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From: marius p. <ma...@gm...> - 2008-10-08 10:35:05
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Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few designs for the new firebirdsql.org website He asked for feedback and what should be done next Please to send the feedback on firebird-website mailing list https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-website http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design1.jpg http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design2.jpg http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design3.jpg -- developer flamerobin.org |
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From: Jiri C. <di...@ci...> - 2008-10-08 12:34:26
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Hello,
if I have to choose one, I prefer the third. But none of these is
"WoW" ;) for me. :(
--
Jiri {x2} Cincura (CTO x2develop.com)
http://blog.vyvojar.cz/jirka/ | http://www.ID3renamer.com
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From: Paul V. <pa...@vi...> - 2008-10-08 12:35:46
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Hi all, > Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few > designs for the new firebirdsql.org website > He asked for feedback and what should be done next A first short reaction to the designs. Orange is our trademark colour, but especially "our" strong kind of orange easily becomes overwhelming if used as a fill colour for large or even medium-sized areas. I therefore like the first design best. Even there, I think the orange selection bar with the grey letters is ugly. Maybe it would be possible to use two oranges: the strong orange for the logo and possibly some linings, and a softer, lighter orange for selections bars, fillings and the like. Apart from the colours used, I think all three designs are far better than what we have now. I like 1 and 3 better than 2 because they have different background colors for the navigation bar and the main content area. What I like about all three is that they look professional and serious (not "flashy" or "sexy" or with all kinds of bells, whistles and animations shouting loudly to get your attention) without getting dry or boring. What I also like - in connection to the above - is the simple two-column layout. That's absolutely the best. All that said, I'm not wildly enthusiastic about any one of the designs. But I take it there will be plenty of room to talk about the details yet. And then, a website is not something that you have to go "Ooooohhhh" and "Aaaaahhhh" about. It has to be useful, and clear, and the user should be able to find what he or she needs with relative ease. And if it's also beautiful, well, that's a plus, but 'nice' is fine too. The most important thing now is that for the first time we seem to be really on our way to developing a better website. And that's something I *am* wildly enthusiastic about. And I want to thank Bandean Lorand and all the others involved for making this possible! Cheers, Paul Vinkenoog |
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From: Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...> - 2008-10-08 19:41:26
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All, I agree with Paul that the "official" orange color is too strong if used as the background for large areas, but it should still be very good for the logo/title text and probably section captions. One idea that could be possibly derived from all the proposed pictures is a combination of three colors: orange (see above), 50% gray/blue (other backgrounds, like in demos #1 and #2) and white (text area). I'd like to avoid the plain gray color we can see at the demo #1. The color scheme #3 is too much contrasty (which does attract quick attention but it's IMHO not very professional). I'm also not sure about the black areas there (especially if the site is going to be center aligned on the screen). Other thoughts from the top of my head: - menu items should be visually separated (e.g. by divider lines) - sidebar should also be separated from the text region, either by drawings or by color - it might look good to isolate sidebar sections also by drawings, similar to ingres.com, just placed vertically - the expanded menu color should be more different from the underlying text color (demo #3 shows a bad example here) - I do like the 3D look (mostly area overflows, not shadows) of the layout in demo #3, but I'm not going to insist :-) As a side note, I'm not really sure we need an expandable menu. It was considered a cool feature a few years ago, but I think it becomes less popular nowadays. Also, a cleverly organized sidebar with quick links to most popular pages mostly eliminates the need in such a menu, as it's usually not a big problem to go through two pages for rare hyper-jumps. Just my $0.02 :-) Dmitry |
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From: Martijn T. <m.t...@up...> - 2008-10-08 12:39:59
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Hello Marius, > Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few > designs for the new firebirdsql.org website > He asked for feedback and what should be done next What the web-team needs and wants can be explained by Pavel, I think. Martijn Tonies Database Workbench - tool for InterBase, Firebird, MySQL, NexusDB, Oracle & MS SQL Server Upscene Productions http://www.upscene.com My thoughts: http://blog.upscene.com/martijn/ Database development questions? Check the forum! http://www.databasedevelopmentforum.com |
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From: Milan B. <mi...@pa...> - 2008-10-08 14:37:25
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marius popa wrote: > http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design1.jpg design1 is my favorite. Looks nice, and has that 'corporate' feel to it ;) > http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design2.jpg I don't like design2 because of too much gray color. > http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design3.jpg design3 is nice, it has a kind of "Firebird" theme to it. BTW, could you use the new FlameRobin icon? (Actually, it is not that new, it's two years old). Thanks, -- Milan Babuskov http://www.flamerobin.org http://www.guacosoft.com |
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From: Helen B. <he...@ii...> - 2008-10-09 05:28:31
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At 00:36 9/10/2008, Milan Babuskov wrote: >BTW, could you use the new FlameRobin icon? (Actually, it is not that >new, it's two years old). I've not seen it anywhere except on the 16-colour icons in the Windows version of the software - and then only if you use the "Large Icons" option, which I never do. at 32 * 32 pixels there's nothing useful to do with it. I scoured the 'net via Google images and found something like the Windows icon at some obscure website that seems to exist for no other purpose but to display icons for FOSS software. However, considering that they have a Firebird logo there that is *really ancient*, I don't have much hope that I have found the *current* Flamerobin icon. It is nowhere to be seen on FR's own website (unless of course the current one is a 100% transparent gif!). Please look at the main page of the Firebird site and tell me whether that is the current FR icon. Note that it is "flamerobin4.gif" for us, which means you guys have had lots of icons! Next time you change it, you might like to think about sending us a copy. Helen |
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From: Milan B. <mi...@pa...> - 2008-10-09 09:59:49
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Helen Borrie wrote: >> BTW, could you use the new FlameRobin icon? (Actually, it is not that >> new, it's two years old). > > I've not seen it anywhere except on the 16-colour icons in the Windows version of the software - and then only if you use the "Large Icons" option, which I never do. at 32 * 32 pixels there's nothing useful to do with it. It has been available from the website in "Developer pages" section since 2006. I do admit you have to dig 3 links deep to get there. However, due to some sf.net changes, our Wiki is no longer accessible. > main page of the Firebird site and tell me whether that is the current FR icon Yes. > Note that it is "flamerobin4.gif" for us, which means you guys have had lots of icons! We have different sizes, and 2 variants (with and without a white background circle. > Next time you change it, you might like to think about sending us a copy. Sure. Although, there are no plans to change it again - ever. Thanks, -- Milan Babuskov http://www.flamerobin.org http://www.guacosoft.com |
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From: Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...> - 2008-10-08 13:41:55
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All, Should we really discuss the visual design (which includes not only the colors/style but also the contents layout) without having an agreement on the overall website structure (e.g. what should be exposed through the main page)? Wouldn't it possibly imply a more complex layout than the current "sidebar plus the news track" one that Paul V. seems to like :-)? Or was there a decision to keep the current structure "as is" (without considering anything else) for the time being? Dmitry |
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From: Jiri C. <di...@ci...> - 2008-10-08 15:25:53
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On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Dmitry Yemanov <fir...@ya...> wrote:
> All,
>
> Should we really discuss the visual design (which includes not only the
> colors/style but also the contents layout) without having an agreement
I think colors and "feeling" (shapes etc.) yes. The final cut, no.
> on the overall website structure (e.g. what should be exposed through
I was proposing getting some agreement on new/old structure as first
step. But it looks like, that everybody is happy with current state.
:)
--
Jiri {x2} Cincura (CTO x2develop.com)
http://blog.vyvojar.cz/jirka/ | http://www.ID3renamer.com
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From: Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...> - 2008-10-08 19:10:56
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Jiri Cincura wrote: > > I was proposing getting some agreement on new/old structure as first > step. But it looks like, that everybody is happy with current state. > :) I'm more or less okay with the current ideology but not with the navigation :-) Anyway, more on this later. Dmitry |
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From: Paul V. <pa...@vi...> - 2008-10-08 16:10:20
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Dmitry Yemanow wrote: > Should we really discuss the visual design (which includes not only the > colors/style but also the contents layout) without having an agreement > on the overall website structure (e.g. what should be exposed through > the main page)? I think we can discuss both. It's true that structural requirements may limit our choices for the layout, but IMO not in such a rigid way that we can't talk about colour palettes and general 'look and feel' before we have the structure wrapped up. But... I'm also perfectly happy to discuss structure first and style later. I just wanted to reply quickly to the three designs, particularly because I wanted to show my appreciation. And I also find it very stimulating to have something tangible to look at, even if it's "only" a page design. > Wouldn't it possibly imply a more complex layout than > the current "sidebar plus the news track" one that Paul V. seems to like Gee, I hope not! :-) Yes, for some pages it may be necessary. But I think that the vast majority of our informational pages (and especially the home page) could and should do with one sidebar and a main content area. > Or was there a decision to keep the current structure "as is" > (without considering anything else) for the time being? Hmm, can't remember. What I do know is that our on-disk structure, the way we have organized our files on the web server, is incredibly messy in places. But this is something we can solve independently from the visual design (though not always completely independently from the internal page structure, with its PHP scripts that walk directories and expect certain files to be in certain places). Cheers, Paul Vinkenoog |
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From: Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...> - 2008-10-08 19:09:03
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Paul Vinkenoog wrote: > > I think we can discuss both. It's true that structural requirements may limit our choices for the layout, but IMO not in such a rigid way that we can't talk about colour palettes and general 'look and feel' before we have the structure wrapped up. This is okay to me. My point was mostly about the web developer who might go too much deep into the details before we agree on the "core". > I just wanted to reply quickly to the three designs, particularly because I wanted to show my appreciation. And I also find it very stimulating to have something tangible to look at, even if it's "only" a page design. Same for me :-) Dmitry |
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From: Carlos H. C. <li...@wa...> - 2008-10-08 19:56:37
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About colors, I liked #3. I would change the "donate" image to a better one. I hope this first draft is just to check colors and layout, since I see many things on it that remembers me of the actual website (what I really would like to avoid). Going further, I would simplify the sidebar (too many items). It would need just main ones, that would send user to another page with clean and well organized links about the selected subject. So, I guess before "improving" anything, we need to build a structure tree of the site sections and its contents. []s Carlos H. Cantu http://www.warmboot.com.br FireBase - http://www.FireBase.com.br Blog - http://blog.firebase.com.br mp> Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few mp> designs for the new firebirdsql.org website mp> He asked for feedback and what should be done next mp> Please to send the feedback on firebird-website mailing list mp> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/firebird-website mp> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design1.jpg mp> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design2.jpg mp> http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design3.jpg |
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From: Giovanni P. <gpr...@so...> - 2008-10-08 22:46:26
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> nice, ugly, I don't like the color I've seen dozens of project fail this way, when the designer simply throws the towel. These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown them in frivolous and subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on the current structure. Afterwards you can start to fight as hell on your preferred hue of gray and orange. Giovanni |
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From: Helen B. <he...@ii...> - 2008-10-09 07:39:18
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At 16:48 9/10/2008, Milan Babuskov wrote: >Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build >'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff >can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch. Why do you think the current website does not work that way? How often do you study our URLs? ;-) HB |
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From: Milan B. <mi...@pa...> - 2008-10-09 09:57:06
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Helen Borrie wrote: >> Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build >> 'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff >> can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch. > > Why do you think the current website does not work that way? I really did not think about current website at all. I was just hoping that the new website would work that way. > How often do you study our URLs? ;-) As you probably noted by the "icon issue", I hardly find the time to study URLs at flamerobin website, not to mention any other. So the answer would be: never :) -- Milan Babuskov http://www.flamerobin.org http://www.guacosoft.com |
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From: Helen B. <he...@ii...> - 2008-10-09 04:19:52
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At 20:32 8/10/2008, you wrote: >Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few >designs for the new firebirdsql.org website As an exercise in cosmetics, it is interesting...he's proposing we change our colour scheme from red-on-green to Firefox's orange-and-blue look. If we go with that, it is an open invitation to the Firefox roadies to slashdot us. >He asked for feedback It's not clear what feedback is wanted. The colour scheme, fonts, etc., are driven by a CSS that can be changed in a heartbeat. New images for the navigator menu would take a little longer (and, I mean, a LITTLE). IOW, if a new colour scheme is being proposed, we can run a variety of proposals on the live site without a lot of effort. >and what should be done next For Bandean, nothing, I suggest - unless he is happy to carry on creating mockups that have no association with any requirements. Marius, in case you missed the posting of 6 days ago, please visit http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php?op=devel&sub=web&id=main_pending So far, exactly 0 suggestions have appeared in the Tracker and no response whatsoever has come from the members of the group that began the initiative. If Bandean *is* going to continue doing mockups as an exercise, it might make sense to get the spelling right. It's not generally a good idea to knock letters out of words as way to make them fit inside an outline. ;-) For others - if you want to walk your talk then what are you waiting for? For example - a far from exhaustive list -- 1. If you don't like the way the website content is partitioned currently then come up with groupings that you like better. 2. Make some realistic proposals about getting *content* onto Firebird's own website, rather than spread around the 'net in a variety of places. 3. Tell us what your web talents are and in what ways you are both ABLE and WILLING to help Firebird. 4. Describe content management techniques that you envisage as having a specific value for Firebird and its community. ... and so on. Helen |
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From: Milan B. <mi...@pa...> - 2008-10-09 06:49:44
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Giovanni Premuda wrote: > I've seen dozens of project fail this way, when the designer simply > throws the towel. Me too. > These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public > image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown > them in frivolous and subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on > the current structure. Afterwards you can start to fight as hell on > your preferred hue of gray and orange. FWIW, I agree. Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build 'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch. -- Milan Babuskov http://www.flamerobin.org http://www.guacosoft.com |
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From: Dmitry Y. <fir...@ya...> - 2008-10-09 07:02:26
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Milan Babuskov wrote: > >> These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public >> image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown >> them in frivolous and subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on >> the current structure. Afterwards you can start to fight as hell on >> your preferred hue of gray and orange. > > FWIW, I agree. > > Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build > 'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff > can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch. Sounds reasonable :-) Dmitry |
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From: Lester C. <le...@ls...> - 2008-10-09 07:32:48
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Dmitry Yemanov wrote: > Milan Babuskov wrote: >>> These are professional designs, any of these would be a 2000% public >>> image improvement for the site, and for Firebird. Please don't drown >>> them in frivolous and subjective disputes, and choose one to be used on >>> the current structure. Afterwards you can start to fight as hell on >>> your preferred hue of gray and orange. >> FWIW, I agree. >> >> Hopefully the designed would use some kind of modular approach (build >> 'pieces' from PHP, use CSS for every possible style, etc.) so that stuff >> can later be changed without re-doing it from scratch. > > Sounds reasonable :-) So what about the existing content engine that is already running? Any of these proposed themes can be added to that and even made switchable with very little work. Existing content can easily be ported over, and the navigation can be changed very easily. I'm more than happy drop one of these proposed style sheets in place of the current 'firebird2' theme on http://wiki.firebirdsql.org/ We can even MAKE it fixed with if people insist ;) but something that scales to the browser capabilities makes a lot more sense these days? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php |
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From: Pavel C. <pc...@ib...> - 2008-10-09 12:32:51
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marius popa napsal(a): > Bandean Lorand (one of our designers) proposed and worked on an few > designs for the new firebirdsql.org website > He asked for feedback and what should be done next Wow, that was quick :-) > http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design1.jpg > http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design2.jpg > http://reea.net/clients/firebirdfoundation/design3.jpg Well, I understand that these are just quick mock-ups that rehash the current website just to showcase the potential, so I'll judge them as such. My first impression when I saw them was that Bandean is a man we're waited for so long, because he was able to put up few proposals that are "almost there" with very little information what we're looking for. For me it's clear sign that he has the right kind of artistic intuition and professionalism needed to come with truly amazing design when we'll get our ducks in line and feed him with our requirements, and I'm looking forward to our cooperation on new Firebird web site. Now to the designs: - The first one is too cold. The red and scarce use of orange doesn't really fits well into mostly blue palette. - The second one is too "flashy", because there is too much bright orange for otherwise light blue-toned colours. I see that first two designs are attempts to came with design that meets the request for "corporate yet firebirdy theme", as blue+grey+white palette is corporate one while orange is firebirdy. Unfortunately, these colours don't fit together at all. Thanks to Bandean everyone can see that now, so we can move forward :-) - In third design, Bandean gave up on "corporate" palette and came with "sexy firebird" theme and it's clearly the step in right direction. However, it's "too sexy", so we'd need to "scale it down" a bit. The black page border is at fault here. Without it (just with good old white border), it would look more corporate as required. We can play a bit with grey scale and shadows, borders and frames here to keep contrast for main page content. So I see the third one as best starting point for next iteration. 1. The header is almost perfect, it just needs to be lowered a bit: by removing the donate button (we'll put it on download page and other most visited areas, it doesn't need to be in page header) and by putting the menu bar on the side of logo image. 2. The colour scheme is good. The soft orange used on sidebar is nice, but we need to avoid heavy use of areas with vivid orange backgrounds (like title box and attention box in example design). We can try to play with orange scale here or better try to use various frames (solid, fading etc.) for these areas instead solid background. 3. Change the page border as described before. 4. We have to find the style for most frequently used elements: H1-4, hyper links, EM, PRE/source code listings, BR, various boxes (for tips, side notes etc.). However, this is all about basic theme / skin. We also need to define the basic site layout, and I will create a separate thread for its discussion. best regards Pavel Cisar IBPhoenix Firebird Project QA & website |
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From: Roman R. <ro...@ro...> - 2008-10-09 13:01:46
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> However, this is all about basic theme / skin. We also need to define > the basic site layout, and I will create a separate thread for its > discussion. Agree. Just a tip - when we start to talk about layout, it would be good to see these sites before: http://www.mysql.com http://www.postgresql.org http://www.ingres.com/ Also these might be of interest: http://www.eclipse.org http://www.openoffice.org Roman |
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