it's maintained and has
*good* docs (I can't say the same of Prototype as of the last time I
looked at it).

--Benjy

On 8/23/06, Evan Roth <eva...@gm...> wrote:
> hey guys,
>
> on a project at work, we are using the yahoo library for some major
> rehauls to an old VB app, which we are doing as an ajax web frontend
> to jsp's with struts framework.  (sorry for the buzzword overflow)
>
> in any case, yahoo provides some killer ui stuff, which is a cakewalk
> to implement as well as their own ajax connection libraries.  i'd also
> imagine that yahoo's stuff would be more supported over the long run,
> since it's got the commercial appeal.
>
> the 2 main ui things (a seperate discussion, but worth mentioning)
> that i love there are the treeview, which would be perfect for an
> expandable/collapsable feeds list and the drag and drop capablities of
> everything (see flickr or my.yahoo.com for some ideas)
>
> so yahoo presents a 3rd possibilities, with the chance of using some
> nice frontend stuff in the future.
>
> /evan
>
> On 8/23/06, Kevin <ke...@dr...> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >     I know we decided on prototype for a javascript/ajax lib, and that's
> > fine.  Just wanted to throw this out there as an alternative.  It seems
> > to be getting good reviews among even hard core prototype users, which I
> > find interesting.   The demos for the Interface plugin are nice.(see
> > last link)
> >
> > http://jquery.com/blog/2006/08/20/why-jquerys-philosophy-is-better/
> > http://jquery.com/
> > http://interface.eyecon.ro/
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fofredux-devel mailing list
> > Fof...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Fofredux-devel mailing list
> Fof...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
>
>

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Andrew T. <ajt...@hi...>]

Good finds - these are worth looking at. I had unofficially chosen
Prototype due to its large base, stability, and my familiarity with
it. However, no JS coding has been done yet, so we can look at these
options.

I think a big thing to think about when evaluating these is how to
make them "unobtrusive" - graceful degradation to non-JS browsers,
clean code/maintenance.

If anyone on the mailing list has any feedback on JS libraries they've
used, nows the time to speak up! :)

Andrew

On 8/23/06, Evan Roth <eva...@gm...> wrote:
> hey guys,
>
> on a project at work, we are using the yahoo library for some major
> rehauls to an old VB app, which we are doing as an ajax web frontend
> to jsp's with struts framework.  (sorry for the buzzword overflow)
>
> in any case, yahoo provides some killer ui stuff, which is a cakewalk
> to implement as well as their own ajax connection libraries.  i'd also
> imagine that yahoo's stuff would be more supported over the long run,
> since it's got the commercial appeal.
>
> the 2 main ui things (a seperate discussion, but worth mentioning)
> that i love there are the treeview, which would be perfect for an
> expandable/collapsable feeds list and the drag and drop capablities of
> everything (see flickr or my.yahoo.com for some ideas)
>
> so yahoo presents a 3rd possibilities, with the chance of using some
> nice frontend stuff in the future.
>
> /evan
>
> On 8/23/06, Kevin <ke...@dr...> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >     I know we decided on prototype for a javascript/ajax lib, and that's
> > fine.  Just wanted to throw this out there as an alternative.  It seems
> > to be getting good reviews among even hard core prototype users, which I
> > find interesting.   The demos for the Interface plugin are nice.(see
> > last link)
> >
> > http://jquery.com/blog/2006/08/20/why-jquerys-philosophy-is-better/
> > http://jquery.com/
> > http://interface.eyecon.ro/
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fofredux-devel mailing list
> > Fof...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Fofredux-devel mailing list
> Fof...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
>


-- 
Andrew Turner
ajt...@hi...        42.4266N x 83.4931W
http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Benjamin S. <bst...@gm...>]

And, it's always pretty trivial to make JS unobtrusive -- you just
attach a callback on page load to go through and muck with the bare
bones DOM to make it do what you want.   Super easy, and it even
allows you to do things like prototype in greasemonkey / etc.

For that might matter, you might want to consider the "API" that your
DOM is going to be exposing to greasemonkey developers, and possibly
even document your DOM's "API" as a way to writing FOFr "plugins" --
write a greasemonkey driver with some functions that can be used to
get all posts, etc, and then distribute that to your users.

--Benjy

On 8/23/06, Andrew Turner <ajt...@hi...> wrote:
> Good finds - these are worth looking at. I had unofficially chosen
> Prototype due to its large base, stability, and my familiarity with
> it. However, no JS coding has been done yet, so we can look at these
> options.
>
> I think a big thing to think about when evaluating these is how to
> make them "unobtrusive" - graceful degradation to non-JS browsers,
> clean code/maintenance.
>
> If anyone on the mailing list has any feedback on JS libraries they've
> used, nows the time to speak up! :)
>
> Andrew
>
> On 8/23/06, Evan Roth <eva...@gm...> wrote:
> > hey guys,
> >
> > on a project at work, we are using the yahoo library for some major
> > rehauls to an old VB app, which we are doing as an ajax web frontend
> > to jsp's with struts framework.  (sorry for the buzzword overflow)
> >
> > in any case, yahoo provides some killer ui stuff, which is a cakewalk
> > to implement as well as their own ajax connection libraries.  i'd also
> > imagine that yahoo's stuff would be more supported over the long run,
> > since it's got the commercial appeal.
> >
> > the 2 main ui things (a seperate discussion, but worth mentioning)
> > that i love there are the treeview, which would be perfect for an
> > expandable/collapsable feeds list and the drag and drop capablities of
> > everything (see flickr or my.yahoo.com for some ideas)
> >
> > so yahoo presents a 3rd possibilities, with the chance of using some
> > nice frontend stuff in the future.
> >
> > /evan
> >
> > On 8/23/06, Kevin <ke...@dr...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Andrew,
> > >     I know we decided on prototype for a javascript/ajax lib, and that's
> > > fine.  Just wanted to throw this out there as an alternative.  It seems
> > > to be getting good reviews among even hard core prototype users, which I
> > > find interesting.   The demos for the Interface plugin are nice.(see
> > > last link)
> > >
> > > http://jquery.com/blog/2006/08/20/why-jquerys-philosophy-is-better/
> > > http://jquery.com/
> > > http://interface.eyecon.ro/
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> > > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Fofredux-devel mailing list
> > > Fof...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > _______________________________________________
> > Fofredux-devel mailing list
> > Fof...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
> >
>
>
> --
> Andrew Turner
> ajt...@hi...        42.4266N x 83.4931W
> http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Fofredux-devel mailing list
> Fof...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
>
>

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Andrew T. <ajt...@hi...>]

On 8/23/06, Benjamin Stewart <bst...@gm...> wrote:
> For that might matter, you might want to consider the "API" that your
> DOM is going to be exposing to greasemonkey developers, and possibly
> even document your DOM's "API" as a way to writing FOFr "plugins" --
> write a greasemonkey driver with some functions that can be used to
> get all posts, etc, and then distribute that to your users.

Very interesting suggestion - though this just addresses UI plugins,
and not programmatic plugins (for data filtering, new views, etc).
Still, could maybe do some interesting things via GM.

Keep up with the suggestions :)

Andrew
-- 
Andrew Turner
ajt...@hi...        42.4266N x 83.4931W
http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Benjamin S. <bst...@gm...>]

You probably don't want me to do that -- you don't have any idea how
creative I could get.  ;-)

--Benjy

On 8/23/06, Andrew Turner <ajt...@hi...> wrote:
> On 8/23/06, Benjamin Stewart <bst...@gm...> wrote:
> > For that might matter, you might want to consider the "API" that your
> > DOM is going to be exposing to greasemonkey developers, and possibly
> > even document your DOM's "API" as a way to writing FOFr "plugins" --
> > write a greasemonkey driver with some functions that can be used to
> > get all posts, etc, and then distribute that to your users.
>
> Very interesting suggestion - though this just addresses UI plugins,
> and not programmatic plugins (for data filtering, new views, etc).
> Still, could maybe do some interesting things via GM.
>
> Keep up with the suggestions :)
>
> Andrew
> --
> Andrew Turner
> ajt...@hi...        42.4266N x 83.4931W
> http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA
>

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Kevin <ke...@dr...>]

> On 8/23/06, Benjamin Stewart <bst...@gm...> wrote:
>> For that might matter, you might want to consider the "API" that your
>> DOM is going to be exposing to greasemonkey developers, and possibly
>> even document your DOM's "API" as a way to writing FOFr "plugins" --
>> write a greasemonkey driver with some functions that can be used to
>> get all posts, etc, and then distribute that to your users.
>
> Very interesting suggestion - though this just addresses UI plugins,
> and not programmatic plugins (for data filtering, new views, etc).
> Still, could maybe do some interesting things via GM.
>
> Keep up with the suggestions :)

I had never seen YUI before today.  It looks nice and complete.  One thin=
g
I liked was it's support of namespaces.  You can register
function/object/etc to a namespace which is good for extensibility.

I also like Grids CSS.  For a CSS novice, this is great.  No more tables
for layout. http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/



--=20
Kevin

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Evan R. <eva...@gm...>]

yeah yui is great.  i've been playing with it the last 2 weeks, and it
just makes me more excited every day.  hah! and my boss keeps telling
me he wants a weak/simple UI, since they always cost too much to
develop.

if browser support is a concern, look at this:
http://yuiblog.com/blog/2006/08/18/browser-support-update-2006q3/ and
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/gbs_browser-chart.html
those yahoo guys are pretty serious.

i think if we were to follow similar lines, we'd be way overdoing it.
we should keep in mind that the avg fofr user is probably a step up
from the avg y! user.  (meaning we don't need to worry about IE5.5,
but might want to think about linux support or even <cough> mobile
browsers)

/evan


On 8/23/06, Kevin <ke...@dr...> wrote:
>
> > On 8/23/06, Benjamin Stewart <bst...@gm...> wrote:
> >> For that might matter, you might want to consider the "API" that your
> >> DOM is going to be exposing to greasemonkey developers, and possibly
> >> even document your DOM's "API" as a way to writing FOFr "plugins" --
> >> write a greasemonkey driver with some functions that can be used to
> >> get all posts, etc, and then distribute that to your users.
> >
> > Very interesting suggestion - though this just addresses UI plugins,
> > and not programmatic plugins (for data filtering, new views, etc).
> > Still, could maybe do some interesting things via GM.
> >
> > Keep up with the suggestions :)
>
> I had never seen YUI before today.  It looks nice and complete.  One thing
> I liked was it's support of namespaces.  You can register
> function/object/etc to a namespace which is good for extensibility.
>
> I also like Grids CSS.  For a CSS novice, this is great.  No more tables
> for layout. http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Fofredux-devel mailing list
> Fof...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
>

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Andrew T. <ajt...@hi...>]

On 8/23/06, Evan Roth <eva...@gm...> wrote:

> i think if we were to follow similar lines, we'd be way overdoing it.
> we should keep in mind that the avg fofr user is probably a step up
> from the avg y! user.  (meaning we don't need to worry about IE5.5,
> but might want to think about linux support or even <cough> mobile
> browsers)

True - the avg user is probably above IE5 - though it's nice to be
backwards compat as much as possible. And mobile support is definitely
desired - ergo my comment before about graceful deg. Though the mobile
version would probably just have a diff't php view and perhaps could
be some kind of 'plugin'

Andrew
-- 
Andrew Turner
ajt...@hi...        42.4266N x 83.4931W
http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Kevin <ke...@dr...>]

> Good finds - these are worth looking at. I had unofficially chosen
> Prototype due to its large base, stability, and my familiarity with
> it. However, no JS coding has been done yet, so we can look at these
> options.
>
> I think a big thing to think about when evaluating these is how to
> make them "unobtrusive" - graceful degradation to non-JS browsers,
> clean code/maintenance.
>
> If anyone on the mailing list has any feedback on JS libraries they've
> used, nows the time to speak up! :)

I think anything is better than POJS.(plain old javascript)   The feature=
s
of Prototype and YUI seem to be about equal.(ajax, DOM manipulation,
events, etc)  I'm leaning toward YUI because of what I've seen with the
Logger.  I don't know what Prototype has for logging/debugging, but I
think that's a key feature to have from a development point of view.

http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/logger/

--=20
Kevin

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Benjamin S. <bst...@gm...>]

For logging and general debugging, you should be using Firebug.  It's
fantastic for all web dev work.

On 8/28/06, Kevin <ke...@dr...> wrote:
>
> > Good finds - these are worth looking at. I had unofficially chosen
> > Prototype due to its large base, stability, and my familiarity with
> > it. However, no JS coding has been done yet, so we can look at these
> > options.
> >
> > I think a big thing to think about when evaluating these is how to
> > make them "unobtrusive" - graceful degradation to non-JS browsers,
> > clean code/maintenance.
> >
> > If anyone on the mailing list has any feedback on JS libraries they've
> > used, nows the time to speak up! :)
>
> I think anything is better than POJS.(plain old javascript)   The features
> of Prototype and YUI seem to be about equal.(ajax, DOM manipulation,
> events, etc)  I'm leaning toward YUI because of what I've seen with the
> Logger.  I don't know what Prototype has for logging/debugging, but I
> think that's a key feature to have from a development point of view.
>
> http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/logger/
>
> --
> Kevin
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Fofredux-devel mailing list
> Fof...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
>
>

Re: [Fofredux-devel] prototype vs. jQuery

[Kevin <ke...@dr...>]

Benjamin wrote:
> For logging and general debugging, you should be using Firebug.  It's
> fantastic for all web dev work.


Wow that is a kick ass extension.  And YUI Logger integrates with Firebug=
.
 Bonus!

-Kevin



>
> On 8/28/06, Kevin <ke...@dr...> wrote:
>>
>> > Good finds - these are worth looking at. I had unofficially chosen
>> > Prototype due to its large base, stability, and my familiarity with
>> > it. However, no JS coding has been done yet, so we can look at these
>> > options.
>> >
>> > I think a big thing to think about when evaluating these is how to
>> > make them "unobtrusive" - graceful degradation to non-JS browsers,
>> > clean code/maintenance.
>> >
>> > If anyone on the mailing list has any feedback on JS libraries they'=
ve
>> > used, nows the time to speak up! :)
>>
>> I think anything is better than POJS.(plain old javascript)   The
>> features
>> of Prototype and YUI seem to be about equal.(ajax, DOM manipulation,
>> events, etc)  I'm leaning toward YUI because of what I've seen with th=
e
>> Logger.  I don't know what Prototype has for logging/debugging, but I
>> think that's a key feature to have from a development point of view.
>>
>> http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/logger/
>>
>> --
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
>> security?
>> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
>> easier
>> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
>> Geronimo
>> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&da=
t=3D121642
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fofredux-devel mailing list
>> Fof...@li...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fofredux-devel
>>
>>
>


--=20
Kevin